Edge of the Empire

[Longes]

I'm about to enter Edge of the Empire game. Any tips, tricks, problems with the systems I should be aware of?

[silva]

It shares *World games non-binary resolution so be prepared for some on-the-fly improvising from GM and players sides.

[Aryxbez]

Dude, we already have two threads on this bizzle. So forced to read you must, and learn you will. Far as its forums go, they're an outdated wasteland of poor thinking, where most of its fans hate on anyone providing any rules analysis at all, let alone...."optimization".

As said in the first link, there is an issue with BEARS coming up constantly, and unless ye have a SUPER-DUPER DM, he's probably going to be repeating himself multiple times in one combat. An example of BEARS screwing you over, each skill has specific uses for what symbols mean what, and Pickpocketing is the worst in that, a Disadvantage? symbol means you get caught by the person. So ye can "succeeded in taking the object", but then get caught, and deal with being screwed there. Vehicles rules last I heard, didn't have any organization to how long certain actions take (so doing things in half time of....??? isn't helpful), Jetpacks fly as fast as speeders (I'd just houserules they move two man-man movement ranges in personal combat, and as-is when Flying in comparison to vehicles).

Doctors make the best unarmed combatants in CORE, as they can get a unarmed attack that adds a stat, and ignores soak. DROIDS are a damn pretty good race, if ye wanna hyper specialize into something. Critfishing is very worthwhile, I've seen fans use the ruling where can activate symbols to auto-kill a minion, so Vibro knives can take out goons by quite a bit. 250xp seems to be considered "end-game" level, where ye should be pretty powerful at this point, capable of having a soak as high as 12. Speaking of Soak, ye likely want to get as much as ye can grab, Bounty Hunter is a really good class, and check out the first link provided, should have some info that I've sorta summarized here.

[silva]

I love that each character begins with a debt to pay, which can generate complications during seasons. It feats nicely with the scoundrel han-solo like nature of the setting.

[Dean]

I would be more interested in hearing you tell us the various ways things broke during your time in the game than us telling you the ways things will probably break. I'm also interested if Droids ended up being unusably bad or unusably good, as balanced was never an option.

[Aryxbez]

I love that each character begins with a debt to pay, which can generate complications during seasons.

I agree it's a nice touch that can force some improvising on the Group to a random session, and help instill some background/motivation for a PC. However it suffers from rule of freezing up ability to "Level-up" if you hit 100%+ on group total, as well that it's not easily changeable with the dropping/adding of players respectively. Since the cost lessens per more players, it makes each PC less interesting in turn the more there are, as they'll have less options to gain benefits from to make their characters.

I would be more interested in hearing you tell us the various ways things broke during your time in the game than us telling you the ways things will probably break. I'm also interested if Droids ended up being unusably bad or unusably good, as balanced was never an option.

Well, in one of the threads I posted, Theflatline had two session reports, which brought some of the conclusions I mentioned here. Unfortunately he quit right after, and my experience with it didn't go past the first session unfortunately (due to worry of 7-ish session expiration date when the game likely breaks down w/15xp per session). Though in my experience, there was definitely the issue of the DM constantly making up more stuff with BEARS, since it came up all too often for any human to generate new fiat content. In said thread, Droids were talked about here.

However, there is possibilty of the game getting back together, if so, I can share further "session reports" from there. Also, I haven't checked out the supplements for Hired Gun/Explorer classes, nor the "Han-Solo- Planet" to see if Power creep has set in yet or what, so let us know what all material is getting used for your game Longes

[Longes]

I would be more interested in hearing you tell us the various ways things broke during your time in the game than us telling you the ways things will probably break. I'm also interested if Droids ended up being unusably bad or unusably good, as balanced was never an option.

Sure. If the group ends up chosing Edge of the Empire for the next game, I'll tell you what happened.

[TheFlatline]

I'm about to enter Edge of the Empire game. Any tips, tricks, problems with the systems I should be aware of?

Dump points into toughness. Play as a trandoshan or wookie. I think Trandoshan might be preferable to wookie.

Take a level in blasters and maybe something else, and dump the rest of your points into toughness. I forgot what level of toughness is the mystical threshold of immunity, but like at 7 or 8 suddenly it becomes almost impossible to wound you if you have any basic armor on. In your average firefight, you *might* take a point or two of damage on a successful hit, and your hit points are based off of your toughness.

Take extra obligation for more chargen points. Put into toughness. Wash, rinse, repeat.

You've pretty much just won the combat mini-game because you are absurdly survivable in combat while almost everyone else isn't.

Of course, combat is going to take 3 times as long because you can't hit the broad side of a barn but who gives a shit.

My game failed quickly because I found the game to be utterly boring and generic, and incomplete in weird ways.

Like... jumping to lightspeed. The rules *aren't* actually in the fucking game. I mean, there are "rules" in the game that address it, but they're not playable as written.

But more than that the characters just never got to do cool shit, and I"m infamous for allowing characters to get away with doing cool shit. Compared to WFRPG the average starting character had like 3-5 significant abilities as a starting character that could impact social or combat settings in a significant way.

Star Wars you get like percentage modifiers and the ability to upgrade dice and shit. Which is mechanically useful but not... well... interesting. I came to the conclusion I could take almost any other game in existence and slap Star Wars paint on it and have more fun. Even the WEG Star Wars was better because the system was simpler and easier and got out of the way of the game.

Having lots of crunchy game bits that were boring as fuck is a recipe to lose interest fast.

[Longes]

I wanted to make a Force User, is that a bad idea? It seems that with dumping XP into Move I can start with the ability to throw tie-fighters right from the chargen.

[TheFlatline]

I straight up didn't allow force users. I have no opinion on how the Force plays out.

[Longes]

Well, I'm getting worried. Apparently this group are a big old-school fans, like LotFP very much, and the GM wants to do character creation through random tables.

[Krusk]

My buddies husband is a huge old school RPG fan and when he saw the corebook on my shelf he freaked. Apparently its doing very well in the "2nd ed is awesome" community. Probably due to its grimdark word play (grimdark star wars. Yes)combined with its rules lite nature allowing "The GM expanded abilities to make rulings as needed".

Instead of just having good rules.

My verdict on this game is that it fails on a few major concepts. (I've only read the first/main book).

Rules - The actual rules are terrible. They produce weird results and are not clearly written.
Rules Lite Game - This is a 443 page rules lite RPG.
Fluff - Its a star wars game and no one can be Jedi.
Game Play - You've got to use custom dice that are a pain in the ass, and expensive. Converting them is possible but then you've got to convert them.
Character Generation - Uses that same awful flow chart progression system rogue trader uses. I hated it there too.

[Dogbert]

Apparently its doing very well in the "2nd ed is awesome" community.

That's all I needed to hear to know to steer clear of it, thanks for the warning!

[Aryxbez]

Well, I'm getting worried. Apparently this group are a big old-school fans, like LotFP very much, and the GM wants to do character creation through random tables.

That's simply just awful and unfair, it's limiting enough to do what ye can to make a good character, sure as Oblivion don't need dice to puck that up. Any way you can tell them to least try the game "as-is", before adding new houserules or whatever? That way, even if there's not much houserules can add to make it better, they won't be adding ones that make it WORSE.

Character Generation - Uses that same awful flow chart progression system rogue trader uses. I hated it there too.

While I've not played Rogue-Trader, I actually like the idea of progression being done this way. It's part of planning a character, looking through other classes can synergize, and the combos that've come of this set-up that makes the rules part of the game an exciting aspect for me. However, I've heard Rogue-Trader has actual defining abilities compared to the RNG adjusting you mainly get in Edge of the Empire. So unsure if it's worth a look or not, despite Warhammerk 40K RPG is apparently very awful.

[Longes]

Character Generation - Uses that same awful flow chart progression system rogue trader uses. I hated it there too.

While I've not played Rogue-Trader, I actually like the idea of progression being done this way. It's part of planning a character, looking through other classes can synergize, and the combos that've come of this set-up that makes the rules part of the game an exciting aspect for me. However, I've heard Rogue-Trader has actual defining abilities compared to the RNG adjusting you mainly get in Edge of the Empire. So unsure if it's worth a look or not, despite Warhammerk 40K RPG is apparently very awful.

There is actually a positive difference from the Rogue Trader's system. In Rogue Trader once you've chosen to be a Psyker, for example, you take Psyker advances forever, with no option to start taking Techpriest advances. In EotE you can stop taking Assassin's talents, buy yourself a Politico specialization, and start taking talents from it.

[Laertes]

While I've not played Rogue-Trader, I actually like the idea of progression being done this way. It's part of planning a character, looking through other classes can synergize, and the combos that've come of this set-up that makes the rules part of the game an exciting aspect for me. However, I've heard Rogue-Trader has actual defining abilities compared to the RNG adjusting you mainly get in Edge of the Empire. So unsure if it's worth a look or not, despite Warhammer 40K RPG is apparently very awful.

Rogue Trader is tremendous fun if you're not too attached to optimisation or balance and have an old-school-Games Workshop-style sense of humour about it. If you're the sort of person who gets a significant portion of their fun from "winning" chargen, though, it's probably not for you.

The most important skills in Rogue Trader don't adjust the RNG so much as just give you the right to make the roll at all. Therefore, the guy making the roll isn't the best in the party, but is the only one in the party who can even attempt it. It's a crude method of specialisation but works well for defining characters. At high levels this breaks down, but by then the game is pretty unplayable anyway due to high-power-level-itis.

Back in the day, WFRP did the flowchart-style character progression, and I remember it being hilariously good. Then again, I was younger then and I've never been particularly bothered by such things as balance and power level. YMMV.

[Krusk]

Its shit for a lot of reasons. Ill list 1.

Specific example. I opened the book to random talent tree page 65. This is the Colonist Doctor tree. If I've got the surgeon talent and I want the Grit Talent I can buy it for 15 points. Or, I can buy it for 5 points. OR I can pay 20 (or more) to pick up a new specialization (Scholar) and then 5 more points to get grit. If I'm good at the game (or not retarded) I only pay 5 points. If I'm bad at the game, or simply didn't check the price costs of everything I pay a tax.

How much is grit worth? No one knows. Somewhere between 5 and 25 points. Potentially more. It all depends on how good you min/max and scour the source books for the cheapest way to get each power.

[Longes]

Its shit for a lot of reasons. Ill list 1.

Specific example. I opened the book to random talent tree page 65. This is the Colonist Doctor tree. If I've got the surgeon talent and I want the Grit Talent I can buy it for 15 points. Or, I can buy it for 5 points. OR I can pay 20 (or more) to pick up a new specialization (Scholar) and then 5 more points to get grit. If I'm good at the game (or not retarded) I only pay 5 points. If I'm bad at the game, or simply didn't check the price costs of everything I pay a tax.

How much is grit worth? No one knows. Somewhere between 5 and 25 points. Potentially more. It all depends on how good you min/max and scour the source books for the cheapest way to get each power.

Multiple instances of the same talent stack, so all bought Grits give you the benefit.

[TheFlatline]

Its shit for a lot of reasons. Ill list 1.

Specific example. I opened the book to random talent tree page 65. This is the Colonist Doctor tree. If I've got the surgeon talent and I want the Grit Talent I can buy it for 15 points. Or, I can buy it for 5 points. OR I can pay 20 (or more) to pick up a new specialization (Scholar) and then 5 more points to get grit. If I'm good at the game (or not retarded) I only pay 5 points. If I'm bad at the game, or simply didn't check the price costs of everything I pay a tax.

How much is grit worth? No one knows. Somewhere between 5 and 25 points. Potentially more. It all depends on how good you min/max and scour the source books for the cheapest way to get each power.

That's hardly the worst accusation you can level at EOTE. Nobody had trouble understanding that different abilities were at different places on different talent trees, that they all stacked, and that yes, dipping into soldier or whatever would give you lots of Grit Talent for cheap while the braniac talent tree would make that advance more expensive.

The advantages/disadvantages and interpreting the symbols and building the dice pools were the #1 WrongBad thing about the system. The sheer boredom induced by the talents was a 2nd, and the lack of a base amount of time for things like calculating a jump to lightspeed when you clearly had multiple talents that modified that time frame is unforgivable.

[Krusk]

longes, go read what I wrote. My complaint is not that they cost different amounts when you take it a second and then third time. Its that they cost different amounts when you take them for the first time.

TheFlatline.

Its shit for a lot of reasons. Ill list 1.

That's hardly the worst accusation you can level at EOTE

Its almost like I only picked a single reason to list. One that was related to the conversation at hand. Specifically their terrible stupid talent progression thing.

dogbert - Everytime this guy is excited about an RPG I immediately know that it is shit. Its seriously a litmus test, because the guy is a caricature of the terrible grognard stereotype.

[silva]

longes, go read what I wrote. My complaint is not that they cost different amounts when you take it a second and then third time. Its that they cost different amounts when you take them for the first time.

Still dont get it. If each cost for the same feat is associated with how important / easy / thematic linked it is for each occupation, and you also has a cost for changing between occupations, then I dont see a problem with it.

The advantages/disadvantages and interpreting the symbols and building the dice pools were the #1 WrongBad thing about the system. The sheer boredom induced by the talents was a 2nd, and the lack of a base amount of time for things like calculating a jump to lightspeed when you clearly had multiple talents that modified that time frame is unforgivable.

Didnt see any problem with those too. Though Ive only did some tests with the game, not engaged in an actual campaign.

[Krusk]

Still dont get it. If each cost for the same feat is associated with how important / easy / thematic linked it is for each occupation, and you also has a cost for changing between occupations, then I dont see a problem with it.

Its not dependant on theme/importance for your character. Its priced dependant on your optimization and dumpster diving ability.

[deaddmwalking]

You missed your closed quote tab.

[TheFlatline]

longes, go read what I wrote. My complaint is not that they cost different amounts when you take it a second and then third time. Its that they cost different amounts when you take them for the first time.

TheFlatline.

Its shit for a lot of reasons. Ill list 1.

That's hardly the worst accusation you can level at EOTE

Its almost like I only picked a single reason to list. One that was related to the conversation at hand. Specifically their terrible stupid talent progression thing.

Except that you said there's tons of stuff wrong with the system and you said you'd pick one. But whatever.

This issue in the end is hardly a deal breaker though compared to everything else and is roughly analogous to multiclassing or level dipping in D&D to pick up abilities easily/cheaply.

It also doesn't exactly reflect the system. Each time you "dumpster dive" into another talent tree the cost goes up. So your first talent tree is free, the second is 5xp, the third is 10, the 4th is 15, etc etc...

So that 3rd talent tree you dumpster dipped into to get the talent for 5xp has an actual cost of 15xp and is equivalent to buying a 3rd level talent in any of your other talent trees you already owned.

If you wanted to meet halfway, I'll agree that every system in the game seems obfuscated. There's definitive mechanical systems working here and they're hidden by needless complication.

It still violates my rule 1: Have fun. If you're not having fun, do something else.

[Longes]

I just noticed that you can't increase your stats in play. This is horrible.