On Christmas Movies

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Wed Dec 25, 2013 5:55 pm

Okay, so, I'll just throw this out there: there will never be another Xmas movie as good as Christmas Vacation or A Christmas Story or especially A Charlie Brown Christmas. I think it's because when you get down to it, these stories are almost plotless - random, often meandering episodes with a set cast at a set time. And that works. Most Christmas movies these days don't get that - they insist on a moral or something recognizable as a character plot arc or some shit and a great Xmas movie doesn't need any of that shit. Granted, as in A Charlie Brown Christmas it's great to learn the true meaning of Christmas - arguably that's what makes it great and ballsy compared to umpteen million fucking soulless Hallmark channel specials - but if you look at the characters of Ralphie or Charlie Brown or Clark Griswold, they haven't changed a fucking bit from beginning to end, except maybe that they're satisfied because they got what they wanted for Christmas.

It's not a huge point, but I think it's a definitive one. Which is part of why I would also like to nominate Die Hard as one of the greatest Christmas movies of all time.

See, John McClane doesn't change from beginning or end. He starts out in need of a shave and wisecracking, and he ends in need of a shave and wisecracking; all that happens in between is he hooked back up with his wife (which is what he wanted for Christmas) and killed a bunch of bad guys. (Oh, and he made a new friend!) Otherwise, there's no real character arc here; he doesn't go from zero-to-badass, there's no training sequence or deep philosophical rumination. He just does what he does because that's what he does, and in the end he gets what he always wanted, even if it meant having to kill terrorists and walk through broken glass to do it. Also, it had some bitching holiday music.

Which is something that is the other defining attributes of the Xmas movie: how many decent holiday songs you can cram into your allotted time slot. Now, there is a difference here - A Charlie Brown Christmas essentially became a definitive Xmas soundtrack, whereas in Christmas Vacation and Die Hard they just borrowed good but non-standard Christmas songs. I don't know if you've ever really listened to the soundtrack for Christmas Vacation, but there's a lot of bluesy and Motown-influenced stuff in there - it's not your traditional white boy-band Christmas pop crap, it's not your Love Actually White People Christmas soundtrack, it takes a chance and goes for some really good Xmas music that isn't played out before the first time it appears.

Okay, Xmas movie rant almost over. Almost.

The Nightmare Before Christmas is a bastardization between Hallowe'en and Xmas, and bridging those two holidays is Danny Elfman, who is a good and jolly and hardworking soul who pumps out some great songs, but they're not classic Xmas songs. But it's not a classic Xmas movie. Great movie, don't get me wrong, but it's not the kind of thing where you can flip it to literally any random point in the film and pick up the gist and go from there. There's actual set-up, if not much back-story, and the whole thing lacks the sort of episodic quality that characterizes the great Xmas movies.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Wed Dec 25, 2013 6:24 pm

Ancient History wrote:Which is part of why I would also like to nominate Die Hard as one of the greatest Christmas movies of all time.

I never understood this statement. I love the original Die Hard and all, but the fact that it took place on Christmas has fuck-all to do with the progression of the plot other than it provided a convenient excuse for a closed circle party. I can't really consider it a Christmas movie, unlike Christmas Vacation and A Christmas Story.

Great movie, don't get me wrong, but it's not the kind of thing where you can flip it to literally any random point in the film and pick up the gist and go from there.

I never understood the appeal of this movie either. Or rather, I do, I'm just wondering what's the appeal of this movie to anyone who thinks that the Michael Bay Transformers movies are too shallow.

It's a fucking mess on so many levels. The songs, while having a good melody, are not only time filler but they have terrible lyrics. In a musical or a music-heavy movie, the lyrics are by far the most important part of a song. Except for (with some interpretation) the one where Skellington gets shot down in the cemetary, they don't advance the plot or give us any meaningful insight into the characters or give any real backstory.

The plot is also weak. Other than cool visuals, the theme of Christmas has nothing to do with the movie. Like, seriously, think of the major tropes we associate with Christmas: indictment (or worship) of materialism, family togetherness, gameliness in the face of holiday stress, having a cultural symbol that unites differing creeds, reaching out to people who are less fortunate, etc. NbC didn't have anything to do with any of that except for some last-minute pap at the end of the movie.

The characters are also very weak. Sally's arc had almost nothing to do with the rest of the movie except for providing a token romance and damsel in distress. Santa Claus was completely wasted as a character. He had no meaningful conversations with anyone nor did anything to affect the progression of the plot except for providing some emotional closure. Jack is the closest we get to being a character. As a bumbling idiot protagonist who learns a Very Important Lesson in the end, he's all right. His change of heart after the climax of the movie is rather contrived, however.

But by far the worst character in the movie was Oogie Boogie. The villain had no effect on the outcome of the story except for the ending; his only purpose was to serve as an Act 3 obstacle. You could cut out 10 minutes from the movie by removing all of the scenes that Oogie Boogie was in and doing a hasty edit where Lock, Shock, and Barrel stuffed Santa into a tree stuff. That is fucking pathetic.

That movie entirely coasts on its visuals. I find it supremely ironic and hypocritical that many of the people who uphold McC as a seminal Christmas movie are the same ones that, say, deride Avatar as too shallow and special-effect focused.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Wed Dec 25, 2013 7:24 pm

I always felt that Oogie Boogie could have been worked more. If he'd been established as the Old School of Halloween--when he let the REALLY bad shit out--and Jack won popularity and control and made Halloween fun, it'd give him a more coherent motivation.

It'd work, I think, if Boogie were out to reclaim his seat and bring back the Bad Old Days and let the monsters do a lot more than scare you a bit.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Wed Dec 25, 2013 7:32 pm

Well, that would require a complete rewriting the plot. And even then it might be too busy: Old School v. New School Halloween is enough to fuel a movie and a spin-off series of its own. New School Halloween + Christmas v. Old School Halloween sounds fucking awesome but I don't know if it's really possible to pull off in 70-120 minutes (the upper limit to what I consider a family movie, unless they want to just ditch the pretext) without a damn good writer.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Wed Dec 25, 2013 7:44 pm

There are a great many twenty/thirty somethings out there for whom Nightmare Before Christmas is a definitive Christmas movie because, well, they are/were goths and the aesthetics spoke to them, for the first fucking time in a Christmas movie.

For the first time, there was a Christmas movie than not only had character designs that appealed to them, but also didn't blast them with "the meaning of Christmas is family!" or "Jesus!" or "Peace on Earth and good will towards men!" just "look, we've all got our thing. If you try to take someone elses, you're going to have a bad time. But fuck, maybe some good can come out of it." That's seriously the entirety of it. It has no more meaning, and the protagonist gets what he wants. He doesn't change, except for being happier, because now he's boning an attractive female. It's been a bit since I watched it, but I don't think he ever "learned the meaning of Christmas." The entirety of Halloween town probably now just give each other gifts and celebrate with random, survivable-if-you're-an-Addams violence a few months after Halloween. Like they got another day off.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Wed Dec 25, 2013 7:58 pm

I am just watching Patrick Steward as Scrooge . . i think i may have just had a small nerdgasm here . .
as for new christmas movies:
i nominate Hogfather.

Shrapnel · Post by **Shrapnel** » Wed Dec 25, 2013 8:31 pm

I nominate any movie or show released around this time of year that isn't about Giftmas in any manner whatsoever.

In fact, I'd like there to be a movie about how great the winter solstice is.

JonSetanta · Post by **JonSetanta** » Wed Dec 25, 2013 10:01 pm

Edward Scissorhands

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Wed Dec 25, 2013 10:42 pm

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Well, that would require a complete rewriting the plot. And even then it might be too busy: Old School v. New School Halloween is enough to fuel a movie and a spin-off series of its own. New School Halloween + Christmas v. Old School Halloween sounds fucking awesome but I don't know if it's really possible to pull off in 70-120 minutes (the upper limit to what I consider a family movie, unless they want to just ditch the pretext) without a damn good writer.

I really think you could do it with a few substitute scenes.

THE MAXUS BEFORE CHRISTMAS:

1) Jack talks to Oogie about his ennui as the Pumpkin King at his weekly card game with Oogie. This brings up Oogie's previous rank and how Jack got control of Halloween by making it fun. Oogie claims to be glad to give up the seat and stick with his games. We know he's lying.

2) Oogie suggests going out in the woods for a bit to get an idea. Jack finds the gate trees, the 'what's this' number happens. he comes back, tells Oogie about it, Oogie tells him to pitch the idea of swapping holidays to Santa.

3) Jack does the planning, Oogie goes behind his back and gets Lock, Shock, and Barrel to do the kidnapping of Santa before he gets there so Christmas is left unruled--and Jack, being a decent sort and having wanted to do this anyway, volunteers to manage Christmas this year and says Halloween can help out to get everything ready in the three months. Oogie enlists old underlings and such to tamper with the presents to ready the Christmas Horror.

4) Jack finds out the betrayal and the Christmas Horror, resolves to save Santa and Sally and let him fix things.

Seriously, graft a few scenes in, remove a couple others, and you've got it more or less intact, and a plot that makes a modicum more sense and has Jack being more than a complete bumbling moron.

radthemad4 · Post by **radthemad4** » Thu Dec 26, 2013 1:20 am

Stahlseele wrote:i nominate Hogfather.

Seconded a thousand times. Hogfather was amazing. It touches on and discusses many aspects of Christmas and overall, gives a feel good vibe. I've shown it to people completely unfamiliar with Discworld and they enjoyed it too.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Thu Dec 26, 2013 2:05 am

Lago PARANOIA wrote:
Ancient History wrote:Which is part of why I would also like to nominate Die Hard as one of the greatest Christmas movies of all time.
I never understood this statement. I love the original Die Hard and all, but the fact that it took place on Christmas has fuck-all to do with the progression of the plot other than it provided a convenient excuse for a closed circle party. I can't really consider it a Christmas movie, unlike Christmas Vacation and A Christmas Story.

"It happened on Christmas" is the justification. Generally you list it as your favourite Christmas movie to troll people who like Christmas Carol or whatever. The fact that it's an awesome movie to watch any time of year helps.

(For what it's worth, I like Love Actually but I see it as the epitome of cinema-happy-ending where everyone to some extent gets what they want and it all works out and this is in no way relevant to the real world. Fans of romantic comedies actually are in danger of developing unrealistic expectations and being unhappy forever.)

Does America have a specific Christmas show that is on every year and you damn well watch it? In England they have The Great Escape, in Germany it's Dinner for One, in Sweden it is Donald Duck. I don't think Australia has one.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Thu Dec 26, 2013 3:09 am

For quite awhile (like from the 70s to 90s), it was 'It's a Wonderful Life' but I'm not so sure nowadays. If I absolutely had to pick one, though, it'd be the animated 'How the Grinch Stole Christmas' short. It's a great pick, though, so totally understandable.

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Thu Dec 26, 2013 4:29 am

Lago PARANOIA wrote:
I never understood the appeal of this movie either. Or rather, I do, I'm just wondering what's the appeal of this movie to anyone who thinks that the Michael Bay Transformers movies are too shallow.

It's a matter of degree. Nightmare has a unique, playful aesthetic and while it has to pad like hell to get there, it still clocks in at under 80 minutes, which is enough for me to give it a pass if we're playing a round of Justify Your Existence. In general, I like film and animation enough that I'm willing to put up with some rough edges now and again if it means that I get to see a wider variety of visuals. I enjoyed Coraline for the same reasons, even if the plot is weak sauce and the ending undeniably sucks.

Meanwhile, the Transformer films meet several definitions of shallow--the run times are crazy bloated and Michael Bay's sense of humor is broad at best and obnoxiously fratty at worst. With Nightmare, I at least kinda felt like it'd be a while before I saw something like that attempted on such a scale again. With Transformers, I was annoyed that so much time was being spent on jet takeoffs, peeing dogs and malevolent mountain dew machines.

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Thu Dec 26, 2013 5:20 am

Rare Exports

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Thu Dec 26, 2013 5:36 am

too much crap these days trying to be replacements for 90210 jsut slapped with a holiday onto it.

like the rest of the film industry they just take ideas and reuse them cause they have to have something NEW, but there are no good stories left to write because it has already be written. take Scrooged that tried to update dickens, it was for humor, and noody really cared about Murray's character at all. he was just a modern day asshole, same as Groundhog Day. bad enough they take and try to poorly remake A Christmas Carol in pathetic ways (Polar Express), but then using the stories outside of the holiday is even worse.

bad too how things like Cat in the HAt or Grinch live action are jsut money grabs with modern stupid added. you know the stories were written to teach people NOT to be stupid or materialistic, but then the movies purposefully are extra stupid and ONLY materialistic for the studios.

at least when Miracle on 34th St remade dickens it added a new twist making it more about Santa and beliefs of everyone instead of just a boy being snobbish like Polar Express, or the reverse concept that was Rise of the Guardians.

i didnt see Charlie Brown listed nor Life and Adventures of Santa this year, but saw all the Christmas Carol version from 51 up, few of the Rankin Bass claymation version (thankfully none of the animated remake nonsense), both Seuss versions.

there were so many stupid movies on like Tim Allen's Kranks and Clause movies, and other crap it just becomes too much.

worst offenders are christmas movies for adults. really? a time for remembering the kid inside yourself and you cant be happy with a kids movie to do it and need some weird sexual innuendo charged story with that girl from J.A.G.?

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Thu Dec 26, 2013 3:53 pm

Ancient History, you forgot Gremlins. How could you forget Gremlins?

But I guess that one does have a moral in the end; that moral being: when the mystical Chinese shop owner tells you how to take care of the magic creature you just bought from him, you fucking listen.

But that's not a very applicable moral.

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Thu Dec 26, 2013 4:19 pm

hyzmarca wrote:Ancient History, you forgot Gremlins. How could you forget Gremlins?

I am only a room full of monkeys. The shame!

codeGlaze · Post by **codeGlaze** » Thu Dec 26, 2013 5:51 pm

+1 for Hogfather

That got my fiance into Discworld. xD

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Thu Dec 26, 2013 7:03 pm

I think that the moral of Christmas Vacation is "Hey, at least your family isn't as fucked up as this one."

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Fri Dec 27, 2013 2:31 am

Nah, that's the moral of this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTx-sdR6Yzk

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Fri Dec 27, 2013 5:14 am

Actually, that might be the moral of every christmas movie that has a family in it...