(3.x) Active Parrying Mechanic (nebulous work-in-progress)

[wotmaniac]

*stop me if this has been done before*
**I'm just spitballing at this point -- just wanted to get this out before I forgot about it**

Preface:
Parrying, as it stands, is merely an abstraction that is represented by a nominal boost in AC (fighting defensively/total defense, combat expertise, 'defending' weapon quality, etc.). This is dissatisfying for me.

Proposed Mechanic (inception/speculation stage):
While you are in a defensive stance (fighting defensively, total defense, combat expertise, etc.), you may attempt to parry 1 melee attack that targets you per round. To parry, you make an opposed attack roll vs. the attacker; if your parry roll is greater than your opponent's attack roll, you have successfully parried the attack.
On a failed parry, the incoming attack is resolved as normal, but you do not receive the AC bonus from your defensive stance for that attack.
You can only parry with a manufactured weapon.
You must decide whether or not to parry before the result of the attack roll is determined.
Weapons with the 'parrying' quality also give you a +1 on parry rolls.
You cannot parry while flat-footed.
- Bonuses/Penalties:
-- If you are smaller than your opponent, you receive a -4 penalty to your parry roll for each size category smaller you are than the attacker. (tentative)
-- Light weapons receive a -4 penalty on parry rolls. (tentative)
-- 2-handed wpns receive a +4 bonus on parry rolls. (tentative)
-- Shields offer a parry bonus equal to the shield's bonus. Using your shield to parry causes you to lose its AC bonus until your next action. All other rules for using shields as weapons apply.


New Feats:

Improved Parry
prereqs: Combat Expertise, BAB +1, DEX 13+
benefit: While in your defensive stance (described above), you receive a bonus on parry rolls equal to the AC bonus you receive from fighting defensively/total defense, combat expertise, 'defending' wpns, 2-wpn defense, etc. **if you are receiving an AC bonus from multiple 'defending' wpns, you only receive a parry bonus from the specific wpn with which you are parrying.
special:
- Combat Expertise: Parry rolls do not receive the normal attack penalty incurred from utilizing Combat Expertise.
- Combat Reflexes: if you have the Combat Reflexes feat, you may also make a # of additional Parry rolls equal to your DEX mod; however, each additional parry that round takes a cumulative -5 penalty. You can still only make 1 parry roll per incoming attack.
- Dodge: if you have the Dodge feat, you also receive +1 bonus on parry rolls vs. the target of your Dodge feat. Improvements to your Dodge feat (such as from the Swashbuckler's Dodge class feature, etc.) also improve parry rolls. Other sources of dodge bonuses to your AC have no effect (except as noted above).
- 2-wpn Fighting: If you have the 2-wpn Fighting feat, are wielding 2 weapons (or a double-wpn), and both weapons have the 'defending' quality, parry bonuses stack (e.g., if you are receiving a +2 AC from one wpn and a +3 AC from another, you would receive a +5 to parry rolls).
- 2-wpn Defense: If you have the 2-wpn Defense feat, this bonus also applies to your parry rolls.

Greater Parry
prereqs: Improved Parry, Combat Expertise, BAB +6
benefit: Upon making a successful parry, you may immediately make a single melee attack against that opponent. Penalties for making multiple parry attempts apply to this attack (but this attack does not cause the accumulation of further penalties). In lieu of making this attack, you may instead take a free 5ft-step.

Battle Buddy
prereqs: Improved Parry, Combat Expertise, BAB +6
benefit: As an Immediate Action, you may parry an attack that targets an adjacent creature. This counts against your total available parries for the round.

Improved Battle Buddy
prereqs: Improved Parry, Battle Buddy, Combat Expertise, BAB +9
benefit: You may use your parry to target an incoming attack that targets any creature that is within your threatened area. Using parry in this way no longer consumes an Immediate Action.


So, what do y'all think?

[Kaelik]

Ignoring for the moment the questionable (IE negligible) value of such a mechanic in the first place:

1) You didn't define the interaction of parries with iterative attacks. Do you intend for all iteratives to be parried laughably by someone with a +5 or more bonus over them?

2) All your bonuses/penalties need to go away. It is not harder to parry with light or one handed weapons. People parry all the time with lighter weapons that divert instead of halting the force.

Any minor disadvantage caused by not being a huge brick is made back by being fast enough to get in the right position. Why on earth would people with Lucerene Hammers be better at parrying than people who fight with sword and dirk, who's fighting style traditionally relies on parries?

EDIT: You should probably define the effects on the assorted defensive stances on parrying.

As it stands now, you are saying "Whenever you take a penalty to your attack roll in exchange for a bonus to AC, you can lose the bonus to AC in order to make attack rolls."

This means Combat Expertise for -1 is much better at parrying than Combat Expertise for -10, or Total Defense.

[wotmaniac]

Ignoring for the moment the questionable (IE negligible) value of such a mechanic in the first place:

I'm glad to see that you always maintain form.

1) You didn't define the interaction of parries with iterative attacks. Do you intend for all iteratives to be parried laughably by someone with a +5 or more bonus over them?

I thought I did do that -- hence the "cumulative -5 penalty per successive parry per round". (of course, without both Improved Parry and Combat Reflexes, it's a moot point)
Is there something else I'm missing?

2) All your bonuses/penalties need to go away. It is not harder to parry with light or one handed weapons. People parry all the time with lighter weapons that divert instead of halting the force.

Any minor disadvantage caused by not being a huge brick is made back by being fast enough to get in the right position. Why on earth would people with Lucerene Hammers be better at parrying than people who fight with sword and dirk, who's fighting style traditionally relies on parries?

The idea there was that a glaive should easily be able to cleave right through/past a dagger.
However, you may indeed have a point.

EDIT: You should probably define the effects on the assorted defensive stances on parrying.

As it stands now, you are saying "Whenever you take a penalty to your attack roll in exchange for a bonus to AC, you can lose the bonus to AC in order to make attack rolls."

This means Combat Expertise for -1 is much better at parrying than Combat Expertise for -10, or Total Defense.

Here's the deal -- it's an additional option that a character would get for free; and like all combat options, if you want it to actually be useful, you need to invest character-building resources.
- While in Total Defense, you normally can't make any attacks. This lets you do at least something while turtling. And it's free.
- As for Combat Expertise .... when you activate Combat Expertise, you take that penalty for all of your attack rolls. There's nothing in the basic parry proposal that supersedes that. And then once you take Improved Parry, Combat Expertise for -1 is much different than Combat Expertise for -10 (never mind that Combat Expertise maxes out at -5 without additional feats; but whatever).

Thanks -- 'preciate it.

[Kaelik]

1) You didn't define the interaction of parries with iterative attacks. Do you intend for all iteratives to be parried laughably by someone with a +5 or more bonus over them?

I thought I did do that -- hence the "cumulative -5 penalty per successive parry per round". (of course, without both Improved Parry and Combat Reflexes, it's a moot point)
Is there something else I'm missing?

Yes, you forgot to write rules.

The rules under Improved Parry's special category do not apply to the regular Parry action for people who don't have improved Parry.

Since absolutely no part of your actual Parry entry sets a limit on the number of Parries, that means that anyone who hasn't taken Improved Parry can Parry and infinite number of times with no attack penalty for successive Parries.

EDIT: Oh, I see, you think "you may attempt to parry 1 melee attack per round that targets you."

Is a limitation on the number of parries. You should probably rephrase that as:

"you may attempt to parry 1 melee attack per round, the attack must target you."

"you may attempt to parry 1 melee attack that targets you per round."

But when you write about rounds targeting me I ignore that sentence.

[wotmaniac]

Ah, I see your point. Thanks.
change made.

[...You Lost Me]

I like the idea of parrying because it happens a lot, but I don't like this mechanic because it involves a lot more fiddling per round.

[wotmaniac]

I like the idea of parrying because it happens a lot, but I don't like this mechanic because it involves a lot more fiddling per round.

Fair enough.
Do you see it as salvageable, though?

[OgreBattle]

I've been pondering a similar idea.

The goal is to have an offense/defense toggle for sword swinging, so improving your parry means you're using up the resource for improving your damage or accuracy. Power Attack and Expertise already represent that, so what I'm doing is a replacement for power attack/expertise (discussed in this thread: http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=52841 )


Here's my thoughts on it:

warrior dudes have "Combat Superiority"action that is expended like a swift/immediate action, they can use it to...

Like a Swift Action:
-Sure Strike: Add 1d6 to their attack roll
-Power Attack: Add (scaling monk unarmed bonus) to their damage
-Combat maneuver*: make a trip/disarm/bullrush attempt if the attack hits

Like an Immediate Action:
-Parry: Subtract 1d6 from foe's attack roll within threat range
-Grit: add 1d6 to saving throw
-Endure: subtract (scaling monk unarmed bonus) from foe's damage roll against you
-Combat maneuver*: make a trip/disarm/bullrush attempt if the target missed you

*That could be unlocked by combat maneuver feats. You could add feats like if you succesfully parry you can make an OA on the target, or they are flat footed against your next attack, stuff like that.

Different weapon categories can get bonuses for certain actions, like...

-Swords get +1 to Sure Strike and Parry
-Axes and hammers get +(scaling) to damage results
-Reach weapons get a bonus when their foe has inferior reach
-Shields add +1 to saving throw and +(scaling) to damage reduction


So yeah, this is a replacement for power attack/expertise/shock trooper. I think if you're going to add something fiddly to D&D3e, you should remove something else that is already fiddly and equivalent.

[tussock]

It reads like 2nd edition Combat & Tactics. Only fiddlier. That seemed like a good idea in 1995, until we used it, and then it wasn't.

Uh, the results of your counterattack there have already been done with less fuss in 3e too, IIRC, there's builds that only attack when missed, or hit, or both. Cheesy goodness. Might want to add the DEX 13+ to the later ones, if that's still a thing.


I have also built a system like that for 3e, and discarded it. I used reserved attacks rather than free ones with a stance, AC replacement terminology (only if better), and all-in-all it's just easier and more fun to get a flat bonus to your AC when needed and attack for reals on your own turn.

Immediate/Reactions are basically a curse to be avoided if the abstraction allows.

[wotmaniac]

It reads like 2nd edition Combat & Tactics. Only fiddlier.

Yeah, I do that a lot.
eh -- I'm washing my hands of this.

Thanks.