[3.X] Boss Fight Numbers

[virgil]

We're largely aware of the fact that having the party gang bang the lone BBEG is ultimately unsatisfying due to the action economy and general SoD atmosphere. I wouldn't be surprised if it actually did work in some instances, but I'd need to be pointed out where that happened.

While I'm not 100% certain of the ideal distribution of mook-minion-boss to get that ECL=APL+3 to 5 for the adventure boss fight, I am certain that the overwhelming majority of parties aim everything at the boss even when it's a tactically poor choice. Hell, many when faced with nothing but a mob of identical monsters, will go out of their way to designate a boss and dogpile the poor orc who chose to wear a jaunty cap that day.

The question is what can you do in 3.X to encourage the party to at least try to take out some of the minions before moving onto the boss.

[ubernoob]

One of the more satisfying boss fights I had involved a psion using schism and other action economy breaking shit that psions do while throwing down astral constructs left and right. I distinctly remember using vigor + share pain on the psicrystal in order to not get one shot.


It was a pretty high level encounter, and I remember killing at least one PC during it, but that's what he gets for not having access to freedom of movement in a 15th level game. The players did eventually win, but the encounter took over two hours of real time due to the vigor hit point pool, astral construct spam, and the displacement Telekinetic Maneuver provided to keep from being swarmed and skewered by the PCs.

[Dean]

It has been pointed out before that people generally enjoy battles with lots of opponents more than just one. That doesn't solve the problem of how to make single opponent fights maximally enjoyable. Smaug alone in his cave is one of the most iconic images in fantasy and so single boss fights are something we should attempt to make fun.

The common response to this problem is to just secretly make boss monsters multiple monsters in weird ways. Whether breaking up their arms and head into different things or just giving them special abilities that let them act multiple times in a round and shrug off conditions occasionally. I am somewhat divided on this solution. I don't like the idea of piling so many special abilities onto one thing that it effectively rewrites the game for one fight, on the other hand pig piling boss monsters is super boring and I don't really have a better solution.

[shadzar]

put BBEG out of reach of the PCs to begin with. why doesnt he have bodyguards? did the PCs find him asleep in bed unaware of their presence? why is your BBEG so squishy? why is he using poor tactics that make for a lax climactic battle?

[tussock]

The question is what can you do in 3.X to encourage the party to at least try to take out some of the minions before moving onto the boss.

Minions need to make it harder to kill the boss. At low level that mostly means standing in the way, being cannon fodder. At high level it's mostly action denial and one-way sensory deprivation. Glass-jawed power-multipliers are always good targets, like summoners.

Anything carrying silence or anti-magic or whatever. Big target.

But that's just getting the party to treat the softer monster as the boss, because they are more inconvenient at the moment. It's a game of focus fire. Which reminds me of getting the mooks to focus fire on someone: sometimes their damage output is enough to draw aggro.

[fectin]

put BBEG out of reach of the PCs to begin with. why doesnt he have bodyguards? did the PCs find him asleep in bed unaware of their presence? why is your BBEG so squishy? why is he using poor tactics that make for a lax climactic battle?

All of those questions are addressed by the original post.

[shadzar]

no it doesn't because it ALLOWS then to target the BBEG from the start. obviously these questions aren't answered of otherwise they would NOT be able to just snipe BBEG away leaving just the mooks behind.

[violence in the media]

no it doesn't because it ALLOWS then to target the BBEG from the start. obviously these questions aren't answered of otherwise they would NOT be able to just snipe BBEG away leaving just the mooks behind.

I don't know why I'm bothering....

You can't DISALLOW targeting of the BBEG at all times once the players finally encounter them. Virgil's assertion is that sometimes players will do things like charge through a horde of mooks (and accept all the AoOs in the process) just to stab the boss. They will cast Finger of Death at the boss for the off-chance he flubs the save rather than going for the near-guaranteed kill of a lieutenant. They'll fire arrows at the BBEG's stupidly high AC rather than killing a mook to clear space for a flank or something.

Part of the problem is with mooks in general. If it's a mook, it's probably not dangerous enough for you to pay attention to. If your BBEG rolls up with a horde of Ogres, chances are you don't need to pay any attention to the ogres at all. They only have a +8 melee and, if this guy has a horde of them, you probably have an AC way better than 28.

[Wiseman]

What about instead of a horde of mooks, the boss instead has two or three cohort like minions, who can still pose a threat to the PC's?

[shadzar]

You can't DISALLOW targeting of the BBEG at all times once the players finally encounter them. Virgil's assertion is that sometimes players will do things like charge through a horde of mooks (and accept all the AoOs in the process) just to stab the boss.

then again, why the fuck are they encountering BBEG asleep in his bed? is this 4th edition where EVERY room must be 8x5 of clear open space?

they are charging through statues and shelves, and tables?

IF you can just take one clean shot at the BBEG it has nothing to do with the number of mooks you have, but your setup of where BBEG is. you ALLOW the players free shots at him since he has no cover from anything.

so why is he just sleeping in bed when found rather than in some elaborate terrain area that doesnt allow him to be sniped? is this a video game where BBEG is all alone in a giant open room or what?

[...You Lost Me]

You could have horcrux bosses, who have 3 minions or artifacts hanging around that area easy to kill, and he can pop one to get to full HP with no status effects.

You could also just have a boss fight that's a climactic, easy puzzle game. Like the boss is invincible, but you can destroy the bridge he's on if you run across.

Both of those kind of stop players from doing class things, but I think single-BBEG fights are dumb anyways.

they are charging through statues and shelves, and tables?

This is so precious.

[deaddmwalking]

I absolutely agree that PCs will ignore 'non-threats'. If someone can't hurt (or even inconvenience them) they're not going to be worth the time. Minions have to provide a 'credible threat'. If they complicate the main objective signficantly, they'll be targeted.

For example, if the BBEG has a dedicated healer that keeps him at full hit points (assuming you're using hit point attrition to eliminate him) focusing fire on the dedicated healer (who is presumably easier to hit and kill than the BBEG) is more effective than continuing to shoot.

Controllers who create terrain effects and/or Summoners also create the same impulse.

Finally, having attacks that are VERY effective against Mooks encourages them to be part of the fight. For example, if you have 'Whirlwind Attack' or 'Great Cleave', there isn't much opportunity cost to attacking a minion - you can attack them and still contribute to the big fight.

What this tends to suggest is that minions should be defensively weak but offensively powerful - leaving them alive is too dangerous and killing them is easy enough that they have a reasonable shot of succeeding while absorbing the attacks of the BBEG.

This also suggests that the BBEG should be defensively tough but not SO effective on offense that the PCs can't DARE leave him alive a moment longer than possible.

Ideally, removing minions would weaken the BBEG in a measurable way. For example, if the BBEG is a rogue stabbing for crazy damage due to flanking (but not blinking or such), eliminating flankers protects you from the massive sneak attack and once they're eliminated the BBEG is much easier to deal with.

[Saxony]

To address the general question your topic title poses, you have to make sure the boss does not go down in one hit.

Deanrule brought up the issue of single opponent boss fights. Once the single opponent goes down, the fight is over, that's kinda boring. Perhaps we learn something from modern video games and use boss fights that have stages. Of course not in the ridiculous way that intentionally over the top games like Bayonetta do (the final boss has 8 health bars or so). Let's say you're fighting smaug and it's a 2 stage fight. It's flying around, you injure its wings, then it drops to the ground.

DnD doesn't really work that way. Creatures don't get multiple health bars. So house rule it. Or just let them have 500 hitpoints, and then judge that when 250 are gone, they go to stage 2. Another very easy example straight from the top of my head is: You have a 1000 hp and 3 stages. The boss starts at stage 1, goes to stage 2 when under 666 hp, goes to stage 3 if under 333 hp. Maybe it skips straight to stage 3 when under 333 hp. I'm sure you can extend this math to numbers of stages bigger than 2 or 3.

Another way to do stages would be to use your DM creativity and ability to place things in the world in a tactically sound way. Don't let the playing characters fight the boss right off the bat. Perhaps they need to break into the castle(dungeon/lair), fight their way into the throne room, and then battle the boss and its key minions. That's 3 stages right there. Use your imagination and create your own layered defenses (stages) using tactics. I just used Break into castle/fight through castle/actual boss fight. The boss could of course participate in each of these stages. Considering this is the den, I do need to spell this out for people, but the boss could (for example) sit on the castle wall and use ranged attacks while the playing characters are breaking through the gate during stage 1, engage them while they are fighting toward the throne room and then retreat when all the minions are dead in stage 2, and then obviously be in the throne room when the playing characters get there in stage 3. Again, use your imagination and world building ability to create layered defenses (stages).

You could also just have the boss get resurrected at some later date, back for revenge. Or maybe this happens in the middle of the fight, just as the boss is incapacitated. Or, for drama, let it happen 10 rounds later just as the playing characters have gotten out of combat mode and are searching around for treasure.

Invincibility works great. Just say that the boss is invincible for 1 round, or 2 rounds. Enough so they don't just go down in the first round of focused attacks. I say be upfront about this to your players (example: "You attack does no damage", "A shielding bubble surrounds the boss, protecting it, and your spell seems to have no effect"), don't just do things secretly (example: you secretly let the boss win all saves and don't let damage impact its hp). The invincibility can't be dramatic if the players don't know about it. Obviously, just making your bosses invincible works whether or not the players know about it.

To answer your more specific question that you mentioned at the end of your post, make the minions actually important enough to attack to be a similar attacking priority as the boss. In 3.X, minions are usually not important. If players in your group are routinely ignoring minions, it's because the minions have routinely proven to not be important (or the minions have, and the players are stupid). In that case, the players are making the right tactical decision, which is one of their jobs (as far as the regular orc with the fluffy hat being attacked, that's just because of DnD's class system being completely invisible (a 20th level wizard can pass for a 1st level wizard)). The issue of armies of low level characters not mattering to small groups of high level characters has been brought on this forum time and time again.

It's simply not something you can change. So embrace that. Make the minions not level 1 orcs. Make them elite lieutenants, or the boss' immediate subordinates. If they're more than 5 levels lower than the party, they are usually much less important than the boss itself. But 5 levels is a good breaking off point (any higher and they are pretty much another boss, any lower and they are safe to ignore). So make them 5 levels lower than the party.

[Wiseman]

There's this and this if your trying to do a stages boss.

[Avoraciopoctules]

I've had a fair amount of success using vampires and projected images for boss fights that go through multiple stages. Injecting a little MTP, I've also had individually dangerous people operating battle golems/mechs, lichs with contingency magic to restore them fast, and outsiders with special sight modes who attack indirectly until the party can figure out how to get at them.

[K]

Being forced to kill minions and making bosses interesting are two different problems.

Minions are relatively easy. You simply give them some ability that needs to be turned off before fighting the BBEG becomes possible. Maybe it's a guy tossing down cure-bombs on the BBEG or someone webbing the fuck out of the battlefield, but ending those dudes will turn the battle from "oh fuck, we are all going to die" to "ok, I think we have this."

Bosses are another deal, but not entirely unworkable. The key is to cheat the action economy in an interesting way.

Some ways are:
-AoEs. The dragon blows fire over everyone and sends them running for cover and cures. The giant stomps and knocks everyone down. The lich puts up a wall of fire and cuts off half the party.

-Removing people from battle. The giant punts the knight far enough that a double move is needed to get back into the fight, thus ruining the next turn for that guy. The mage gets stunned for a round by a dragon stomp. The cleric runs away because of the Fear on the lich.

-Requiring synergy. The rogue can only drop the giant with a sneak attack, but the knight keeps getting punted. The Wizard needs to dispel the Fireshield on the lich or else the knight is going to die when he hits it. The cleric needs to keep healing the wizard or else he's going to drop from the dragonfire.

There may be more options, but the point of a good BBEG is that he should be tossing the PCs around like rag-dolls if you want him to be more than a punching bag.

[name_here]

I've found that videogames that give bosses extra actions in a turn to compensate for being outnumbered can be great fun. Likewise, minions with heal spells are instant targets for anyone trying to take out their boss. You could also have highly damaging minions so that taking them out of the fight seriously cuts into the damage output.

[K]

Ideally, some sort of tiering scheme would exist so that everything at that tier gets more attacks and requires more work to disable their defenses and abilities. Then it would feel a lot less contrived when you try to make a big monster who the PCs are supposed to dogpile because PCs will be that tier some day.

Sadly, DnD is not that game. The level system's core conceit of gradual power increases by small numerical increases and unlimited bad choices doesn't allow for tactical tiers.

[ubernoob]

There may be more options, but the point of a good BBEG is that he should be tossing the PCs around like rag-dolls if you want him to be more than a punching bag.

All excellent advice, but this is a home run. In the one satisfying boss fight I've ever had in 3E, I was doing all of the things you mention (especially punting the PCs away)

[virgil]

What minions in D&D are there that can provide healing?

[RadiantPhoenix]

At higher levels, the Heal spell is available...

[Wiseman]

What minions in D&D are there that can provide healing?

there's this adept version which can throw heals at the boss. I'm now imagining a boss who has a team of these guys with the positive energy version (or negative, although it's failed at copypasta) following them around.

[name_here]

Well, any cleric can cast healing spells or use wands/scrolls. There's some positive energy monsters, but that's a bit thematically messy and also brings rules complications.

Formian workers have an ability where eight of them can cooperate to case cure serious wounds as a full-round action, and Formian queens are giant bags of hitpoints with powerful spellcasting.

[Lago PARANOIA]

I would never recommend this as a fix for an RPG being designed from scratch, but for a game like 3E D&D where you're just hot-fixing shit on the spot I would take a page from 5E D&D and do this:

[*] Give boss monsters more hit points.
[*] Give boss monsters the ability to add bonuses to saving throws (either before or after the roll) by setting fire to their hit points. After-the-fact saving throw rolls require more hit points than before-the-fact. For example, a 15th-level boss monster can spend 45 hit points to increase their saving throw bonus by 3 before the fact and 68 after the fact if they failed their roll by 3.
[*] Give boss monsters the ability to spawn minions from their hit points, with better minions coming from a proportionately higher hit point expenditure. This acts as a double-or-nothing force multiplication in which they get more actions and meat shields but puts them at a greater risk of AoEs.

[JonSetanta]

What minions in D&D are there that can provide healing?

Any goober with a wand or unlimited use item with a Cure spell on it.

Pixies might make the best.