Butthurt not welcome: D&D3e Alternatives for Multiclassing

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Tomawis
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Butthurt not welcome: D&D3e Alternatives for Multiclassing

Post by Tomawis »

As it has become evident that stating that I second edition, that it is going to be assumed that I'm into arguing about things. I suppose I need to start off by establishing something very basic. Comparing features of different editions does not mean I'm here to bash on the other. I wouldn't want to discuss a very specific aspect of it if that were the case, now would I? It also seems that those who got offended by opinions after my opinion warning really just play third edition, maybe have read the things but you can't really make worthwhile statements about something you don't really play yourself. If I've already hurt your your special feelings, just navigate out of the thread. I haven't even got into the topic yet.

Multiclassing in Dungeons and Dragons 3rd edition and its descendants is the worst implemented feature I've never seen in any D&D system. What it needs to do is allow players to despecialize, learning something new instead of just getting better at what they already know. What it actually does is making some classes completely worthless on their own and ruin others if they take a single level that isn't their own.

The much simpler group of the classes is the magic users. Use of magic is very tightly tied to spending every single level the character gets into the same class or a prestige class that learns the same magic. While being one level behind in the cleric spells isn't catastrophic, it already places the character below the other magic users in the campaign. Even worse, the good spells are loaded in the later levels, which handicaps the character until epic levels. With the spell progression of wizard or cleric, a difference of two levels already means one "missing" spell level and one less spell in all the previous levels.

Having established why one group of classes can't make use of the system at all, the classes without magic - namely fighter, barbarian and thief have no reason not to take other classes. You get most out of fighter in the first two levels unless you're really want to fill up several trees of feats. In which case the question becomes do you want more health and or thief's skills. For rogue, the only worthwhile ability that improves consistently from levels is sneak attack, but what good is it if the character doesn't have the base attack bonus to make use of it?

Barbarian is effectively extension of either of the two classes: Apart from skills and sneak attack the class gets everything thief gets and has the same BAB as fighter with more health. Barbarian's rage and Saves are mixed around for a bit compared to the rogue, but I would argue that being consistently decent in all of those is better than good in just one. Individual small things fighter or rogue would get are negligible if the alternative is being all around more better.

Multiclassing in the hybrid classes bard, paladin or ranger I don't consider an issue as they already are weaker versions of other classes with qualities from another. The system that is favoured classes and XP penalty is just so bad I don't even consider them worth talking about.

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What would be good multiclassing then? Well, AD&D 2nd edition has a good system, but the game works a bit differently. Most classes don't get all that many things and it has its own limitations. Regardless, I think it would be better in the third edition than the edition's own. If anything, the system is a little too useful. The post is already quite long, but I feel that if someone else wants to try these, it's better to explain it so they don't have to go look for AD&D books.

What's closer to third edition multiclassing is called dual classing and in that edition it's only available for humans, who in turn can't multiclass. The character gets a new class and stops gaining levels in the previous class forever. Instead they level up in the new class as if they started from level one. They will always be a little bit behind single class characters, which is diminished as the levels start taking more and more experience. Taking a new class this way has a requirement of having the new class' primary ability or abilities at 16. Additionally, the character can't use their old class' abilities until the new one passes the old in level. I think this is where favoured classes would work; The racial favoured class could be what the character can dual class out of.

What is actually called multiclassing does not have an analogue in third edition had its successor added in some supplement as an alternative (thank you for correcting), and something similar was brought back as hybrids in the fourth. The character starts with two or three classes, splitting the experience between them. Significantly slower, the character remains alright in all of the classes. For statistic that increase with levels, they get the best of the classes. The hit points are half or a third of each class I'm not sure if this one would be balanced with the evened out experiences; In the older editions mages would gain levels slower than any other class, while thief is much faster, twice the rate of mage at first. The XP penalty might make sense here.

Further explanation on how the system works, as it turned out to be required, from later in the thread:
In third edition it's the total character level that determines how long does it take to progress in levels. In second edition it's the level in a class that determines it. A fighter takes the same amount of experience to gain level 2, no matter if it's the characters first or third class. Taking a large amount of experience for example, a mage gains the fourth level at 10000 points of experience. The same amount split between two classes, say thief and a mage makes the charcter thief 4/mage 3.

For dual classing, I think you are overestimating the time it takes to gain the old class back, not to mention you keep anything that lets you survive. Again, arbitrarily choosing an amount of experience, let's say I play a fighter until level 3, and then switch to cleric. Level 3 fighter has already 4000 experience, while for cleric reaches the same level in just 3000 experience, which is 1000 points before fighter gets level 4.

Obviously some classes are more compatible with having several classes than others: Generally you don't want to slow down your advancement as a mage even more, but "2-4 levels" behind is hardly the case. You can't really dual class starting as a spellcaster because picking another class stops your progression in the previous class forever. With the way mage is designed, I wouldn't want to switch out of mage after becoming good, but to survive better at low levels. On a final tangent, the bonuses are consistently a little bit higher as ability modifiers go up on even numbers, while in AD&D dexterity starts improving AC at 16, at +1. Which means not being quite caught up in the fighter levels of a multiclass character isn't that big of a deal.
Any thoughts on my lengthy rant about the issues of multiclassing? Or if you have a solution of your own, I'd like to hear that as well.
Last edited by Tomawis on Fri Apr 25, 2014 3:04 am, edited 8 times in total.
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Post by ACOS »

*note: I'm not necessarily endorsing anything in this post. I'm merely making an observation*

The way the classes are designed in D&D (at least in the 3.x-type paradigm) is intentionally to enforce the idea of niche protection. The multiclassing rules are specifically intended to discourage multiclassing - allowing it as they do is basically just saying "well, if you reeeealy want to ...". Pick a thing to do and do - varying from that path comes with considerable cost. "Oh, you want to do multiple things? Take a hybrid class.".
If you don't want specialization or niche protection, D&D as written is probably not the game you're looking for. And for many, this level of niche protection and specialization is a feature, not a flaw.
Tomawis wrote: What is actually called multiclassing does not have an analogue in third edition, but something similar was brought back as hybrids in the fourth. The character starts with two or three classes, splitting the experience between them. Significantly slower, the character remains alright in all of the classes. I'm not sure if this one would be balanced with the evened out experiences; In the older editions mages would gain levels slower than any other class, while thief is much faster, twice the rate of mage at first. The XP penalty might make sense here.
The analog to this in 3.x is gestalt. Instead of splitting the XP, you just divide it by the # of class tracks (allowing for more than just 2-class gestalt). In 2ndE, you could have up to 3 class tracks. When you have equalized XP for all the classes, dividing the XP is functionally the same as splitting it; except you now only have 1 single # to track.
I've tried this in mixed parties, and it works out well enough, once you get past 3rd level (it takes that long for things to shake out). Because of how XP works in 3.x, the gestalts stay just far enough behind that they're not overshadowing the single-track characters; but not so far back that they're too weak.
Though, at high levels (past 15th), the general wonkiness of the game is amplified.


At least, that's my thoughts on it.
Last edited by ACOS on Wed Apr 23, 2014 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by ...You Lost Me »

If you have a system where you need to get level-appropriate abilities from your class, multiclassing is never a good thing to implement.

Good alternatives are mandated prestige classes and sub-classes.
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Post by Tomawis »

I don't think you understand what I meant, You Lost Me. Third edition just goes all or nothing in terms of classes. I think third edition's multiclass rules are most broken in terms of casters, who don't work at all. I can see why would Wizards of the Coast want to prevent mages getting things outside of their class, but in the same game, the same multiclass mess has the non-magic using classes that don't really have any reason to not take several classes, even if it's just one level in fighter for the extra feat and proficiencies.

ACOS said the game doesn't really want to encourage multiclassing and considering how in AD&D pure fighter or thief was nearly pointless, I can see why it needed to be fixed. However I don't think the solution is to make some classes completely incompatible with multiclassing; You might as well make them unable to do so.

As for "level-appropriate abilities", my example of combining fighter, barbarian and rogue is example of how they work too well together. If you play a rogue, you can take a level in rogue in every three levels and still be just as good at the "thieving skills" as if you'd put every level into it.

The real problem is that it offers two extremes and nothing in between; One where you can completely ruin your character forever, the other where you get everything with no penalties. Neither of the two are good for the game experience.
Last edited by Tomawis on Wed Apr 23, 2014 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by OgreBattle »

How about multiclassing lets you gestalt, but you are at -1 level.

So you'd be a lvl 2 Fighter/Wizard with a party that has a level 3 Rogue
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Post by hyzmarca »

You can take any level in a class up to your character level.

Thus, if you're a Fighter 2 and gain your third character level you can take wizard 3 and be a fighter 2 wizard 3.

When you level up to four you can put that level in fighter, becoming fighter 4 wizard 3; wizard (fighter 2 wizard 4); or you can take a new class like rogue, which would make yuou a fighter 2 wizard 3 rogue 4.
Last edited by hyzmarca on Wed Apr 23, 2014 7:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by fectin »

I've been tempted for a while to try running it as a level-buy system sometime, where you just buy class levels with xp as currency, and there is no concept of character level (numbers overlap instead of stacking, so there's a lot less advantage to picking all up level one in every class).

I have no idea how that would work out, but my instinct is that it would help martials more than magic.
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Post by Ferret »

OgreBattle wrote:How about multiclassing lets you gestalt, but you are at -1 level.

So you'd be a lvl 2 Fighter/Wizard with a party that has a level 3 Rogue
That's basically what happens when you divide XP for a Gestalt.

The only problem with Gestalt is that it wasn't the default mutliclassing system. If I had to change anything, I'd wish that each class was a 25% hit to XP instead of 50%
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Post by Roog »

Tomawis wrote:As for "level-appropriate abilities", my example of combining fighter, barbarian and rogue is example of how they work too well together.
Do you actually think that a multi-classed fighter/barbarian/rogue should be weaker than it currently is?
Tomawis wrote:If you play a rogue, you can take a level in rogue in every three levels and still be just as good at the "thieving skills" as if you'd put every level into it..
If you care about skill ranks in "thieving skills" (and it sounds like you do), a character with one in three levels of rogue will have significantly fewer skill points to spend on them.
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Post by Tomawis »

Roog wrote:Do you actually think that a multi-classed fighter/barbarian/rogue should be weaker than it currently is?
Admittedly, it's more fault of the class design than the multiclass system. But it'd help if the player wasn't able to choose exactly what they want.
Roog wrote:If you care about skill ranks in "thieving skills" (and it sounds like you do), a character with one in three levels of rogue will have significantly fewer skill points to spend on them.
Thief gets so many skill points that it hardly matters. Taking the fighter levels the skills may fall a bit behind, but not having the skills two or three ranks lower isn't that big of a deal.
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Post by Ice9 »

Ideally, you would always get abilities relevant to your total level; your investment in a class would just determine how many of them you had. So for example, a Rogue 9/Wizard 1 would just have one or two spells, but they would be (in 3E terms) 5th level spells.

This would require a major revamp to how things work though, something more like 4E (but not shit) where everyone has powers on a roughly similar schedule. If you want to have different resource management for different classes (and you might, there are some advantages in doing so), then you pretty much can't have arbitrary multiclassing, you'd need to go with a main class / subclass system, or something like that.


In 3E as it is, I would go simple: Gestalt at +1 LA, and maybe Tristalt at +2. Works reasonably well, most combinations are viable. If someone wants a dip ability, then writing up a feat for it seems like the way to go.
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Post by ...You Lost Me »

Tomawis wrote:I don't think you understand what I meant, You Lost Me. Third edition just goes all or nothing in terms of classes. I think third edition's multiclass rules are most broken in terms of casters, who don't work at all. I can see why would Wizards of the Coast want to prevent mages getting things outside of their class, but in the same game, the same multiclass mess has the non-magic using classes that don't really have any reason to not take several classes, even if it's just one level in fighter for the extra feat and proficiencies.
The only reason mundanes get benefits from multiclassing as it currently exists is because mundane classes are generally crap. For example, the boost in horizontal power you gain from picking up a level in warblade is bigger than the vertical power you would gain from taking another level in fighter. Normally trading vertical power for horizontal power is Bad Design (tm), but since the classes have jack for their vertical power, you don't feel the hurt when you multi-class.

If you try to multiclass with Races of War Barbarian, Dungeonomicon Monk, or Races of War Samurai, you feel the hurt in a similar way to casters because your abilities will quickly become inappropriate to your level (though your BAB and feats will not, so it'll be nicer).

Multiclassing using with XP/lvl penalties is bad for the same reason regular multiclassing is bad. Multiclassing by letting people pick up a Xth level of any class at level X is obviously so bad that we can safely ignore it.
The real problem is that it offers two extremes and nothing in between; One where you can completely ruin your character forever, the other where you get everything with no penalties. Neither of the two are good for the game experience.
The way you avoid multiclassing problems is by not doing multiclassing. Instead have required prestige classes or subclasses and call that "multiclassing" instead.
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Re: [D&D 3rd Edition] Alternatives for Multiclassing

Post by Josh_Kablack »

Tomawis wrote:Multiclassing in Dungeons and Dragons 3rd edition and its descendants is the worst implemented feature I've never seen in any D&D system.
Congrats on missing all all the prior editions.
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Post by Tomawis »

...You Lost Me wrote:The way you avoid multiclassing problems is by not doing multiclassing. Instead have required prestige classes or subclasses and call that "multiclassing" instead.
I guess there is no problem in not having a car if I never leave the house, right?
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Post by Roog »

Tomawis wrote:
Roog wrote:Do you actually think that a multi-classed fighter/barbarian/rogue should be weaker than it currently is?
Admittedly, it's more fault of the class design than the multiclass system. But it'd help if the player wasn't able to choose exactly what they want.
So do you think that a multi-classed fighter/barbarian/rogue is currently too powerful?
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Post by Tomawis »

Fighter/barbarian/rogue doesn't have the raw power of just fighter/barbarian, that's true. But instead of imagining it in the place of the of the group's main warrior, imagine a party at level 7 where the "rogue" is something like fighter 2/barbarian 3/rogue 2. It has all the benefits that level 7 rogue would, save for borderline useless special abilities and sneak attack, which they make up for with martial weapon proficiency, rage, armour and health.
Last edited by Tomawis on Wed Apr 23, 2014 10:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by schpeelah »

...You Lost Me wrote:The only reason mundanes get benefits from multiclassing as it currently exists is because mundane classes are generally crap. For example, the boost in horizontal power you gain from picking up a level in warblade is bigger than the vertical power you would gain from taking another level in fighter. Normally trading vertical power for horizontal power is Bad Design (tm), but since the classes have jack for their vertical power, you don't feel the hurt when you multi-class.
No, the reasons why those classes benefit from multiclassing is that most of their class features improve the same actions, such as attacking, instead of giving new action to perform, like casting fireball, and because they scale badly. The 3rd level of core Fighter adds much less to a level 2 Fighter than the 1st level of Barbarian, and that would still apply if you uniformly boosted those classes to overpoweredness across all levels keeping the power curve's shape the same.
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Post by ...You Lost Me »

schpeelah wrote:No, the reasons why those classes benefit from multiclassing is that most of their class features improve the same actions, such as attacking, instead of giving new action to perform, like casting fireball, and because they scale badly. The 3rd level of core Fighter adds much less to a level 2 Fighter than the 1st level of Barbarian, and that would still apply if you uniformly boosted those classes to overpoweredness across all levels keeping the power curve's shape the same.
You obviously didn't do the thing I said to do and instead just started talking out your ass. Watch me bathe you in enlightenment with your own example, but with balanced classes:

Imagine you are Fighter 2. In regular D&D where fighters are bad, going fighter 3 gets you +1 BAB/Ref/Wil and nothing else, so it's obvious that going Barbarian is better regardless of the attack synergy it grants. In Tome D&D where fighters don't suck, going fighter 3 gives you the ability to spend a swift action and gain any [Combat] feat you would like, where fighter 2 / barbarian 1 only gives you DR 2/-, which is obviously comparatively crappy despite the synergy.

I mean, it's tautological that synergistic classes will work well together, but the reason 3e mundanes multiclass so well is that level 3, or even levels 5 and 10 are similar in power to level 1. This is the reason that warblades, swordsages, and crusaders (scaling mundane classes) are not good at multiclassing even though they all are designed around hitting people.
Tomawis wrote:I guess there is no problem in not having a car if I never leave the house, right?
Name one benefit lost with the removal of multiclassing that isn't provided by forced prestige classing and sub-classes. It has to be a benefit, so XP penalties, REALIZARM, and juggling subsystems are not supporting points.
Last edited by ...You Lost Me on Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:52 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Post by tussock »

For the most part, if you just make most of the progressions relative to total level rather than class level, it works a lot better than 3e's default.

Anything that's a progression, but can overlap rather than stack with other classes' things, and is not an X/day type function, you have it at total character level.

Unlike Gestalt, you only get the high level abilities if you have high levels in that particular class. So a base damage or base speed progression doesn't stack and is at total level, and bonus damage or bonus speed does stack and is at class level. Feat access all by total level, and rebuild feat choices every level if you want to, so bonus feats aren't completely useless and can all be high level feats once you get there.
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Post by Username17 »

I read the OP until I got to the part where they claimed that 2nd edition multiclassing was in any way good, and then I stopped. 2nd edition AD&D had atrocious multiclassing rules. Demihuman multiclassing was broken and stupid, and human dual classing was stupid and broken. They weren't remotely fair and made no sense on any level. Fuck that system, and specifically fuck its multiclassing system.

Multiclassing is inherently a stupid idea. It's a stupid idea because the character classes in the basic book aren't supposed to be exhaustive of what characters could potentially do, but the levels are supposed to correspond to what characters need to be able to do to hit the "you must be this tall" signs on adventures. If you have a character idea that you want to play, and it's not covered by any of the classes, either write a new class or accept that the game doesn't cover the concept you want to play.

Classes provide abilities at levels that ideally should allow them to pass a same game test of that level. Getting abilities at later levels mean that they won't be online when they are needed, and then you won't be playing at the level you're supposed to be playing at. Numbers are the same way. You get an attack bonus because of what the defenses of the enemies you face at your level are going to be - and vice versa. If your numbers are behind, you aren't level appropriate by definition.

The whole concept of grabbing abilities from two piles at the expense of being behind in both is broken on first principles. While it's theoretically possible to make that balanced in some instances, it's simply never ever going to happen.

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Post by Tomawis »

I don't think levels and experience work in 2nd edition the way you think they do. First of all, even without multiclassing, the different classes gain levels at different amounts of experience, meaning it's very rare that everyone in the party is on the same level anyway. Until higher levels where mages suddenly start getting levels as fast as fighters, the experience required for the next level is close to double from the previous, instead of increasing by thousand as 3rd edition does most of the levels. Just sticking with multiclassing for sake of simplicity, this means that multiclass characters are just a single level behind most of time.

Edit: Using bad grammar as an argument, one that I corrected almost immediately. Real mature. But if you want to turn this into an edition war thread, I suggest you take your opinions and tell them to someone who is interested in arguing about it.
Last edited by Tomawis on Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Username17 »

Tomawis wrote:I don't you think how levels and experience work in 2nd edition.
I don't you think either. Levels and experience in 2nd edition were a war crime. I use past tense, because 2nd edition AD&D is, fortunately, a dead letter.

If level is to mean anything at all, it has to mean the same thing for different characters. AD&D's "level as completely arbitrary advancement point that had nothing to do with character power or the difficulty of reaching said point" was the most retarded thing that ever happened. 3rd edition moving away from that was unambiguously a good thing.

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Post by icyshadowlord »

As much as I prefer 3e to 2nd, I still find it kinda pathetic that you only bitch about how bad AD&D was instead of actually giving some examples of how / why it didn't work. Also, come on. Picking at a guy for a grammar fail? I thought you were better than that.
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Post by Username17 »

icyshadowlord wrote:As much as I prefer 3e to 2nd, I still find it kinda pathetic that you only bitch about how bad AD&D was instead of actually giving some examples of how / why it didn't work.
That's not actually how things work. AD&D's advancement system has no design goals, so you can't give examples of how or why it didn't work. It's not supposed to do anything, so it can't fail to do any of the things it's supposed to do. That's the beginning and the end of it.

You can demonstrate that some characters are massively better than others, and indeed in a 1st level one-shot game the Fight/Mage is literally better than the Mage in every single possible way. But that's not a failing of design principles, because AD&D's advancement system isn't supposed to be fair! You can demonstrate that the entire voluntary refrainment from using your "fighter abilities" (whatever the fuck that's supposed to be) while studying magic for your dual classing is frickin retarded and doesn't make any sense. But that's not a failure either, because AD&D's advancement system isn't supposed to make any sense! You can show that there are monsters or adventures against whom failing to have specific abilities because you are a level or two behind means that you're super fucked, but that's not a failure either.

AD&D has expectations so low that it total crap in spite of meeting those expectations. It's not that AD&D fails its limited design goals, it's that you should have some fucking self respect and set your sights higher than that.

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Post by erik »

Tomawis wrote: Edit: Using bad grammar as an argument, one that I corrected almost immediately. Real mature. But if you want to turn this into an edition war thread, I suggest you take your opinions and tell them to someone who is interested in arguing about it.
Did your brain just shut down when he mocked you and fail to read the rest of the words, or did it shut down long before that? Find someone to think on this carefully for you because these are your only available options.

I presume you are not a party interested in arguing about it because you don't know what the hell an argument is.

If Frank had made fun of your error and said "because this guy cannot type he is wrong" that would have been an argument (and a fallacy). But what he did was smirk at your error and then proceed to make the statement that AD&D 2e levels fail since they are not comparable (an argument he already had made and has not yet been refuted).
icyshadowlord wrote:Picking at a guy for a grammar fail? I thought you were better than that.
Oh fuck no.

A guy writes "I don't you think how" to say that you don't know what you are talking about and then flails about failing to address your argument (and in fact giving examples that support it!) and you don't take the shot? What the fuck? I don't want to live in that world! I don't you think how stupid that is, icy.
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