Build Advice

[Prak]

figured I'd start a general build advice thread, since all the others are specific. Maybe we can keep this around?

Anyway. My friend wants to start a new D&D game. Between my general love of goblins and having just read the new discworld novel Snuff, which pretty well distilled why I like the creatures, I'm looking at playing a goblin ranger who aims to avenge his race for all the wrongs committed against it, and all the marginalization, wanton slaughter, and maligning.

The build rules are Core+1 book per player (and I'll have to walk GM through anything I use from that one book), 1st level.

I remember it being said that, weak as goblins may be, give them ranger levels and they will tear your shit up. So I'm just looking for general mid-range optimization advice, and feedback on actually taking Humans as a favoured enemy. It might make sense from a character standpoint, but mechanically it could be very harmful.

[Winnah]

Small size gives a +4 to hide, they also get a +4 Move Silently and Ride, in addition to a dex bonus, so those skills are going to be ahead of the curve when you start the game.

That lends itself to a stealthy, mounted archer. May as well take a lance as a back up weapon in order to charge opponents.

Couple of prestige classes stand out to me, assuming the game makes it to the poiint where they can be aquired.

Dark Hunter. Complete Warrior. Potentially great for an archer, as Darkvision is enhanced.

Stonedeath Assassin. Races of Short. Goblin only assassin prestige class. Geared toward fighting underground. Signature ability petrifies enemies, Dwarfs and Gnomes have a penalty to save.

As for the favoured enemy, I can't comment. If the campaign will feature a lot of humans, then the ability may come in handy.

[koz]

Basically, I echo the mounted archer thing. You can ride on a wolf (which is fucking awesome), and the fact that you're Small hurts a lot less. However, what you REALLY want to be doing is finding some kind of multiplicative damage. I'd aim for Dread Commando, and pick up some Greater Manyshot goodness to spread your skirmish around. I'd also recommend picking up the bow that lets you power-shoot (not sure what it's from - probably MiC).

[Korwin]

D&D . . . Edition?
The Ranger comment... 4e?

[koz]

D&D . . . Edition?
The Ranger comment... 4e?

Reading is pro. 4rry rangers don't have favoured enemy.

[Korwin]

D&D . . . Edition?
The Ranger comment... 4e?

Reading is pro. 4rry rangers don't have favoured enemy.

They dont? So its 2e? (have as much 2e exp. as 4e - None)
Never saw an worthwhile 3.x Ranger build. (actually played, maybe because of this negative experience I missed those awesome Ranger builds.)

[Korwin]

Assuming 3e and looking at the stats (your 'book' cant be the tome of Awesome PDF, right?)
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/goblin.htm
Rogue or Tome of Battle Multiclass seems worthwhile.

[Lago PARANOIA]

The bow feat that lets you power attack is in Silver Marches as a 3rd-level PrC feature from Peerless Archer.

That along with the 3.0E Order of the Bow Initiate is what let noncaster archers keep up on the damage curve and even outclass cleric archers at the top of their 3.0E game. Just in the damage curve, though.

Nowadays, though, the 3.5E Order of the Bow Initiate sucks. If at all possible you should get your DM to let you use the Sword and Fist version, but, considering that it's one of the few noncaster PrCs that are good for almost all 10 levels and it lets noncasters fight competently without resorting to any exploits or weird rules interactions it'll almost certainly be banned -- especially with the mentality most games have that just because it's in 3.5E it should automatically replace 3.0E content.

That said, you can still cobble together a pretty competent archer just by taking Peerless Archer (Silver Marches) and Deepwood Sniper (Master of the Wild), both 3.0E books. It won't be enough to get you through the entire game, but as long as all you care about is stealth and damage it'll get you well into the teens.

[Korwin]

Sadly he only gets one additional book.
Or can you use the books of other players?

[Prak]

D&D . . . Edition?
The Ranger comment... 4e?

Reading is pro. 4rry rangers don't have favoured enemy.

They dont? So its 2e? (have as much 2e exp. as 4e - None)
Never saw an worthwhile 3.x Ranger build. (actually played, maybe because of this negative experience I missed those awesome Ranger builds.)

...it's 3.5. The only person who plays 2e anymore is Shad.

[koz]

Lago - there was an item in the 3.5 cycle that let you Power Attack with a bow, although it wasn't specifically called out as Power Attack. I'll have to dig around to find it, but I know it exists.

In terms of ranger builds - most of the really good ones relied on the multiclass-with-scout feat and Greater Manyshot. Just sayin'.

[Korwin]

So you want to combine a weak race with an weak class and hope to be not weak?
Do I remember right and that Ranger/Scout multiclass feat is in another book than the Scout class?
Looking at Lagos advise, will you be allowed to take an 3.0 book?
Could you get more than one book?

If you want archery you could be an Cleric instead. But you wrote Ranger...
What do you want your character be able to do? Maybe (probably) there is another class who can do it better.

Hell I would prefer an Goblin Frenzied Berserker to an Ranger anytime.

[koz]

'Weak' is a relative statement. A goblin ranger is a powerhouse in a game with a drow monk and a dwarf sorcerer who dumped Charisma.

Yes, the scout and that feat are in different books - which is why I wasn't proposing it as a viable build. Dread Commando + Ranger is workable given the restrictions, however. It means giving up the power-shooting bow, but honestly, you get skirmish damage to multiply and I actually don't give a fuck.

What level is this game supposedly starting at?

[BearsAreBrown]

The boring solution is to go Cleric Archer and pick Spell Compendium.

Assuming a commitment to ranger, Ranger/Scout is out because Scout is CAdv and Swift Hunter is CSco. You could pick Champions of Valor and go Sword Of The Arcane Order to expand your spell list a bit. Ranger is a hard class to do much with on a book limitation. Picking S&F OotBI is a good option though.

[koz]

The boring solution is to go Cleric Archer and pick Spell Compendium.

Assuming a commitment to ranger, Ranger/Scout is out because Scout is CAdv and Swift Hunter is CSco. You could pick Champions of Valor and go Sword Of The Arcane Order to expand your spell list a bit. Ranger is a hard class to do much with on a book limitation.

What this guy said, essentially. Sword of the Arcane Order is FR-only, so it might be a bit of an issue. My suggestion is basically independent of setting, which helps, and also avoids having to actually use ranger spells, which are a joke and a half.

[Lago PARANOIA]

I find the 'one book' rule extremely retarded and just one more way in which DMs fellate spellcasters.

[Previn]

Lago - there was an item in the 3.5 cycle that let you Power Attack with a bow, although it wasn't specifically called out as Power Attack. I'll have to dig around to find it, but I know it exists.

This?

Anywho... favored Enemy is nice, but not that impressive. In 3.5 it's only +2 to damage per time you take it, so with 3 favored enemies you're going to have a bonus of +6/+0/+0, +4/+2/+0 or +2/+2/+2 at 10th level. Consider it a side benefit rather than the center piece.

[erik]

I had a halfling archer in living greyhawk 3.5, I imagine he would have worked as a goblin depending upon deity stuff.

In 3.5 there really aren't any good archer prestige classes, so I went for Pious Templar since it really is as good as any archer prestige class left in 3.5. Dunno if there are any bow-goblin deities however, or even any non-evil ones. I imagine they would be implemented if you were wanting a non-evil goblin society.

Anywho, I went with a martial mutt leading up to it.

1 Ranger (PBS, track)
2 Fighter (precise shot)
3 Barbarian (true believer)
4 Ranger (rapid shot)
5 Fighter (weapon focus)
6-10 Pious Templar (6- extra rages, 8-weapon spec, 9-ranged weapon mastery, 9-pre-req)
... then some Beast Master or Animal Lord or whatever along with Natural Bond in order to have a more survivable/resummonable wolf companion. I never got that far in the LG campaign before it ended tho.

Easiest would be taking Leadership at 6 for a proper canine cohort though. Awakened Dire Wolf, Winter Wolf, Worg, Whatever.

I never really consider the Mounted Archery feat since if the rest of your party cannot keep up then it doesn't really matter.

[koz]

Not that one, Previn, but it is nice to know WotC always recycle!

[Prak]

I find the 'one book' rule extremely retarded and just one more way in which DMs fellate spellcasters.

The DM isn't like us, with our exhaustive familiarity with lots of books and ability to roll with "Hey, can I use this?" regardless of what "this" is. I call him a luddite, due to his comparative dislike of being online, and he doesn't have a huge collection of books, real or digital. The way he deals with this is an insular "I want to use core only" philosophy, not out of a weird concept of balance, but because of primary familiarity with core. The way I deal with this is "Can each player choose a single non-core book to bring in?"

Sinister: The game is starting level 1, like I said in the op.

All: I was going ranger due to having heard that goblins make pretty kickass ones. Overall what I want is a worg riding goblin out to avenge his race and kick ass on the other races that treat him and his like fodder for leveling. So, the character definitely wants to have a martial bent, using weapons to kick ass rather than spells, though spells aren't amiss. Also, he probably wants to be a goblin all the time, rather than, saying, turning into a bear, put it down to a pride thing, and wanting the enemy to know it was a goblin that took them down.

So, what we're looking at is:

• Good with weapons (ie, proficient in a nice amount, especially melee, even if he primarily attacks at range, and probably having no less than a 3/4 BAB)
• Doesn't fight through changing shape, summoning, or anything else that removes the fact that a goblin is taking the enemy down. Worgs, dire rats, and other creatures associated with goblins as allies are fine, but he stays a goblin (Druid might be ok, if I choose a book that gives an alternate class feature in place of wild shape. Necromancer of the undead army flavour is pretty much out.).
• I'm uncertain what alignment he'll be, exactly, but given that the personality and goal is founded in rebellion and anger, he's at best neutral, more likely chaotic. Given that he'll regularly be terminating humanoid enemies with extreme prejudice means he's at least a Belkar level of evil.
• Goblins are sneaky and fast. The easiest way to make a goblin formidable is going to be to use a class that already uses stealth as it's primary weapon. Rogue would of course be a good choice.

[koz]

Goblin rogues are badass motherfuckers. Since sneak attack isn't related to size in any way, you're gonna be ripping people apart pretty hard and pretty fast.

You probably don't wanna go down the Den pathway of rogueness - this GM of yours will probably not be happy with it. A ranger-rogue multiclass (say, ranger 2/rogue 16/some other thing 2) seems like a viable option. Goblins have rogue as a favoured class, so you should be OK with that.

I advocate Leadership for a worg mount also - that's the easiest way to keep it level-appropriate, and makes for an awesome companion. Since rangers are proficient with lances, you'll make a hell of a mounted charger, and if you crank initiative, it'll be even more awesome. You can follow up your lance charge with a doubly-drawn pair of something sharp, hopping off your mount, and using it to flank with.

For your extra book, you could go with a range of things. I'm not actually sure what would be best, to be honest.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

I wouldn't bother with Sword of the Arcane Order in a build unless one could use the Mystic Ranger variant in conjunction. The MR is ok without SotAO in a mounted archer build focusing on some of the swift action spells. Rangers seem like one of those classes that do best chaining several ACFs and substitution levels together, ending up doing silly things like hiding in plain sight as a flying young shadow dragon.

[Korwin]

Sinister: The game is starting level 1, like I said in the op.

So leadership for an mount is out (in the near future)

All: I was going ranger due to having heard that goblins make pretty kickass ones. Overall what I want is a worg riding goblin out to avenge his race and kick ass on the other races that treat him and his like fodder for leveling. So, the character definitely wants to have a martial bent, using weapons to kick ass rather than spells, though spells aren't amiss. Also, he probably wants to be a goblin all the time, rather than, saying, turning into a bear, put it down to a pride thing, and wanting the enemy to know it was a goblin that took them down.

Sounds Druidic to me. Concentrate on lance/charge combat on your Animal.

So, what we're looking at is:

• Good with weapons (ie, proficient in a nice amount, especially melee, even if he primarily attacks at range, and probably having no less than a 3/4 BAB)

Can do - Druid

[*]Doesn't fight through changing shape, summoning, or anything else that removes the fact that a goblin is taking the enemy down. Worgs, dire rats, and other creatures associated with goblins as allies are fine, but he stays a goblin (Druid might be ok, if I choose a book that gives an alternate class feature in place of wild shape. Necromancer of the undead army flavour is pretty much out.).

Is there an Variant who trades out wild shape?
Druid gets wild shape at Lvl. 5, you might not get this far.
Or use an PRC who doesn’t advance wild shape.

You probably cant pull an Supermount with only one book and your mount would overshadow your Goblin anyway.

[Winnah]

Purely in relation to the mount, if you go that way. Complete Warrior allows you to aquire a Worg or a Winter Wolf as an Improved Familiar (feat).

Intelligent, capable of speech (hello command word items), decent racial bonuses to skills and special abilities. Also shares your BAB, skill ranks and Saves. As a mount, could be very effective, especially as the Share Spells ability ensures they will be within 5' for most combats.

Of course, that will not be exceptional with access only to Complete Warrior, as a few options require a few ther sources would really improve on the potential of a familliar mount. Could do worse than a Ranger/Wizard or a Hexblade though.

[Prak]

Korwin: RE:trading out Wildshape
yeah.

Druid
Gain
Bonus to Armor Class when unarmored (as monk, including Wisdom bonus to AC), fast movement (as monk), favored enemy (as ranger), swift tracker (as ranger), Track feat (as ranger).
Lose
Armor and shield proficiency, wild shape (all versions).

ye gods, that can be combined with the Druidic Avenger alternate class from UA too:

The druidic avenger channels her inner fury to wreak vengeance upon those who injure the natural world. This comes at a price, however, since the avenger must give up some of her own sensitivity to nature.

Class Skills
Add Intimidate to the avenger's list of class skills. Eliminate Diplomacy from the avenger's list of class skills.

Class Features
The druidic avenger has all the standard druid class features, except as noted below.

Animal Companion
An avenger does not gain the service of an animal companion.

Fast Movement (Ex)
A druidic avenger's base land speed is faster than the norm for her race by 10 feet. This ability is identical to the barbarian ability of the same name.

Rage (Ex)
An avenger can enter a furious rage, identical to that of a barbarian. An avenger can use this ability once per day at 1st level, and one additional time per day for every five levels above 1st.

An avenger does not gain the greater rage, indomitable will, or mighty rage abilities.

Spontaneous Casting
An avenger cannot channel stored spell energy into summoning spells.

Tireless Rage (Ex)
At 17th level and higher, an avenger no longer becomes fatigued at the end of her rage.

Wild Empathy
A druidic avenger takes a -4 penalty on wild empathy checks.