So what good can we take from D&D 5th edition?

SubversionArts · Post by **SubversionArts** » Fri Mar 06, 2015 5:03 pm

I get it, everyone here (or nearly everyone) hates on 5e. It's too simplistic. It's too low power. It's another caster edition. It's broken. Big deal, there are plenty of places to bash on it. It's fun to do.

But what "innovations" are there that other games could, or maybe should, adopt? I only know so much about 5e, but the main thing that comes to mind when I think about this is the system of advantage and disadvantage.

I mean, I love me some complexity. But there's something appealing about a mechanic that says (in a simple way)...if I can show I have an advantage in the world, I should get an advantage in the system. Whether or not that mechanic should be, "roll two dice, pick the best result" or something else, is certainly worth discussion. And the design choice to make any advantage counter any and all disadvantages, and to make any disadvantage counter any and all disadvantages...is worthy of discussion. (I don't know a great way to explain that mechanic as implemented... If you have six advantages against one disadvantage, it's considered a wash and you receive no mechanical advantage. Vice verses as well).

Is this concept an overall good thing, or bad? How about the specifics of the implementation?

Anything else that can be swiped from 5e for current or future games? How about ease of entry for new players? Or maybe re-entry of older players disillusioned after the past few editions?

spongeknight · Post by **spongeknight** » Fri Mar 06, 2015 5:19 pm

Advantage existed in 3e- it was called a circumstance bonus, and it gave you a +2 modifier to your check. The only thing 5e did was slightly increase the average result of a circumstance bonus and let you roll it, which sometimes didn't actually give you a bonus at all because it introduced a little randomness into the result. Also, the "no stacking circumstances ever" rule is really retarded. It does speed up play a little bit- you roll up to combat drunk or whatever and then you don't care about any penalty at all that you receive from that point, because any mouth breather can get one source of advantage to counteract it- but it's just stupid. I don't know everything that's disadvantage and everything that's a separate debuff, but I'm sure you can concoct a scenario that might actually happen in game where a character suffers 10 sources of crippling penalties that amount to a total of nothing because that character has high ground or something equally inconsequential.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Fri Mar 06, 2015 5:36 pm

5E doesn't have a lot of new ideas. The thing where you can pick up new skills between level gains is decent, but not particularly noteworthy. The game calls this proficiency gains, and you may recall that K and I suggested that people be able to pick up proficiencies between level gains with some downtime training back in the tomes. The backgrounds aren't a terrible plan either, but again K and I did that back in the tomes and even called the things "backgrounds."

Honestly, the things I would take from 5E are things that I already wrote into free 3e supplements 10 years ago. That's not hipsterism, it's public record.

-Username17

MfA · Post by **MfA** » Fri Mar 06, 2015 6:10 pm

Advantage is just a poor replacement for developer discipline in keeping the number of stacking bonuses limited. Without going for a dicepool like system it's limitations are annoying, with a dicepool system you just introduce more complexity than bonuses. You can have a stunt system to give bonuses without advantage.

I think the concept of lair bonuses is a good way to have boss fights without breaking symmetry between PCs and NPCs.

SubversionArts · Post by **SubversionArts** » Fri Mar 06, 2015 7:52 pm

One thing that I'd forgotten about that maybe is new to 5e, would be using each ability stat as a saving throw. Maybe this isn't new at all (as I'm learning) because I dipped out of D&D just at the end of 2e and know very very little about 3e and 4e.

Insomniac · Post by **Insomniac** » Fri Mar 06, 2015 7:54 pm

Even if you don't get feats as a default, I like that the seem to be a good deal more potent, a good step in the right direction.

Even though Bounded Accuracy turns farcical and exploitable (Hi, necromancers!), it is at least an honest attempt to do math and have generally accepted guidelines for bonuses, attacks, AC, etc.

The skill gaining and backgrounds and lairs are all cool Granted, none of that is novel, much of it is 10 years old and "lairs" (areas where monsters are advantaged and can work tricks dreamed up by the DM) already kind of existed in DMG guidelines for adjusting CR up or down by environment about 15 years ago, but still. That is 3 good ideas that 5E managed to retain. So a small degree of kudos is in order for that.

Apart from that, it is another 3.5 heartbreaker "Pay Money for My Houserules" edition.
If you're already playing 3.5 or Pathfinder you may have been doing so for 5, 10, 15 years now. These have easily available rules and are officially free online in their totality for Pathfinder.

The reason to play 5E instead of existent, mature systems with a gargantuan amount of official and fan content while simply pilfering Advantage, Backgrounds, Skill Tweaks and Lairs as a concept is...

Bupkiss.

JonSetanta · Post by **JonSetanta** » Fri Mar 06, 2015 9:06 pm

My experience with 5e playtesting was that it's still a struggle to stay alive at level 1 even when facing by-the-book encounters.
Shit's not fun.

In 4e you had more HP due to the CON score thing. You don't even get that in 5e.

Blicero · Post by **Blicero** » Fri Mar 06, 2015 9:42 pm

SubversionArts wrote:One thing that I'd forgotten about that maybe is new to 5e, would be using each ability stat as a saving throw. Maybe this isn't new at all (as I'm learning) because I dipped out of D&D just at the end of 2e and know very very little about 3e and 4e.

Castles and Crusades, which is an older retroclone-like, did basically the same thing for saves I think. But C&C and 5E's system of six saving throws based on ability scores is not particularly novel compared to 3E's system of three saving throws based on ability scores. You're just using a smaller subset of your ability modifiers to generate your defense values.

Mask_De_H · Post by **Mask_De_H** » Fri Mar 06, 2015 10:09 pm

Giving every class intra-class variation is good and something that wasn't necessarily in the Tomes. The way multiclass spellcasting works is kind of nice (full casting for slots, if you have slots you can't use on one side, you can put your lower level spells in 'em and get the buff) and granting the martial classes magical shit (unfortunately it's bullshit small) is something that should've been done.

Standardizing skill and attack progressions isn't a new idea, but it's a good one.

Krusk · Post by **Krusk** » Sat Mar 07, 2015 12:56 am

I like the overall art style. Some specific pieces suck but by and large i enjoyed it.

Advantage was terrible. A normal attack is at the same penalty as an attack while blind, drunk, max range, with a made up weapon, and a minor buff from your bard. Same bonus applies for flanking, prone, bound, crippled opponents when you use a weapon thats slightly too big.

All 3 examples have no bonus.

Dogbert · Post by **Dogbert** » Sat Mar 07, 2015 2:35 am

If I had to choose something as 5E's contribution to d&d as a whole, that'd be Backgrounds.

JonSetanta · Post by **JonSetanta** » Sat Mar 07, 2015 4:22 am

Advantage/Disadvantage is awesome. It doesn't blow the top off a d20 roll.

Dean · Post by **Dean** » Sat Mar 07, 2015 4:37 am

There's something to be said for simplicity. It's the only thing 5E does which could be said to improve on 3E. Lets take the spell Stoneskin as an example.

In 3E Stoneskin is a spell that lasts 10 minutes per level, it gives you DR 10/Adamantine until a number of damage equaling your caster level X 10 has been absorbed at which point it dispels.

In 5E Stoneskin lasts 1 hour and makes you take half damage from all physical attacks.

The 3rd edition version of the spell has a fiddly duration that no one tracks in game, it makes you fiddle with damage unless the weapon used is specifically adamantine, then makes you keep track of the damage prevented in its own weird pile. The 5E spell takes up lots less time and conceptual space. It fills the same function and does so faster and more simply. Someone coming into the game for the first time could understand what 5E's stoneskin did exactly and how useful it was. 3E is a much better ruleset in total but a 3E revamping would do well to hunt through the edition for everything that adds complexity for no benefit and remove it.

I think the only thing I like about 5E is that the complexity level it was going for feels correct to me. That doesn't excuse all the areas where they just wrote no rules whatsoever and pretended that was for the sake of removing complexity. Those are lies and bullshit. But in the areas where they actually wrote rules, completely, that function, and did so in a way that reduces complexity, that's something I think is good.

Insomniac · Post by **Insomniac** » Sat Mar 07, 2015 5:41 am

Is there a good way to end round tracking in the game?

1 round=1 Combat
10 minutes a level=2 Combats
1 hour a level is easy enough to keep track of
All Day Long duration, regardless of level cast.

If somebody casts Heroism at 10th level and Extends it somehow, do we really need to track the next 200 minutes diligently? Every adventurer should be traveling with a wristwatch it seems like.

Is there really a need for that?

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sat Mar 07, 2015 5:46 am

http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=51121

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Sat Mar 07, 2015 6:06 am

D&D5e seemed to purposefully avoid 'new ideas', their design goal was to satisfy players of previous editions. Though the idea of rerolling is something not completely new (Warhammer is all about that), formalizing it into advantage/disadvantage was a good idea. But they could have implemented it better by being more specific and strict about when it's handed out.

Based on the discussion at http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=362948
here's my shot at an advantage/disadvantage system. The design philosophy is that Ad/Dis should only be for actions that are pro-active and interesting, not passive:

---

Advantage happens when your target is...
-prone (be sure to trip some dudes while you're at it)
-restrained (from a druid's vines to an assassin's bolas, many ways to restrain)
-flat footed (catch them with a feint or just leap out of their toilet in surprise)
-unable to sense you (invisibility, scentless, etc.)
-distracted (from being flanked by a rogue n fghter pair to getting magic rainbows sprayed in your face)

Disadvantage happens when you suffer from...
-sensory overload/deprivation/deception/distraction (color sprays, darkness, illusions, camouflaged snipers, etc.)
-prone
-restrained (one of those comedic sequences where you run around with your arms tied behind your back dodging like Jackie Chan)

---

I just need to flesh out my list of 'conditions', and then it's about how to inflict those conditions on targets. Though it seems like anything that gives you advantage against your target should probably inflict disadvantage on the target too.

Insomniac · Post by **Insomniac** » Sat Mar 07, 2015 6:21 am

I still don't know how you get around the 5 for 1 thing if you are really committed to multiple d20 rolls. I think the math comes out to around a +3/-3 modifier, so that could be done.

The infamous "Its a blizzard and your right arm is broken and you are drunk and you are on a violently shaking rope bridge and its the dead of the night...But you are flanking your enemy...no Disadvantage" scenario seems inescapable if you are committed to rolling.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sat Mar 07, 2015 6:56 am

Insomniac wrote:I still don't know how you get around the 5 for 1 thing if you are really committed to multiple d20 rolls. I think the math comes out to around a +3/-3 modifier, so that could be done.

The infamous "Its a blizzard and your right arm is broken and you are drunk and you are on a violently shaking rope bridge and its the dead of the night...But you are flanking your enemy...no Disadvantage" scenario seems inescapable if you are committed to rolling.

No it isn't. Those things can fucking combine, like they would in any non shit system. In a shit system, like 5e, one stupid advantage can cancel out 30 disadvantages. In a non shit system, like 3e, they are cumulative, so if you are blind and broken armed and getting a buff from the bard, you are still at a penalty. And fuck, in a non shit system those bonuses could come at different magnitudes so being blind isn't canceled out by some guy being on slippery surface, because you are still fucking blind.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sat Mar 07, 2015 7:39 am

SubversionArts wrote:One thing that I'd forgotten about that maybe is new to 5e, would be using each ability stat as a saving throw. Maybe this isn't new at all (as I'm learning) because I dipped out of D&D just at the end of 2e and know very very little about 3e and 4e.

First of all, the "attribute test" construction showed up in D&D before there were skills. Secondly, using the attributes as defenses is a pretty old idea. Hell, I personally put together such a thing for TNE like 8 years ago. Ultimately I abandoned it because it turns out to be a shit idea. You can make some pretty math and create a situation where it is mathemagically fair to invest in Dexterity or Charisma, when it comes to actually describing that shit, it's bullshit. The fact of the matter is that it's very hard to come up with an attack that targets "Charisma Defense" and doesn't sound stupid. You can create them, and you can even create some that are usable by characters who aren't themed as wizards and telepaths, but having them appear in sufficient quantity to be equal in number to things that are resisted by "dodging" or "being tough" is simply not going to happen. The Dark Knight might have a booga-booga attack that targets Charisma Defense, but a fucking guard dog isn't.

And once you've conceded that Charisma Defense is necessarily something that is going to come up an asstonne less often in actual play than Dexterity Defense, you have to ask yourself why you're bothering to have one at all. And um... I never could answer that question and abandoned the project.

Like pretty much every other thing in 5e, it's basically a half-baked idea tossed around on forums in 2006. Some of the stuff 5e produced could have been made good with some more development and better math skills, and some of it couldn't. And the people who made 5e can't tell the difference and probably don't even care.

-Username17

FatR · Post by **FatR** » Sat Mar 07, 2015 9:12 am

Insomniac wrote:Is there a good way to end round tracking in the game?

Sure thing. Make durations like this:

"Until the end of the current combat."

"Until the scene change/next short rest/the end of the next combat you enter."

"Adventuring day."

"24/7".

In fact, this should have been done long fucking ago, because that's pretty much how durations are already tracked under sensible GMs who do not specifically seek chances to declare buffs expired in an inapprorpiate moment.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sat Mar 07, 2015 3:35 pm

Eliminating round-by-round tracking for buffs is easy and workable, eliminating round-by-round tracking for debuffs is much harder. If you have debuffs last until the end of the current combat then you either need to accept Rocket Launcher Tag to an extent that well exceeds that of 3E D&D, have all debuffs be piddly shit like 'stunning' giving you a -2 penalty to all rocks, or have some kind of universally stackable Combat Advantage Penalty where if you're healthy and get hit by Medusa's Gaze you're sickened, you're poisoned and get hit by Medusa's Gaze you're sickened and slowed, and if you're poisoned and frightened and then get hit by Medusa's Gaze you're sickened and slowed and petrified.

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Sat Mar 07, 2015 5:23 pm

B/X has good spell durations from 1981. Everything lasts for a small number of turns, and almost everything you can do in the game takes one turn. Almost all debuffs last for the fight and some time afterward, but the penalties are either small or fuck-off huge like paralysis so it's fine. Ghouls are scary, spells work.

5e's advantage is bad because it's +/-5 when you don't really want it that big, and it's nothing when you actually need a big bonus to get shit done. When the PCs inevitably step toward the edges of the RNG, they also can't be affected by circumstances. Except the ones which arbitrarily don't use the system and still just give you a flat +5, like cover. Random.

The level progression is a joke. +4 is nothing. Twenty levels of slog and you improve by less than trivial first level tactics shifted your numbers. It's insulting, and it also means all the big monster ACs are stupidly low and terribly vulnerable to attack-multiplying cheese.

Having saves only shift by +4 (usually +0) likewise means you are permanently vulnerable to even modest numbers of low level things which can force a save. At one point your hit points where going to block that from low level things, but they don't.

--

Wait, wait wait. Things 5e got right.

Using concentration as a duration to block buff stacking. It doesn't work, because you can stack the buffs on one PC and put them in a chokepoint, and it's easy to get off the RNG if you do, then the game is a terrible grind as the monsters can't do anything and your caster's can't help end it because they're busy concentrating and all the good attacks use that too. :sigh:

--

OK, things they got right for real. Stuff I'd totally steal.

I'm struggling. The new spellcasting prep thing is pretty damn fiddly for all it does, trying to be so many things all at once, all the problems of a Sorcerer and all the problems of a Wizard at the same time.

Backgrounds more fit 3e where you want the first-class-level power stack to be limited to first-character-level only, can make them big and go to town producing variants and custom jobs per game (+2 to saves, proficiencies, HP boost, skill boost, class skills, and even bonus feats, spell slots, barbarian speed, starting gear, all sorts). I guess they work in 5e too.

Like Frank said, it's a bunch of work to make 6 saves come alive, and they didn't really do it. I like Charisma -> Courage, and Intelligence -> Lore, but that needs to use courage saves in social scenes and lore saves to investigate things and break illusions, and to offload a bunch of combat and exploration stuff onto Strength saves before you can even start to make up the gap. Then you don't even really want six defences, not really. Having an AC and a Saving Throw and no more probably works better.

I suppose the good thing is I can just buy a big bunch of Mastiffs, there's no skill check to make them attack (because you don't make checks for normal stuff even in combat), so they kill all the monsters immediately on command, and then we keep doing that until the Necromancer gets skellingtons and does it for us. It's sort of autopilot once you find stuff like that, not hardly any point in the PCs even being there.

K · Post by K » Sat Mar 07, 2015 6:11 pm

Attributes as defense could work, but only in a game where the consequences of buffing or fienting are as devastating as stabbing someone, but different enough from stabbing to make it a valuable tactical choice.

In short, that game would look nothing like DnD.

FatR · Post by **FatR** » Sat Mar 07, 2015 7:27 pm

Lago PARANOIA wrote:If you have debuffs last until the end of the current combat then you either need to accept Rocket Launcher Tag to an extent that well exceeds that of 3E D&D, have all debuffs be piddly shit like 'stunning' giving you a -2 penalty to all rocks, or have some kind of universally stackable Combat Advantage Penalty.

Or you can make recovering from debuffs much easier. In 3.X as it stands removing debuffs pre-Heal only happens if the party specifically prepares to fight something like ghouls, because first you have to have a cleric, then the cleric needs to devote slots to highly situational spells, and then he needs to be in the proper position in combat, and then putting yourself an action behind to remove a debuff is generally only worthwhile if your party mate is completely removed from combat and you don't expect the combat to end the next round.

If there is an universal anti-debuff that can be thrown at range, has a higher-level version that covers the entire party and is present on multiple spell list, or there are widely available powers like Iron Heart Surge (except better written), you can have a game where the mildest debuff cuts your damage output about in half, like in Persona. The system of counters that already de-facto existed in late 3.X, where starting at mid levels the first SoL in the round usually got blocked by Wings of Cover or something, also can be used to mitigate the rocket tag.

JonSetanta · Post by **JonSetanta** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 1:25 am

K wrote:Attributes as defense could work, but only in a game where the consequences of buffing or fienting are as devastating as stabbing someone, but different enough from stabbing to make it a valuable tactical choice.

In short, that game would look nothing like DnD.

You seem to describe something like a social (or similar) minigame.

It could work.

But did you mean buffing, or bluffing with a typo?