Wrath & Glory

[RelentlessImp]

Got ahold of the PDF from the Usual Sources(TM) and took a good long look at it.

The Good: The Tier system is a decent way of going about things. Lower tier characters can ascend to higher tiers through discrete Ascension Packages at the cost of some Corruption or a "memorable wound". Different Tiers have different build points, starting at 100 for Tier 1, and increasing by 100 for each Tier. The costs seem fairly granular for what you want them to be granular for (Attributes, Skills) and multiples of 5 and 10 for everything else.

The mechanics are halfway decent, stepping away from d100 roll-under to a d6 dice pool system with fixed target numbers (4, 5 and 6 are successes, with 4 and 5 being "Icons" and 6s being "Exalted Icons"), and you can use 6s ("Exalted Icons", which equal 2 regular "Icons") to enhance effects (in the case of damage, adding entire dice equal to the number of 6s you shift to damage).

Lots of Quick-Start options to spend your discrete points on for Attributes and Skills. T1's Quick Start gets "Five attributes at 3, two attributes at 2" at 58 points and one skill at Rating 4, three skills at Rating 3, and one skill at Rating 2 for 31 points, using up 89 of your 100 build points, which leaves 11 for customization - which isn't entirely bad at T1, if you just wanna slap some numbers down for a first-timer without doing all the math.

This game takes a lot from Black Crusade and Only War, in that your "Specialization" or, as this game calls them, Archetype, only really matters for your starting abilities, with minimal prerequisites - after that, you spend your Build Points however the fuck you want, letting you build whatever you like, but without Only War's limitation schtick of Aptitudes or Black Crusade's limitation schtick of Alignment.

24-hour Power Armour is gone. We're back to Power Armour being fucking Power Armour. No word on whether they provide stuff like Osmotic Lifegills or Magnetic Soles, only vox-units, preysense lenses and respirators. Presumably Power Armour customization will be in a later book.

The Bad:
Matching lower-tier characters to higher-tier character produces the exactly same result as mixing and matching character lines in FFG 40k RPGs. The lower-tier character will have spent far, far more in skills and abilities than the newly-created higher-tier character.

The game suffers from Quantum Bears, and uses the same terminology as *World games, "Failing Forward". However, it ALSO includes an "Optional Rule" to throw Failing Forward out the fucking window, which I highly suggest you do.

Keywords make me nervous after experience with Mutants & Masterminds, but for the time being seem primarily a way to connect effects to certain characters (the Ministorum Priest's special ability only affects characters with the [Imperial] keyword, for example).

The system continues to explain that Skill Rating means something while missing out on the fact that it's a fucking dice pool system so attributes are just as goddamned important.

On Tier 2, the Rogue Trader stands out far and above the rest of the Tier 2 selections, as they start with an Imperial Frigate and the ratings to crew it. They could literally overwhelm any "group activity" with laspistol-wielding navy ratings and then just jet to the nearest Imperial World to pressgang replacements for their losses. Or, said frigate includes a macrocannon and laser battery, so they could just orbital bombard the problem til it goes away. The simple solution is "Don't let players play Rogue Traders if you're not playing a Rogue Trader-centric game", of course, but it just stood out to me as ludicrously overwhelmingly powerful compared to the other T2s (which include Sisters of Battle, Death Cult Assassins, Sanctioned and Rogue Psykers, and similar).

Not sure Pro or Con:
There are discrete Special Points, for both players and GMs. Players get Wrath, which you get 2 of at the start of every session (and lose if you don't use), as well as Glory, which starts at 0 but can be refilled by shifting 6s into the Glory Pool. Wrath Points function like FFG's Fate Points. Glory Points function like Black Crusade's Fate Points at higher Infamy. Basically. There's some differences, but not enough to go over in a high-level overview.

GMs get Ruin points, which basically let them do the same thing with their NPCs as the Players get to do with their Glory points. Special NPCs (big bad antagonists) also get an equivalent to the players' Wrath points.

The default initiative is Round Robin. Players pick one of their side to go first, GM picks one of their side, players pick, repeat. It includes optional rules for just rolling initiative, but it keeps you from using stuff like Seize the Initiative (interrupt GM's turn for one of your side), but also keeps the GM from using their Ruin to take your turns, too.

Overall impression: Worth a play. Ulisses Spiele have obviously put a LITTLE thought into this, more than the typical licensed RPG (not saying much). There are definite issues, Quantum Bears and all, but I think it's worth a try. Not sure it's worth the $60 price tag on a core book, especially since there's only 4 Tiers (and only 2 character types on Tier 4 - Inquisitors and Primaris Space Marines) with a lot of references to Tier 5, so the game isn't actually complete yet since they keep teasing Tier 5 with NOTHING IN IT, but lordy do all the chargen tables have Tier 5 options.

Still, it feels sufficiently crunchy enough to please people like me, and sufficiently fluffy enough to also please people like me. I'm sure I'll find more issues in play, but these were my initial thoughts.

[RelentlessImp]

Okay, so after some sleep after a closing shift, I've taken a bit closer look at the system. This game is... well, there's the possibility of a cavalcade of fuckups to occur.

This is because of the Wrath dice. Basically every test you ever make includes at least one of the die of your pool being the Wrath die - suggestions to make it a different color or larger. Rolling 1s on a Wrath die gets you a complication. Rolling 6s get you a point of Glory.

This is for every test. Attack, attribute, corruption, fear, and skill tests all. And these things occur despite the success/failure state of the test. This is... disappointing. This is also where some Quantum Bears come in - the complication examples are a Perception test spotting the Orks waiting in ambush, but suddenly they have cover because of your complication. Or picking the lock on a door, but suddenly there's a cyber-mastiff on the other side.

There IS a way to avoid this shit - basically just tell the GM "Fuck it, you get a Ruin point due to the complication because they're *World bullshit".

Edit to ADd: There is an exception to this. Psychic Powers. They all use one Wrath dice and rolling a complication prompts a roll on psychic phenomena (Perils of the Warp). When you go Unbound, you use 2 Wrath dice, and can't use Psychic Powers at less than 2 Wrath Dice for the rest of the "scene". Going Transcendent lets you use as many Wrath Dice as the game's Tier or their current Rank, whichever is greater.

Ulisses Spiele took too much inspiration from *World. Sigh. But at least there's a way to just ignore it. That's one thing I do like about this book - they include terrible rules but tell you "Fuck 'em, throw 'em away if you want" with optional rules for everything *World-inspired. Which makes this a better *World hack than any other.

Also, I'm unable to comment on the state of the Campaign Cards because I don't have them. They look like an interesting mechanic, because all the ones I have seen on Ulisses Spiele's site are positive - but there's also separate decks for fucking up Psychic powers and the like. Until I get my hands on a deck, no comments except this:

The Campaign Cards seem to be a complete afterthought. Most of the rules text is written as in all you need are a character sheet, dice, and the book. Then the Campaign Card stuff gets thrown in like an afterthought, completely disconnected from the rest of the text except for saying "You can use a Campaign Card here" or "Campaign Cards exist if you want to use them".

[RelentlessImp]

A note on Tiers: Tier 2 seems to be where most people will start at, as it has the greatest conceptual space, including Psykers, Eldar, and Orks (but not Eldar or Ork Psykers; Eldar Warlocks are T3 and Ork Weirdboyz aren't in this book).

There are no Tau, no Kroot, no Newcrons, and no Dark Eldar, which are ostensibly things people might like to play. Leaving that stuff out just seems like an excuse to sell future books rather than good-faith publishing.

[Username17]

When they first started ruminating on their proposed system, my reaction was certainly that they were proposing an absolutely fucking ridiculous number of possible outputs from any test. The idea of making there be a real and definitive difference between:

• 1 Success + Glory
• 2 Successes
• 3 Successes + Wrath

On every single fucking test is basically absurd, right? The difference between succeeding plus good result, succeeding better, and succeeding better than that but with a drawback is extremely opaque even when you think about it fairly hard. And asking the MC the come up with results on the fly means that the chances of those results being remotely consistent is basically nil.

And the dicepool system plus Dragon Wrath Die system outputs way more possible results than that. A four die pool has fifteen nominally distinct outputs that the MC is supposed to extemporize different results from. The idea that most tasks even have that kind of granularity potential is too ridiculous to seriously consider. I mean sure, you could maybe imagine doing something like that for attacks, by having the result influence your damage output, but for stealth? Climbing? Oratory? Astronomical navigation?

The game asks the MC to come up with descriptions for the effects of die rolls that have more possible outputs than they could plausibly prepare themselves for on every single die roll. Which means that you're getting quantum bears. There are too many variations on success for the MC to be remotely prepared to differentiate between them and thus the actual result of your actions will not and can not be fairly and consistently associated with the die roll results you get.

-Username17

[RelentlessImp]

Right. Which is why I like the idea that you can just say "Fuck it" to half the rules (the Complication half) and that the idea is supported right there under the description of Complications.

[Koumei]

Yeah, for a lot of rolls the only way you can really add differentiation with the special dice is either adjusting the amount of meta-currency of some kind and saying it represents the random flux of "stuff" in the universe (and thus is not really related to the action), or to retroactively change the world with Quantum Bears (and that's only related to the action in that trying the action caused a thing to spring into existence).

That they give you the option to ignore half the shitty rules is certainly funny, but it really feels like they could have taken that extra step of self-awareness and just not put the bad rules in.

[RelentlessImp]

It would have been nice, but this is the world spoiled on rules-light, narrative-driven games and people not having enough critical thinking skills to give *World enough of a shakedown before saying 'Hey that sounds neat let's do something like that'. With 11 designers (10 and a "lead designer"), I feel half of them were trying to curtail bad decisions from the other half after giving this book a lookthrough.

[Username17]

The underlying issue is that the format of the game is:

• You declare your action.
• You roll a pile of dice.
• The MC interprets your die results and tells you what happens.

The crucial issue is part three. Wrath and Glory is predicated on a die rolling mechanic that has far too possible die results to give meaningful direction as to what they might mean. And because the game can't define its range of outputs, obviously it doesn't. Which means that the actual core game mechanic is:

• Player declares action.
  
• MC declares result.

It's not really different from Cops and Robbers.

-Username17

[RobbyPants]

Which means that the actual core game mechanic is:

• Player declares action.
  
• MC declares result.

You forget step 4:

One player realizes they got the exact same roll but a different result.

[PrometheanVigil]

How does this game compare to Only War system-wise (because OW has tightest rules of all the FFG WH40K RPGs)?

[RelentlessImp]

How does this game compare to Only War system-wise (because OW has tightest rules of all the FFG WH40K RPGs)?

Well, I can comment on one part that makes me happier than Only War - Force Weapons aren't useless. They add extra Damage Dice equal to 1/2 the Psyker's Willpower attribute. (OW nerfed Force Weapons into nigh-uselessness with needing a half-action to activate the Force quality, compared to it being 'free' with every successful attack.) Also Sanctioned Psykers get to start with a Force Rod. (Rogue Psykers get a psy-focus instead.)

Overall, though, I'd say it's a weaker system due to concerns brought up by Frank. FFG's games had success pretty clearly defined and expanded upon with Degrees of Success. The Wrath die and it's 1-in-6 chance of fucking you over doesn't need to be there, especially since it's most prevalently used in combat (there's a lot of rolls here). The Combat Complications are roll 2d6, and have results of:

11-26: Out of Ammo (lose one reload - you get 3 Reloads per scene)
31-33: Weapon Jam (Tech Test with a DN of 2 to repair)
34-36: Dropped Weapon (Spend action to recover)
41-43: Weapon Malfunction (Tech Test DN4)
44-46: Weapon Stuck (Strength Test DN3)
51-53: Dropped Item (Random important thing gets dropped)
54-56: Falling Prone (Attacker is prone)
61-62: Restrained (Strength Test DN4)
63-64: Blinded (Blinded for 1 round)
65-66: Inconvenient Target (Randomly blow up a gas tank and hose the battlefield in burning promethium, or something similar)

And if those look like Basic D&D Critical Fumble charts, you're right, they are, only missing attacking yourself, though Inconvenient Target could certainly COUNT as blowing everything the fuck up including yourself.

Again: There's a 1-in-6 chance of this happening on EVERY roll. Attack, attribute, corruption, fear, and skill tests. And there's different complications for narrative scenes and combat, and even though the narrative scenes says "It is never the intention to punish players for bad luck; instead, it is an opportunity to add unexpected drama to the scene that involves the character's story in some way" the fucking Combat Complication table puts that to the fucking lie that it is. The narrative complications are Quantum Bears, and the combat complications resurrect a mechanic best left in the goddamned 80s where it died.

OR you can draw from the Combat Complications deck. Which I haven't seen. Yet. But if it's like the fucking table then it's best left fucked off.

ETA: Okay, I've gotten a look at the Campaign Deck (thank you, Usual Sources(TM)), and... that's it? Really? The majority of them are fucking Complications in and of themselves while also letting you do something. Example: I Am Alpharius, when played, reveals someone to be not who they appear to be, while granting 1 Glory to the players.

Unleash the Swordwind summons reinforcements for the enemies, including "at least one Elite or Adversary Threat", and the players get 1-3 Wrath for killing them.

There Is Only War absolutely destroys all diplomatic attempts, while increasing the difficulty of all social skills except Intimidate by 2. The players get 1 Wrath.

Martyrdom kills you but completes a "significant goal". All players get 1 Wrath. Or you get to discard it and gain 1 Wrath for yourself, because again, dead characters mean the players can't roleplay.

There's a lot of unambiguously "good" cards, like getting free reloads or immediately unjamming or reloading a weapon, or healing Shock for yourself and allies, but... really? This shit is gimmicky in the goddamned extreme.

Still waiting on the rest of the Decks, like Complication and Perils of the Warp.

ETA#2: So they've apparently put out a supplement already detailing Ogryn and Ratlings. This is good, because I've always wanted to play a Ratling Psyker. This is also bad, because one of these wins at everything, and the other sucks dirt. Ogryn get +2 Toughness, +2 Strength, -1 Fellowship, -1 Intellect, take +1 DN to interactions with characters with the [Imperium] keyword, and gain +2 dice to all Intimidation tests.

Ratlings, on the other hand, for the same cost, get +1 Agility, -1 Strength, the same DN penalty for [Imperium] characters... and +2 dice to all Ballistic Skill tests. Also, Ogryn are Large, meaning attacking them gets you an extra die, and you get an extra die trying to detect them when they Stealth, while Ratlings are small, and increase difficulty to hit them by 1, and increase the difficulty of beating their Stealth checks by 1.

[RelentlessImp]

So now I'm looking at the presale deck and... these cards are miles and away better than the other Campaign Cards. Like, seriously. Wrath of Mars causes (Tier) number of enemies to take a Combat Complication and gives all players 1 Glory. Wisdom of the Ordos interrupts the GM's Seize the Initiative via Ruin and lets all the players go first while draining one of the GM's Ruin points.

So, with the Presale Deck, is Ulisses Spiele trying to turn a tabletop roleplaying game into a cash cow à la Magic: the Gathering? Because I can see them pumping out shitloads of Cards for this, because Decks are a trivial thing to expand upon. And they can even make it competitive because competitive tabletop is apparently making a comeback.