Let's have a thread about Pathfinder Online: The MMORGP

[Ikeren]

I was bored the other night on a ferry, so I read over their development blog.

1) We're Eve Online, except fantasy, in every way possible that we possibly can be.
2) We say the words Sandbox a lot, because hopefully we can create less content and just make people fight a lot.
3) We're going to try to keep people on the same RNG, so low level characters can interact with high level characters in some sort of way.
4) All the numbers are bigger (in one example, their HP range is 400-2000, and in another, their attack and saves range from 50-100).
5) Instead of taking levels in classes, classes take levels in YOU! You train random skills, and if you happen to get the skills that correspond with a class, you get a class "badge" (name changes later). So training:
Hit points, heavy armor, base attack, power attack, and cleave skills (just examples) gets you the badge "fighter 1", but training Hit points, medium armor, base attack, power attack, and rage powers gets you the badge "Barbarian 1". If you single class (IE, take just class skills all the way to maxed class skills) you get a special capstone. If you multiclass on the way, even if you max out the same skills, you never get the capstone. 99% odds that the capstones aren't worth enough to prevent multiclassing from being useful, but it's still years away.

In one blog post, they admit that the biggest danger isn't commercial success, but development failure, where they never actually get around to publishing a game. Which makes me feel bad for the 9000ish people that gave their 2 separate kickstarters money. They also have an "open beta" date of 2014, which I'll give...99% odds won't occur.

[Surgo]

In one blog post, they admit that the biggest danger isn't commercial success, but development failure, where they never actually get around to publishing a game.

Pathfinder suddenly became the most realistic game company ever.

[Lago PARANOIA]

3) We're going to try to keep people on the same RNG, so low level characters can interact with high level characters in some sort of way.

4) All the numbers are bigger (in one example, their HP range is 400-2000, and in another, their attack and saves range from 50-100).

These people are incompetent schmucks. I don't even have to look at the rest of the proposal; I already know that there is no fucking way that they can pull this off with a system that even leans in the direction of d20.

If I was a Pathfinder fan who was looking forward to the MMORPG, I would would foaming at the mouth in incoherent rage. This is a level of oblivious, fucktarded, pants-shitting fail on par with the creators of MLP: FiM declaring that they're going to create a game with FATAL mechanics in order to please their core demographics and pull in housewifes aged 40-65.

[hyzmarca]

3) We're going to try to keep people on the same RNG, so low level characters can interact with high level characters in some sort of way.

4) All the numbers are bigger (in one example, their HP range is 400-2000, and in another, their attack and saves range from 50-100).

These people are incompetent schmucks. I don't even have to look at the rest of the proposal; I already know that there is no fucking way that they can pull this off with a system that even leans in the direction of d20.

The great thing about computer games is that all the actual math operations and formulas are invisible to the player, so you can totally have stats that look huge but really aren't. Lets say, for example, that you multiply every number by 10. Thus, you roll 1d20*10 and get results ranging from 10-200. Your 2d6*10 hit dice give you a HP range between 20-120. 3d6*10 gives stats between 30 and 180. Longsword does 1d8*10 + Strength Damage.

When you do it that way the numbers get huge. If you do it at the tabletop it's horrible, because it adds a completely pointless multiplication step and everyone can see what you're really doing. But if you do it in a video game it's suitably impressive and it doesn't add any real overhead.

[zugschef]

but a range from 1 to 20 isn't the same as a range from 10 to 200. one has 20 possible results the other has 181.

[hyzmarca]

but a range from 1 to 20 isn't the same as a range from 10 to 200. one has 20 possible results the other has 181.

In my example, 10 to 200 has 20 possible results, because it is (1-20)*10. You can't get any result that isn't a multiple of 10.

[zugschef]

but a range from 1 to 20 isn't the same as a range from 10 to 200. one has 20 possible results the other has 181.

In my example, 10 to 200 has 20 possible results, because it is (1-20)*10. You can't get any result that isn't a multiple of 10.

d'uh! the fool i am.^^

[Lago PARANOIA]

The granularity of large numbers aren't the point, hyzmarca. Even acknowledging your retarded obfuscating Devil's Advocacy (seriously, why do it like that? It's more confusing and feels less like D&D for no gameplay reason) there's still a blatant contradiction in the whole premise that's not resolved by that fake-ass 'fix'.

Seriously, there's only two general outcomes that can result from having both of those things at the same time:

1.) Players can't in fact adventure at the same time because of the difference in numbers. Given that this is an MMORPG and those games wank the fuck out of incremental advancement, this seems likely. This means that premise three is a bald-faced fucking lie. But it definitely beats:

2.) The numbers don't actually mean much of anything. Either the lower-level people are autoscaled to the higher-level people (negating the point of advancement), the higher-level people get scaled down to the lower-level people (negating the point of mixed level parties), or the numbers are bullshit that don't really mean much of anything even within the paradigm of grinding (negating the point of the MMORPG).

It's a fucking advancement-based RPG. Either number advancement means something or it doesn't and thus levels (the main way you do number advancement in a levelled RPG) don't mean anything. And if levels do in fact mean something then high level characters can't adventure with low level characters in a fair or satisfying way.

[fectin]

3) We're going to try to keep people on the same RNG, so low level characters can interact with high level characters in some sort of way.

4) All the numbers are bigger (in one example, their HP range is 400-2000, and in another, their attack and saves range from 50-100).

These people are incompetent schmucks. I don't even have to look at the rest of the proposal; I already know that there is no fucking way that they can pull this off with a system that even leans in the direction of d20.

Dude: based on EVE Online. They can interact "in some sort of way" just fine. (crushing like bugs)

[OgreBattle]

They can make a potentially cool Eve-esque game if constructing golems and necromantic armies and flying castles is the equivalent of Eve battleships and carriers and stuff.

Just as every dreadnought in EVE is known and named, Pathfinder could do that.

[Rawbeard]

It's not a D&D/d20 MMO so saying they fail from that angle makes no sense. My guess would be licensing issues as a reason to go in the asstarded EVE direction, but whatever.

Even if this shit gets done sometimes, their selling point will not be skillbased advancement, it's their campaing setting. I'm not sure enough people will care for that, since the whole thing will not be available at launch (because of 'WoW didn't have everything at lauch, so why should we?' argument. Yeah, right. Good luck with that) so it will be boring ass woods and elves and dwarfs. No crashed spaceships? I'm out. I don't want to chop trees, I want to ride a Giant Murder Scorpion Robot shooting lazers while summoning demons to do my bidding. You don't have that? Go screw yourself.

Personally I'm more interested in Neverwinter, because it uses so much of 4e nomenclature but obviosly little of the actual game engine, that I want to see how daily powers recharge (yes, they have at-will, encounter and daily powers. In an action RPG. I'm not making that up). And that's all there is to that game. How stupid were they basically.

You can't really have a d20 ruleset in an MMO. Pacing alone is way off. Also rewards need to get more and more 'awesome' so you eviscerate the RNG by level 10 (I'm looking at you DDO. At least they got the cheesy narration down, so I' very forgiving of that game).

[Slade]

. No crashed spaceships? I'm out. I don't want to chop trees, I want to ride a Giant Murder Scorpion Robot shooting lazers while summoning demons to do my bidding. You don't have that? Go screw yourself.

Wait, but the Giant Scopion robots would be at the null magic continent so you'd not be able to summon demons.
Aren't the robots there? I forget the Gorlarion lore, I though the guns and robots were at same place (could be wrong).

[Avoraciopoctules]

Pathfinder does have giant scorpion robots with chainguns, jump jets, and plasma beam cannons.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monste ... nnhiliator

But they aren't in a "null-magic continent". Mainly, they come out of a mountain-sized spaceship that crashed in Numeria a really long time ago and still randomly spawns enough stuff that some of it wanders out of the megadungeon and into the surrounding land.

And lots of the death robots and bioweapons get pretty mad about humans coming into their home to lick hallucinogenic ichor off of the walls.

[Avoraciopoctules]

The guns come mainly from Alkenstar, a micronation in the no-man's land between 2 magocracies that had a huge war. It's more "wild surges and horrible mutations" than "no magic at all" if I remember right, but magic is still unreliable enough that Alkenstar has made rapid technological progress, aided by an alliance with some dwarves.

[K]

Big numbers are so that you can have very slightly better equipment have a noticeable effect on your attacks and defense without that effect being meaningful.

It's your basic equipment treadmill that's in every fantasy MMO in existence.

[OgreBattle]

It's not a D&D/d20 MMO so saying they fail from that angle makes no sense. My guess would be licensing issues as a reason to go in the asstarded EVE direction, but whatever.

Even if this shit gets done sometimes, their selling point will not be skillbased advancement, it's their campaing setting. I'm not sure enough people will care for that, since the whole thing will not be available at launch (because of 'WoW didn't have everything at lauch, so why should we?' argument. Yeah, right. Good luck with that) so it will be boring ass woods and elves and dwarfs. No crashed spaceships? I'm out. I don't want to chop trees, I want to ride a Giant Murder Scorpion Robot shooting lazers while summoning demons to do my bidding. You don't have that? Go screw yourself.

Personally I'm more interested in Neverwinter, because it uses so much of 4e nomenclature but obviosly little of the actual game engine, that I want to see how daily powers recharge (yes, they have at-will, encounter and daily powers. In an action RPG. I'm not making that up). And that's all there is to that game. How stupid were they basically.

You can't really have a d20 ruleset in an MMO. Pacing alone is way off. Also rewards need to get more and more 'awesome' so you eviscerate the RNG by level 10 (I'm looking at you DDO. At least they got the cheesy narration down, so I' very forgiving of that game).

If I could take Total Annhilation/Supreme Commander and slow it down by 1,000 I would have that game.

[sake]

Wait... PF Online won't be class based? What? I mean, I'm actually always happy for another point based game, but it's fucking PF/D&D, classes are a rather important thing to have in this case. How can they stumble that badly this early on?

[tussock]

If they used Pathfinder classes, people might notice how much the Fighter sucked. This way everyone can play a Wizard in effect while some still call themselves a Fighter.

Anyhoo, making programmers stick to your RPG dice engine is how you lose the right to put your name on it and cry that the latest multi-million selling sequel is not called "Steve Jackson Games presents Fallout New Vegas powered by GURPS".

[ishy]

PFO currently just reminds me of DDN. A lot of talk that doesn't make much sense, no release date in sight. And nothing to get interested about.

It's not a D&D/d20 MMO so saying they fail from that angle makes no sense. My guess would be licensing issues as a reason to go in the asstarded EVE direction, but whatever.

Isn't Dancy (or whatever his name is) the guy who said TTRPGs were dead ~4-5 years ago and then went on to work on Eve-Online? It just looks like he was kicked out of Eve and trying to show them they shouldn't have fired him.

The great thing about computer games is that all the actual math operations and formulas are invisible to the player, so you can totally have stats that look huge but really aren't.

Acutally players figure out most formulas pretty damn fast. You can't keep most formulas hidden from players.

[hogarth]

Pathfinder suddenly became the most realistic game company ever.

Nitpick: "Pathfinder" isn't a company. There's a tabletop RPG company called Paizo and a MMORPG company named Goblinworks. Lisa Stevens has money invested in both of them, but Ryan Dancey is the head of Goblinworks.

Isn't Dancy (or whatever his name is) the guy who said TTRPGs were dead ~4-5 years ago and then went on to work on Eve-Online? It just looks like he was kicked out of Eve and trying to show them they shouldn't have fired him.

Dancey has always had a hard-on for "content should be Free" ideas like the OGL and EVE, from what I've heard of him.

[Antariuk]

Wait... PF Online won't be class based? What? I mean, I'm actually always happy for another point based game, but it's fucking PF/D&D, classes are a rather important thing to have in this case. How can they stumble that badly this early on?

Lisa Stevens said something about that decision, maybe on the Pathfinder Online Blog or somewhere. IIRC, its about the OGL forbidding them to use the d20 framework in a computer game. I didn't look into it, but I suppose it makes sense - why else would they abandon something so recognizeable?

Or maybe its just Ryan Dancey talking everone into this whole "like EVE" thing, because apparently he didn't fuck up enough at CCP with his vanity item shit to realize how very much he is not the Steve Jobs of MMO marketing.

[OgreBattle]

Acutally players figure out most formulas pretty damn fast. You can't keep most formulas hidden from players.

Final Fantasy XI is the king at that. Nobody knows how exactly crafting is calculated

[Rawbeard]

What did this Dancey guy fuck up exactly?

[Username17]

What did this Dancey guy fuck up exactly?

Dancey worked for Alderac. In that capacity, he did Rolling Thunder. Some people say that was the worst thing ever, but I honestly wasn't playing during that period, so I wouldn't know. He actually had a number of ideas that were pretty decent while I was paying attention to that franchise.

Dancey worked for WotC. He made the OGL and the d20 license. That was the greatest success in RPG history, which Dancey has mostly been coasting on ever since.

Dancey worked for GAMA, where he resigned after he was implicated in a Hacking Scandal. In any sane world, this would be the biggest black mark of his career and also pretty much end his career in the industry. However, it almost never comes up when people talk about him.

Dancey subsequently went to work for CCP as their CMO and under his watch, CCP bought White Wolf's bleeding carcass after they went bankrupt. Ryan Dancey admitted publicly that White Wolf wasn't a real company and had no real products and was just being kept alive as a publishing imprint so that CCP could own their IP and maybe make a computer game out of it that would actually make money. This deeply offended a bunch of people at the big purple, even though it was obviously true. He was eventually fired by CCP, but I don't think anyone actually knows why or how.

Now Dancey is the CEO of Goblinworks, which is the company nominally making Paizo's vaporware MMO.

He has done other stuff, like running an ISP in the Seattle area and being a buyer for MacZone. But that stuff doesn't matter for this discussion, because it's not particularly relevant to the game industry.

-Username17

[Antariuk]

What did this Dancey guy fuck up exactly?

Well...

In 2011 EVE Online finally got the Incarna expansion that allowed you to actually walk around in a 3D avatar. Movement was (and still is) limited to your personal quarters only, but its a first step. They also introduced a vanity item system to come along with creating the outlook of your avatar, complete with a meta-level of in-game currency (Aurum) that is for these items only and doesn't work for the normal market.

This thing failed, and it failed hard. The exhange rates between your real money or normal in-game currency (ISK) to Aurum is ridiculously unattractive and the benefits are... like nonexistant. You can have a couple of lame new clothes and accessoires for your avatar, but since you can't leave your quarters, they are only visible via your portrait. And it has been left in this half-asses state ever since.

AFAIK there are little to no hard facts known about the who and how, but it is said that Dancey was involved in developement and/or marketing of this vanity item system.

The real burner however was a leaked document that discussed the possibilities of "gold ammo", like real in-game benefits for money. As EVE is a game where you progress through spending time and learning skills, this was a serious offender to many older players, and there was massive outrage and bad press. It was in fact so bad that the senior producer at CCP had a temper tantrum like you wouldn't believe it, and they called an emergency meeting with the ISC, a group of community representatives who act as a bridge between CCP and the player base. It was pretty hilarious.

See this for reference:
http://community.eveonline.com/devblog. ... og&bid=934

CCP backpedaled hard in this, claiming it was only ever meant to throw some ideas around and discuss things in theory, but it smelled fishy. To my knowledge, they kinda abandoned the while Incarna and vanity item project after that and went on fixing and changing other aspects of the game.

Shortly after that, Ryan Dancey was not with CCP anymore.

EDIT: Frank ninja-ed me.