Rant about ToB maneuvers in 3.x

[JonSetanta]

It's old and tired, but it must be done, since I had a lengthy verbal debate with a friend about spells vs. maneuvers.

I said maneuvers are so underpowered (despite Iron Heart Surge jokes) that they should be at-will or at least have the utility of spells to keep up in a series of out-of-the-book encounters that only true spellcasters could defeat.
My friend said they are broken due to their frequency of use, and any user in melee combat with a spellcaster at any level is sure to win. No, he doesn't visit forums and does not pay attention to CharOp threads, but I wasn't one to beat him with evidence until he agreed.
We left it at that, rather than have an RPG dukeout between Wizard (mine) and a supposedly overpowered Warblade (his), both tweaked as far as each could using their respective books (I would use core RAW only), but that was a year ago and he's given up since then to form a new RPG group wherein no Tome of Battle material is allowed.
Oh fucking well.


Anyway, I figured... why are ToB maneuvers using that stupid recharge mechanic?
• One class has them refresh randomly, or some card-shuffling nonsense that grants the powers progressively as each round passes. Whatever. I have yet to meet anyone that ever played a Crusader.
• One class refreshes all maneuvers with a Standard Action or single basic melee attack. This is fine, but pointless. And the Warblade's selection sucks.
• One class refreshes one single maneuver mid-battle with a Standard Action. This is shit and stupid even while Swordsage gets the better schools.


So, with a playtest a few months ago, I scrounged together a small group willing to play low-level D&D 3.5, and I gave them maneuvers that each had a recharge time of at least 1 round, sometimes more if the maneuver was higher level, but everyone was L3 so that didn't matter.
I gave all noncasters access to a small pool of whichever maneuvers they wished, like a better combination of Swordsage and Warblade.
Worked like a charm.
Turns were varied and advantage shifted back and forth between NPC monster and PC party (the whole party wanted to play maneuver users by the way, probably due to the house rule change). No one ever "ran out" of powers.
They were so busy with the fun of essentially unlimited maneuvers that they didn't care about the recharge time, or the fact that enemies were doing the same thing (with some spellcasters to mix it up, which were using a per-hour mana limit that allowed many low level spells cast each hour... although every close-combat encounter was won by the warrior party, it didn't matter if those wizards were casting 3 per day or 100 per day)



...



And then I got to thinking, why have a recharge time at all?
So I removed the recharge time just before the group fell apart, as all RPG groups are destined to at some point in time.

At the present moment I'm sold on the idea that maneuvers are so effective at replacing the basic attack option that they SHOULD BE the new basic attack.
Essentially, a 4e at-will. A whole list of them.


The only problem remains; how to prevent a maneuver-user from becoming like a Street Fighter character spamming down-forward-punch.

Status effects seem the way to go.
You'd have some powers that apply status effects, some that deal extra damage, some that deal different status debuffs or more damage against targets affected by status debuffs, and of course all maneuvers scale with level in 5-level segments to keep the overall list of maneuvers small.

I would also count "opponent is on the ground", "opponent is pressed into a wall", and "opponent is in the air" as each to their own status debuff for positional variety that doesn't require squares and measuring distance.

---

This is the compiled list of maneuvers I made. Some scale, some don't, mostly inspired by comics and TV shows portraying competent warriors.

Maneuver Types

Melee Strike
Action: 1 Melee attack action
Recharge: End of turn
Range: Melee
Area: Single target
Saving Throw: As by maneuver, upon hit (successful save negates)

Ranged Strike
Action: 1 Thrown or Fired Projectile attack action
Recharge: End of turn
Range: Use range of projectile
Area: Single target
Saving Throw: As by maneuver, upon hit (successful save negates)

Counter
Action: 1 Immediate Melee attack action, once each round
Recharge: End of turn
Range: Melee
Area: Single attack

Boost
Action: 1 Swift action
Recharge: End of turn
Range: Self
Area: Personal
Duration: Either 1 round or 1 minute

Stance
Action: 1 Swift action
Recharge: End of turn
Range: Self
Area: Personal
Duration: Automatically continues until canceled as a Free or Immediate action



Special Values

Combat Check
Level + STR bonus + size modifier + other bonuses for the weapon you wield

Combat DC
10 + ½ Level + DEX bonus + STR bonus + size modifier + other bonuses for the weapon you wield






Slot Level 1

AIR SLASH
Maneuver Slot 1
Melee Strike
Requires: An attack that deals Slashing damage
Your melee attack is changed into a Force projectile that deals Slashing damage.
The projectile’s range is Close, but is otherwise treated as a melee attack with reach.

FISHER SPEAR
Maneuver Slot 1
Melee Strike
Requires: An attack that deals Piercing damage
If your target is Prone or swimming, you get +4 to attack.
If they are hit they can’t make Move actions for 1 round.

WING PIN
Maneuver Slot 1
Ranged Strike
Requires: An attack that deals Piercing damage
If your target is in the air or flying, they can’t jump or fly for 10 rounds and fall at a rate of 60 feet each round.

HALTING STRIKE
Maneuver Slot 1
Melee Strike
Your target stops all movement for the round and can’t make Move actions until the end of the round.

LUNGE
Maneuver Slot 1
Melee Strike
Increase your reach by 5 feet per maximum maneuver slot level for this maneuver.

SAVAGE BLOW
Maneuver Slot 1
Melee Strike
Add your level to damage dealt with this maneuver.

FULL DODGE
Maneuver Slot 1
Counter
Make a Reflex save, also adding all Deflection and non-Dexterity bonuses that normally go to your AC, against the attack roll or area effect DC that targets you. If you succeed, the attack misses.

BLOCK
Maneuver Slot 1
Counter
Requires: Wielding a weapon or shield
Make a Combat Check against the attack roll or area effect DC that targets you or an ally within melee reach. If you succeed, the damage portion of the attack or the area effect does not harm you or your ally.

MAGIC SYNTHESIS
Maneuver Slot 1
Boost
Gain Damage Reduction 5 per Benchmark / Magic, and Energy Resistance against all types 5 per Benchmark, for 1 minute.


Slot Level 2

LANCE IMPALE
Maneuver Slot 2
Melee Strike
Requires: An attack that deals Piercing damage
If your target is Prone or against a wall, the target is Impaled to the surface. You can’t make further attacks with that weapon used but the target can’t make Move actions until either you or they spend an Attack action to remove this condition.
Removing the Impaled condition readies your weapon for use again.

WHIRLWIND BLADE
Maneuver Slot 2
Melee Strike
Requires: An attack that deals Slashing damage
Your attack hits all targets surrounding you that have an AC no higher than your attack roll.

HEADSLAP
Maneuver Slot 2
Melee Strike
Requires: An attack that deals Bludgeoning damage
If your attack roll beats your target’s AC by at least 5, you may cause one of the following status effects to your opponent for 2 rounds;
• Deaf
• Blind
• Can’t speak

CRITICAL STAB
Maneuver Slot 2
Melee Strike
Requires: An attack that deals Piercing damage
Using this maneuver is an Immediate action if you made a successful critical hit against an opponent.
You deal 2 Constitution damage to your opponent.

HIT AND RUN
Maneuver Slot 2
Melee Strike
You may make a Move action as an Immediate action after using this maneuver as long as the target you attempted to hit is flanked, Provokes, or denied their Dexterity bonus to AC for the round. This movement uses your Move action for the next round.

VOID MOVEMENT
Maneuver Slot 2
Melee Strike
You may make a Move action as part of this maneuver. You are invisible for the movement, until either you attack or the Move action is complete.
If you are hit while making your invisible Move action, you become immediately visible.

SUNDERING BLOCK
Maneuver Slot 2
Counter
Requires: Wielding a weapon or shield
Make a Combat Check against the attack roll or area effect DC that targets you or an ally within melee reach. If you succeed, the damage portion of the attack or the area effect does not harm you or your ally, and you may make a Sunder attempt against the weapon attacking you or your ally if it is within melee reach.

DOUBLE JUMP
Maneuver Slot 2
Boost
As an Immediate action either during or after a Jump you may treat the space you occupy as part of solid terrain, and Jump again in a different direction.

WARPSPASM
Maneuver Slot 2
Boost
For 1 minute you gain a +4 Enhancement bonus to Strength per Benchmark, you count as one size larger whenever beneficial (such as opposed combat checks and wielding weapons), and your reach increases by 5 feet.


Slot Level 3

SEVER SLASH
Maneuver Slot 3
Melee Strike
Requires: An attack that deals Slashing damage
Using this maneuver is an Immediate action if you made a successful critical hit against an opponent.
You sever an opponent’s limb of your choice.

PULVERIZE
Maneuver Slot 3
Melee Strike
Requires: A two-handed weapon attack that deals Bludgeoning damage
You ignore the Hardness of an object, or the Damage Reduction of a target denied their Dexterity bonus, and deal an additional 10 damage.
You may sacrifice any number of melee attacks before using this maneuver. For each attack you sacrifice, this attack deals an additional 10 damage.

REBOUND TOSS
Maneuver Slot 3
Ranged Strike (Thrown only)
Requires: An attack that deals Bludgeoning damage
After your thrown attack, the weapon bounces back to your hand if it hit your target.

CRATER BLOW
Maneuver Slot 3
Melee Strike
You make a normal attack, but also create a burst that deals an equal amount of damage as a Force effect to everything within 5 foot radius per level other than you. Everyone else within that area gets a Reflex save against your Combat DC for half damage.

AIR PATH
Maneuver Slot 3
Melee Strike
Requires: An attack that deals Slashing damage
Your melee attack is changed into a Force projectile that deals Slashing damage.
You damage everything within a 10-foot wide line created out to Medium distance. Everyone else within that area gets a Reflex save against your Combat DC for half damage.

WALK ON WATER
Maneuver Slot 3
Stance
You may treat liquid as solid ground. If the liquid is dangerously hot, cold, or acidic you still take damage from being in contact with it, but only 1d6 damage per round.

TOWER LEAP
Maneuver Slot 3
Boost
Your Jump distance for this round is multiplied by 10.

MAGIC SYNTHESIS, GREATER
Maneuver Slot 3
Boost
Gain the following as nonmagical effects for 1 minute;
• Damage Reduction 5 per Benchmark / Magic
• Energy Resistance against all types 5 per Benchmark
• +4 to saves against Cold, Fire, and Poison effects
Gain the following as magical effects for 1 minute;
• +4 Enhancement bonus to Strength
• Haste
• Endure Elements

SAVAGE BLOW, GREATER
Maneuver Slot 3
Melee Strike
Add 2 times your level to damage dealt with this maneuver.


Slot Level 4

WHIRLWIND BLADE, GREATER
Maneuver Slot 4
Melee Strike
Requires: An attack that deals Slashing damage
Your attack hits all targets surrounding you that have an AC no higher than your attack roll.
Opponents hit must make a Fortitude save against your Combat DC or be knocked Prone.

DIMENSION STRIKE
Maneuver Slot 4
Melee Strike
You briefly open a Dimension Door that only your attack travels through.
You may attack a single target within Close distance that you can see.
If your attack is made unarmed with a grasping limb, you may attempt to grapple your target for 1 round or grab an unattended item that fits in your palm.

PURE TOUGHNESS
Maneuver Slot 4
Counter
Requires: You are aware of the attack
Make a Fortitude save adding your Strength bonus, or Combat Check against the attack roll or save DC of an attack or effect targeting you.
If you succeed, the attack or effect is negated, and any non-magical weapon used to attack you is destroyed.

WALK ON AIR
Maneuver Slot 4
Stance
You may treat air as solid ground whenever beneficial for you.


Slot Level 5

DIAGONAL SLICE
Maneuver Slot 5
Melee Strike
Requires: An attack that deals Slashing damage
Add 3 times your level to damage dealt with this maneuver.
If this attack drops a target to 0 HP, they are cut cleanly in half.
Target Bloodied: Add an additional 2 times your level to damage dealt with this maneuver.

METEOR SMASH
Maneuver Slot 5
Melee Strike
Requires: An attack that deals Slashing damage
Add 3 times your level to damage dealt with this maneuver.
If this attack drops a target to 0 HP, they are pulverized beyond recognition.
Target Bloodied: The target is knocked Prone.

VITAL PUNCTURE
Maneuver Slot 5
Melee Strike
Requires: An attack that deals Slashing damage
Add 3 times your level to damage dealt with this maneuver.
If this attack drops a target to 0 HP, they are pulverized beyond recognition.
Target Bloodied: You deal 2 Constitution damage.

TELEPORT STRIKE
Maneuver Slot 5
Melee Strike
You teleport up to Medium distance before attacking as part of one of your melee attacks for the round.
You must either see the location or know of its existence.

CITY LEAP
Maneuver Slot 5
Boost
Your Jump distance for this round is multiplied by 100.

DEATH PROOF
Maneuver Slot 5
Boost
For 1 minute you are immune to Death effects and negative levels. Any attempt to affect you with such attacks removes this immunity and you can’t use this maneuver again for 1 round after.


Slot Level 6

DIMENSION STRIKE, GREATER
Maneuver Slot 6
Melee Strike
You briefly open a Dimension Door that only your attack travels through.
You may attack a single target within Long distance that you can see.
If your attack is made unarmed with a grasping limb, you may attempt to grapple your target for 5 rounds or grab an unattended item that fits in your palm.

HEAVENLY GUARDIAN DEFENSE
Maneuver Slot 6
Counter
You parry without fail a single attack that requires an attack roll or Reflex save; you may decide to use this maneuver after the attack defeats your AC or Reflex save. You must have a weapon readied and be aware of the attack.
Alternately you can use this maneuver to prevent an attack against any single being within melee reach.
This maneuver can’t be used for 1 minute after successfully preventing an attack.

SEVEN SHADOW EVASION
Maneuver Slot 6
Counter
You dodge without fail a single attack or area effect affecting you; you may decide to use this maneuver after the attack defeats your AC or save. You must be able to move and have your Dodge bonus applied to AC.
This maneuver can’t be used for 1 minute after successfully preventing an attack.

ADAMANT SKIN TECHNIQUE
Maneuver Slot 6
Boost
As an Immediate action you may use this technique even if unaware to an attack. Until the end of the round you are immune to one type of damage (one of the types that would affect you this round).
This maneuver can’t be used for 1 minute after successfully preventing any amount of damage.



Slot Level 7

MOUNTAIN LEAP
Maneuver Slot 5
Boost
Your Jump distance for this round is multiplied by 1000.

DEATH BLOW
Maneuver Slot 7
Melee Strike
Add 5 times your level to damage dealt with this maneuver.
If this attack drops a target to 0 HP, they are cut cleanly in half.
Target Bloodied: Add an additional 2 times your level to damage dealt with this maneuver.

[Seerow]

• One class has them refresh randomly, or some card-shuffling nonsense that grants the powers progressively as each round passes. Whatever. I have yet to meet anyone that ever played a Crusader.

I've played a Crusader, multiple times. It's actually pretty fun.



My take on it has always been that the maneuvers aren't limited use due to a real need for balance (after all there are the Idiot Crusader builds that have all of their maneuvers readied all the time), but to make things more interesting in play. Instead of spamming the same maneuver over and over, as a Crusader you have to work with what you have. As a warblade you have to choose if you'd rather use a different maneuver, or spend an action to get back the one you already used. It's not that using that one again would be overpowered, it's that using it again and again every round would be boring, because that's exactly what melee already does anyway.

[JonSetanta]

My thought experiment was to allow "movespam", but reward players for following a (not always guaranteed to work) series of debuff chains or repositioning the target to make a varied sequence of maneuvers more interesting.

And well met. You are THE FIRST Crusader player I've talked to, even though it's not in person.

[Seerow]

My thought experiment was to allow "movespam", but reward players for following a (not always guaranteed to work) series of debuff chains or repositioning the target to make a varied sequence of maneuvers more interesting.

Yeah, I saw the rest of the post on that, but honestly that's a lot of work for the developers and a ton of fiddly bits for players to remember. ToB may have gotten mixed reviews due to flavor, and melee cant have nice things mentality, but the mechanics themselves are relatively popular due to being simple and easy to track. While you can do a combo system or status effect system or whatever, WotC clearly wasn't interested in going there, and delivered a system that was playable and fun to use, while being easy to pick up and having minimal book keeping.

And well met. You are THE FIRST Crusader player I've talked to, even though it's not in person.

Clearly you need to talk to more players.

But seriously, try the Crusader for yourself. It's easiest to work with using some form of cards, but I've met people who use dice to determine what maneuvers are available and it works just as well. They tend to shine in low level games, but even at high level there's room to remain relevant, which isn't exactly a common thing among melee.

[souran]

The "reason" that all three flavors of melee replacement class have different recharge mechanics is because the book was basically a big playtest that they charged people money to try.

However: I have played all three and the crusader is a lot of fun. Actually, all 3 are enough fun and good enough at COMBAT to at least not make people playing warrior types feel like wizards/spellcasters totally school them at their area (even if they still can if played well).

I also agree with above posters who have indicated that the refresh systems exist mostly to get players to do different things each round instead of spamming their best attack. The whole point of the book was that people wanted to play figher types who had more to do than stand in one place and take full attack actions.

Because of that there really isn't a "balance" reason why people can't use their best attack each round. Honestly, I think thats why 4E encounter powers pretty much all do the same damage even if one is a leve 1 attack and anothre is a leve l3.

[HalcyonUmbra]

I feel this is relevant here.

Resource Management.

Charges The idea is that you have a limited number of super moves that you can do. This encourages nova attacks and hit-and-run tactics, and it increases the value of get out of jail free cards like super dodge and substitute because your enemies are doing the same thing.

Rage Bar The idea is that you have to do stuff in combat to unlock your super maneuvers. Done right, it encourages people to grind in longer combats and play defensively until they can let loose with their super moves.

Cool Down The idea is that you have to wait after using any maneuver before using it again. Encourages "rhythms" where characters use moves in the same order over and over again.

Warm Up Like Rage Bar, except that it's a simple amount of time in warming up a power before it is ready to use. This encourages ambushes.

WoF The characters have access to random abilities each round, which makes them use different abilities in different rounds but does not otherwise create patterns.

Drain The characters suffer a penalty on rounds after they use their super moves, which encourages players to attempt to time their ability usage to occur as close to the end of battle as possible.

Unlimited The characters can use whatever ability they want, whenever they want. This tends to create ability spam.

Now that's basically all there is. And all of them work and all of them have their uses.

[Lago PARANOIA]

I have seen Crusaders before but I have also seen Hexblades and Monks, too.

The Crusader mechanic and chassis just plain sucks. Where ToB classes really shine is damage/effect mitigation... and Crusaders (and to a lesser extent Swordsages) just plain do not have access to those schools.

Furthermore, at low levels the Crusader does not get enough discrete options in order to make power selection tactical or even interesting. If you gain a maneuver, you spam that motherfucker unless there's an action conflict. A resource management system that rewards you for not picking a power is just as important as one that does, otherwise the exercise becomes pointless.

The Crusader is so bad that it, understandably, poisoned peoples' perception of WoF for quite some time.

[Seerow]

Crusader made people complain about WoF, therefore it is bad.



Holy shit I thought people exaggerated about Lago bringing WoF into literally completely unrelated discussions, but here we have it.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Holy shit I thought people exaggerated about Lago bringing WoF into literally completely unrelated discussions, but here we have it.

If you're going to discuss why the Crusader sucks (which it does IMO) you also have to acknowledge the resource management system it uses since that's a big contributor to its suckiness.

Crusader is D&D's strongest attempt at using WoF and we're talking about the ToB resource management systems and how much the classes in that book sucked. So mind telling me how is it not related, other than your bald assertion?

[JonSetanta]

I feel this is relevant here.

It is! Thank you, that's like a dozen Frank dissertations on the subject in shorthand.

I'll get back to the rest of y'all in a bit.

[Koumei]

In Tale of Touhous/Acegame (I probably should continue that tale) one of the players played a Crusader. I didn't bother to learn the mechanics, I just let them do it, and there was no problem.

Basically, sometimes she'd pull the ability to smack an enemy for $TEXAS (in a party with a Vampire Spawn Cleric multiclass, a Mummy, and a Magic of Blue Totemist, so we're not talking a mega-powerful set-up here), and sometimes she'd hit foes for smaller damage but "Everyone else make an attack!" or "No DR need apply" or "and we all heal a bit".

It was kind of interesting, and because I knew the party wasn't Flasked Avengers and Wizards, I wasn't using the kind of foes that would curbstomp melee-dude parties so she handled just fine.

Mostly I make use of ToB by using feats (particularly in "You also get non-Tome feats at these levels" games or non-Tome games or games where you can spend (resource) to buy non-Tome feats) to snag a couple of handy powers and a stance - obviously, Sneak Attackers and high-Initiative melee attackers want to grab Assassin Stance ASAP, but even just grabbing a "Make a flying charge attack with +6d6 Fire damage... and you're invisible for it" type combo can be nice to start the combat.

[tussock]

Anyway, I figured... why are ToB maneuvers using that stupid recharge mechanic?

Lack of playtesting, just random 4e ideas. Author said to ditch them all, no recharging, no random Crusader deck, everyone just has all of them ready to use once until they rest.

Also, Warblade at d10 and no Weapon Aptitude, unless you give Fighters something to match (or don't use Fighters at all).

Make full attacks a standard action and you're good to go.

[OgreBattle]

Many 3e players find it to be more 'realistic' to have recharge mechanics for martial maneuvers to have a recharge mechanic. A common criticism of encounter powers is "so I FORGOT how to swing muh sword??? LOL DISASSOCIATIVE"

[Username17]

ToB was actually never supposed to be playable. It was a set of random ideas playtesting far out suggestions from 4e brainstorming sessions. It, along with Tome of Magic, and Magic of Incarnum were actually there to playtest and showcase different powers and resource schedules. Not to expand the game by themselves.

ToB was the most popular of the "here's a pile of random ideas for you to pay us money to playtest" books. And because of that, it informed actual 4e production more than it should have. You'll recall that the first release of 4e things had attacks named "Golden Wyvern Adept Tail Attack" or some shit, because they decided that ToB maneuver naming conventions should be used. Only a hugely negative board response to that preview got attacks mostly reverted to sensible names. Of course, even then the 4e people couldn't resist putting "White Ravens" all over their Warlord abilities.

Edit: I think it's interesting that based on what they "learned" from the success and failure of the different test balloon books, that 4e almost certainly would have been a better game had Magic of Incarnum been the book that proved most popular. Imagine if instead of what they actually put out, that everyone prepared abilities by having slots and mana that they could dedicate to abilities. And further imagine that based on the success of Magic of Blue they decided that everyone's mana had to be color coordinated.

What would have happened is that magic items would be something that would go into a slot and require mana to activate, which would automagically make the Christmas Tree go away because using iron armbands of power would displace one of your actual class abilities. And then multiclassing would have been easy because people would have arbitrarily different colored mana, so being a Warlord/Totemist would just give you some amount of Red Mana and some amount of Blue Mana to assign to abilities. And characters would be less boring than 4e characters, because all of them would have abilities to prepare into different slots.

In short: a much much better game. Even though Magic of Blue was the worst test balloon book and Tome of Weeaboo Fightan Magic was the best, what they actually were apparently testing in the markets with those books made the success of ToB lead to the worst possible 4e gaming experience.

-Username17

[Korwin]

I liked ToB, i see the similiaries to 4e, so how did they make 4e so boring?

[ModelCitizen]

The power refresh mechanic is really important. The tactical consideration of whether a warblade can get off a refresh on round 2 or 3 to use your big shit again on round 4 honestly adds more depth to the class than any of the actual maneuvers do. 3e fights are also much faster and higher stakes. Enemies fast so you have to move to a new target, and because of the full attack rules you want to anticipate that and have Standard strikes or movement powers ready. Shit CC's you so you have to economize defensive options like IHS and Moment of the Perfect Mind.

Warblades have meaningful round-by-round tactical considerations. They use lots of powers per time and in orders that vary based on the evolving state of the encounter. 4e didn't get that. They thought ToB was cool because of Mearls' one-power one-use fetish and missed the context in which it worked. A 4e fighter isn't a warblade. He's a 3e fighter who spent all his feats on Martial Study and took nothing but Standard strikes.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Because the 4E D&D game designers weren't able to separate peoples' like of the classes from their lukewarm feelings on the underlying mechanics. We liked ToB despite all of its flaws because it was an honest and full-assed attempt to make a sword-based character that was any good -- and despite all expectations, they succeeded in a fashion. If you min-max a ToB carefully (but in an intuitive way) they can actually exceed the typical shelf life for a 3E D&D non-caster by several levels which is an amazing accomplishment.

We did not and do not like the framework for ToB however. The resource management system for the ToB is completely dreadful for all of the classes. Spell charges are one of the worst setups for resource management and this system quite exposes the failings and follies. Quite ironically the Warblade was actually the most tactical, since you had to decide between leaving yourself open by not having access to a defensive maneuver or pressing the offensive with a recharge or a boost. Which would have actually made 4E D&D combat significantly less boring.

Though, that still doesn't explain why 4E D&D classes sucked so much thematically. ToB classes are much cooler than any of their 4E D&D counterparts, even when there's move duplication. Desert Wind and Shadow Hand are just straight-up cooler than anything ever done by a sword-based class in 4E D&D. That one you can't blame on ToB, I'm afraid. ToB incidentally showed the correct way to do a 'ki' or a 'chi' power source. It's not an Asian-themed power source in that book, as you see all kinds of classes (meaning, European-fantasy themed for the most part) doing weeaboo things.

[JonSetanta]

I'm getting a general sense from most of you that the concept of maneuvers, divorced from their method of recharge, is good by itself.

I personally have no problem with movespam. Casters do it all the time, until their slots run out. Even take a look at reserve feats (terrible) and what it forces 3e casters to do in order to prevent running out of slots.

My dilemma is... rather than devise a recharge method for martial artists, because after all you can perform Hadouken and Pound Cake.. uh I mean "Tatsumaki Senpuu Kyaku"... as much as he wants.
No fatigue points.
No dramatic pose.
Every now and then a new player might mess up the down-downforward-forward-punch combo and deliver a normal punch, but that's another thing entirely.

I didn't want to lead on to a 4e debate, but I suppose it is related to ToB at heart.
4e's failure with encounter and daily powers is that every single extended fight leads to movespam. There is no recovery method for those powers, so PCs are forced to use at-wills after about round 3 in early levels.
That's stupid. That's wasteful.
And to assume that's what players want is absurd, yet a fandom of thousands ate it up book after book without rectification.

Anyway.
I thought, what if the ToB maneuvers had little inserts within each power that activate under certain conditions, such as "when the opponent is at less than half HP" and the others I mentioned in my first post.
Each power would then become dynamic, changing with the flow of battle without relying on a tempo of recharge or limited slots to determine when you can do cool stuff.
You could even throw in multiple triggers for each power, giving as many as 3 (4 seems too many) options for outcome when a power would otherwise be simply movespam.
I don't know if 4e has attempted anything like this with their Bloodied condition, which seems ripe for use with their ever-multiplying splat collection, since I've only played 4e for an hour or two and as a level 1 Fighter that didn't do much interesting after my encounter powers ran out.

The ultimate goal would be to not force players to vary their martial arts but reward them for it.

[JonSetanta]

I don't know if TVTropes is shunned on this board, but this is my objective and consider it an abbreviated summary;

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... artialArts
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SwordBeam
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KiAttacks
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagicKnight
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... cingPowers

And a commonly occuring standard for weeaboo warriors, my personal favorite;

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FlashStep

[HalcyonUmbra]

To expand upon what I quoted from Frank earlier, there are two things you can modify when designing a resource system:

• How soon before an attack comes online
• How soon before you can use an attack again

or, in other words

• Where do you get your resources
• How do you spend your resources

I thought, what if the ToB maneuvers had little inserts within each power that activate under certain conditions, such as "when the opponent is at less than half HP" and the others I mentioned in my first post.
Each power would then become dynamic, changing with the flow of battle without relying on a tempo of recharge or limited slots to determine when you can do cool stuff.
You could even throw in multiple triggers for each power, giving as many as 3 (4 seems too many) options for outcome when a power would otherwise be simply movespam.
I don't know if 4e has attempted anything like this with their Bloodied condition, which seems ripe for use with their ever-multiplying splat collection, since I've only played 4e for an hour or two and as a level 1 Fighter that didn't do much interesting after my encounter powers ran out.

So it seems like what you've got is Rage Bar based resource generation, and Unlimited based resource spending.

The ultimate goal would be to not force players to vary their martial arts but reward them for it.

I think the general consensus on these boards is that rewarding a player for any given option (and not rewarding them for others) is, for all intents and purposes, the same as forcing the player to choose that option.

[Username17]

To expand upon what I quoted from Frank earlier, there are two things you can modify when designing a resource system:

• How soon before an attack comes online
• How soon before you can use an attack again

I would add one more:

• What you give up to use that attack.

Maybe it's just the action, maybe it's a penalty on subsequent actions (drain), maybe it's the simultaneous loss of access to other attacks in the group (slots). But in any case, it's a third lever you can fiddle with for your resource management. In some, each attack is on its own cooldown timer, in others every attack draws from the same mana pool.

-Username17

[Lago PARANOIA]

I'm getting a general sense from most of you that the concept of maneuvers, divorced from their method of recharge, is good by itself.

I think that the idea of a 'maneuver' and a 'non-maneuver' is an artificial distinction when we're talking about combat-specific tactical option. As 4E D&D has shown us, even the most mundane of actions can be carved up and made to fit in the maneuver system. Yes, that applies to Second Winds and Vanilla attacks.

What we liked about Maneuvers is that it provides a framework for abilities that allow us to uplift non-caster classes from the shackles of mundane impotency. 4E D&D really fell down on the job by not taking it to its full conclusion, but as Exalted (of all places) have shown us, organizing combat options in that way makes it a lot easier to give non-casters real and helpful powers.

And to assume that's what players want is absurd, yet a fandom of thousands ate it up book after book without rectification.

Now now, the 4E D&D maneuver system is subtly different from the ToB one for Warblades and Swordsages. Like people said earlier in the thread, the fact that you could recharge powers at all created a wide-sweeping change in how the systems were played.

[*] In 4E D&D, you have access to a discrete number of non-overlapping defensive and offensive maneuvers. The line between defensive (utility) and offensive (encounter/daily attack) powers gets blurred very often, but for the most part using a defensive power doesn't diminish your use of offensive powers. In ToB there's no such partition. This creates the next difference.

[*] In 4E D&D, it's really damn hard -- impossible for more players -- to reliably recharge powers. Because combat as envisioned lasted for more rounds than people could use their powers there's absolutely no reason why you wouldn't just use up all of your powers mindlessly. This created 'Five Moves of Doom', when people used their powers in an optimal order and were punished for deviating from it.

[*] ToB on the other hand allowed you to recharge powers at the cost of not allowing you to use any other powers for the round. This is much more tactical than the previous setup, because you were asked whether or not you wanted to press in for a quick offense and not have access to defensive powers or whether you wanted to play conservatively and not get caught with your pants down.


I can't let any comparison of the ToB system to the 4E D&D system stand. If I was designing a TTRPG the ToB system actually works pretty okay; the maneuvers would both need rebalancing and the strikes would need to be made less sucky, but that resource management system creates real and interesting decisions to be made. I'm not being facetious or ironic when I say that the Warblade spell charge system is probably the best spell charge system I've seen and I would not be terribly offended if 4E or 5E D&D went with that. I don't feel the same way at all about the 4E D&D one.

[HalcyonUmbra]

To expand upon what I quoted from Frank earlier, there are two things you can modify when designing a resource system:

• How soon before an attack comes online
• How soon before you can use an attack again

I would add one more:

• What you give up to use that attack.

Maybe it's just the action, maybe it's a penalty on subsequent actions (drain), maybe it's the simultaneous loss of access to other attacks in the group (slots). But in any case, it's a third lever you can fiddle with for your resource management. In some, each attack is on its own cooldown timer, in others every attack draws from the same mana pool.

-Username17

Actually, that probably just replaces the second point. I mean, what is "after you use this attack, you can't use it for four more rounds" if not a penalty?[/i]

[JonSetanta]

My desire for maneuver users is that, responding to Frank's third resource modification, there is no cost.

If there is a fatigue limit for doing physical effort, it should apply evenly to everyone, which means casting spells should exert just as much sweat and grimacing as making air slash marks and shooting chi balls.

So, essentially, no cost other than action and slot limitation on number of powers.
Maneuver users would effectively pay the price for lack of range and/or utility, which should be what magic covers as by the old stereotype of a wizardly back-line blaster/debuffer. They should both deal about the same amount of damage as spellcasters of the same level, determined by higher amounts for single target and lower amounts for area effects.

[Lokathor]

To expand upon what I quoted from Frank earlier, there are two things you can modify when designing a resource system:

• How soon before an attack comes online
• How soon before you can use an attack again

I would add one more:

• What you give up to use that attack.

Maybe it's just the action, maybe it's a penalty on subsequent actions (drain), maybe it's the simultaneous loss of access to other attacks in the group (slots). But in any case, it's a third lever you can fiddle with for your resource management. In some, each attack is on its own cooldown timer, in others every attack draws from the same mana pool.

-Username17

Actually, that probably just replaces the second point. I mean, what is "after you use this attack, you can't use it for four more rounds" if not a penalty?[/i]

It's a different kind of penalty from "after you use this attack, you're at -2 AC for three rounds". Since you could potentially have the attack back right away and still take -2 to AC for three rounds, it pretty much counts as a third dial.