Vaccine Hysteria

[Lago PARANOIA]

Why aren't certain people in the media in jail for promoting this shit?

It's one thing to force your garden-variety lies into people but this is vaccination. Today probably significantly more people don't have their children vaccinated than not due to these slimeballs.

[Username17]

I genuinely don't know. That guy who faked the MMR-Autism link research is literally responsible for several deaths, and he has fled the United Kingdom. He now lives in the United States, where nothing bad will happen to him.

I don't think that anyone seriously claims that Freedom of Speech entitles people to yell "Fire" in a crowded theater, and yet for some reason making up scare stories about vaccines (which is basically the same deal on a national scale) gets a free ride.

-Username17

[mean_liar]

No longterm study on the effects of vaccines' effects have ever been performed, though there are studies that link unvaccinated communities to lower incidences of autoimmune disorders such as asthma. Additionally, all vaccines carry risks of demyelinating neurological damage, which is the sort of thing that usually demands more research.

There are also issues (greater than the H1N1 vaccine, as that's a more targeted anti-pandemic effort than a long-term community immunity project) with other vaccines. As an American, there is no reason why I need a diptheria vaccine.

[ubernoob]

Isn't the link between vaccines and "bad medical problems" just that people that don't get vaccinated in the control pool are more likely to simply die if they aren't perfectly healthy and thus no longer appear in the control pool?

[Username17]

Mean Liar, you just hurt my brain. That's complete garbage. The longterm effects of vaccination have been continuously studied for over a hundred years. That's how we know that you need booster shots.

And yes, people who get vaccinated get more auto-immune diseases. You know why? Because they get sick less. Yes, there is a small but statistically significant decrease in auto-immunity from actually using your immune system on a regular basis. There is less asthma in populations who are colonized by parasitic worms.

Anyone who wants to get parasitic worms and die of smallpox in order to have a slightly lower risk of auto-immunity can get the fuck off the island.

Mean Liar, I am seeing a distinct pattern in your statements about medicine.

-Username17

[Blicero]

Vaccines are an essential part of modern medical life, but a lot of people I think may be remembering that when swine flu broke out in 1976, 1 person died as a result of the actual flu, but 25 died from vaccine complications. (This was the first website I found via google that referenced it, but I'm sure there's others: http://thenewsjunkie.com/2009/04/flashb ... -the-1970s) I'm not saying that the new vaccine is not probably a lot safer, but you should keep that in mind.

[Username17]

Blicero, that's bullshit too. Influenza kills 36,000 people a year in the United States. That's 9/11, every single month. When they estimate the deaths from Swine Flu that's the number of additional deaths over the tens of thousands of people we expected to lose.

Honestly, 25 vaccine death complications are so amazingly chump change that it is insulting to bring it up. It's like telling people that if they run out of a burning building they might get hit by a car. While technically true, it's the kind of linguistic shell game that serves no purpose but to potentially trick people into putting themselves in increased danger.

-Username17

[shadzar]

Why aren't certain people in the media in jail for promoting this shit?

1st Amendment. They tried boycotting Fox News, and that didn't work because real news stations got behind Fox, because Fox makes watching stuff masquerading as news on TV profitable over getting news online.

[Lago PARANOIA]

http://www.news24.com/Content/Africa/Fe ... eads_polio

Immunising toddlers with mouth drops has reduced the number of polio cases from 350 000 children annually in the 1980s to fewer than 800 worldwide last year. Yet the virus is spreading again from Nigeria, where UN officials say a third of the world's cases are the result of a vaccine boycott.

I guess in a way this shit has been in a long time coming. Ignorance and bigotry have been pounding away at science since God-knows when--guess medicine is just the latest battlefield.

[Blicero]

I'm not saying that anti-vaccination spiels are not total bullshit (because, really, they are), I'm just trying to come up with possible reasons for the hysteratia that are possibly based on honest confusion instead of outright fear-mongering.

And, if we really want to go into "Statistics Mode," the one whole person that died in '76 from the flu and the 25 that died from the vaccines really are nothing compared to how many people die on a yearly or daily basis from much more mundane causes.

[PhoneLobster]

I'm just trying to come up with possible reasons for the hysteratia that are possibly based on honest confusion instead of outright fear-mongering.

We already know that one though.

It's because Autism in young children is often first noticed sometime around or after vaccination.

That isn't to say there is any link, in fact there ISN'T any link. But it the "confusion" angle is "OMG autism, hey didn't my kid get vaccinated a while ago, IT MUST BE THAT!!!!!!!11!!!".

It's straight up paranoid false pattern matching. When the figures and the science is actually checked there is no link, but to the individual experiencing it because it happened around the same time there appears to be a link.

Of course THEN you get a bunch of total fuckers who refuse to listen to reason and science and go around telling all these confused paranoids (and everyone else) that there really is a link because they just know it "as a mother" or something.

[Cynic]

So how safe is the h1n1 vaccine?

Someone was telling me that the flu wasn't a great illness and this was only said the other day. I had to smack them down with the spanish flu, well not literally but still. I mean that thing is mean.

Also smallpox vaccines were still given as much as 30 years ago. my sis got one and my mother opted out of giving me one about 24 years ago as I had more immediate medical concerns at the time. THis was in India, of course.

[RobbyPants]

Vaccines are an essential part of modern medical life, but a lot of people I think may be remembering that when swine flu broke out in 1976, 1 person died as a result of the actual flu, but 25 died from vaccine complications. (This was the first website I found via google that referenced it, but I'm sure there's others: http://thenewsjunkie.com/2009/04/flashb ... -the-1970s) I'm not saying that the new vaccine is not probably a lot safer, but you should keep that in mind.

That swine flu from 76 is not the same flu as H1N1. Sadly, H1N1 was misnamed, and a lot of people get the wrong idea about it.

[Josh_Kablack]

We already know that one though.

It's because Autism in young children is often first noticed sometime around or after vaccination.

That isn't to say there is any link, in fact there ISN'T any link. But it the "confusion" angle is "OMG autism, hey didn't my kid get vaccinated a while ago, IT MUST BE THAT!!!!!!!11!!!".

It's straight up paranoid false pattern matching. When the figures and the science is actually checked there is no link, but to the individual experiencing it because it happened around the same time there appears to be a link.

Kinda like this

[shadzar]

So how safe is the h1n1 vaccine?

When compared to other vaccine's H1N1 does not contain th virus itself to make the body create anti-bodies to fight it, so has no chance in one form to cantract the virus.

Think if it like your body has antibodies to fight against perfect spheres. The H1N1 virus is a perfect sphere in shape. The vaccine puts these hollow empty spheres in your body so your body starts making things to fight them off. The vaccine cannot replicate.

So when the real virus comes along you have antibodies, but nothing already there with genetic material that could have adapted to spread and replicate to help mutate the virus itself, so the immune system fights the real virus spheres as it has been doing the vaccine.

Of course I don't recall which version this is, but one of them is the old form you get a little bit of the virus itself to prevent from getting it big time, and the other you get empty "pods" that make your body think it is the virus.

Which is a long way of just saying one form of the vaccine doesn't contain the genetic material for the virus so cannot infect you.

HOWEVER, the delivery system could have side effects just like any drug to have the vaccine suspended in it that could has effects on your body that are unwanted. So what gets the vaccine into you without it being broken down, is a threat to some as with any allergic reaction that is possible for anyone that introduces a foreign substance into their body. Tobacco, pot, crack, alcohol, etc as example of foreign substances.

[mean_liar]

The longterm effects of vaccination have been continuously studied for over a hundred years. That's how we know that you need booster shots.

First, those longitudinal studies I'm referring to haven't been done. There has been no comparative study between vaccinated and non-vaccinated populations in the developed world over any significant length of time to track relative incidences of autoimmune disorders, or even something as simple as mortality, especially as it relates to disease.

FDA requirements for pre-market testing only require a two-step process: a few weeks of watching for side effects and then "post-market surveillance", when the population at large is monitored. Unfortunately this sort of monitoring only catches significant and immediate complications (the live-virus polio vaccine that was causing paralysis, for instance). More subtle deleterious effects remain unexamined.

So, for example, how does an adjuvant work? Which ones carry more risks than the others? What are the risks of the preservatives used (other than thimerisol)? How about the effect of multiple doses of aluminum on the nervous system?

Anyone who wants to get parasitic worms and die of smallpox in order to have a slightly lower risk of auto-immunity can get the fuck off the island.

Parasitic worms are the low-hanging fruit. I'm not talking about vaccines in the middle of an epidemic or in undeveloped areas of the world where the water kills you or whatever - I'm talking about vaccines in the developed world.

So what about, say, diptheria in America? Or mumps? Or rubella (in boys)? These diseases are eradicated and/or functionally non-lethal yet their vaccines still carry risks and they're given to children in a rapid-fire schedule.

Do we get to kick off the rising numbers of people with autoimmune disorders?

Blicero, that's bullshit too. Influenza kills 36,000 people a year in the United States. That's 9/11, every single month. When they estimate the deaths from Swine Flu that's the number of additional deaths over the tens of thousands of people we expected to lose.

"If I beat the shit out of you, would there be anything left?"

First off, that 36k figure is not a representation of flu deaths, but deaths in which flu occurred: "Seasonal flu-related deaths are deaths that occur in people for whom seasonal influenza infection was likely a contributor to the cause of death, but not necessarily the primary cause of death."

You might as well say that 446k people die of cheese-related deaths in the US a year because hey, heart attacks are caused by cholesterol.

Mean Liar, I am seeing a distinct pattern in your statements about medicine.

The converse is also noted. Do you ever question dominant orthodoxies outside of the social sciences?

[Lago PARANOIA]

The converse is also noted. Do you ever question dominant orthodoxies outside of the social sciences?

Unless you take this statement back immediately, you have just convinced me to never listen to anything you ever have to say about biological science ever again.

Seriously, listening to the opinions on medicine from someone railing about Big Science would be like listening to the economic opinions of someone who thought the gold standard kicked ass or physics observations from someone who thinks that astrology is nifty-keen.

[Lago PARANOIA]

So what about, say, diptheria in America? Or mumps? Or rubella (in boys)? These diseases are eradicated and/or functionally non-lethal yet their vaccines still carry risks and they're given to children in a rapid-fire schedule.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mo ... _outbreaks

Diptheria:

Diphtheria is a serious disease, with fatality rates between 5% and 10%. In children under 5 years and adults over 40 years, the fatality rate may be as much as 20%.[3] Outbreaks, though very rare, still occur worldwide, even in developed nations such as Germany and Canada. After the breakup of the former Soviet Union in the late 1980s, vaccination rates in its constituent countries fell so low that there was an explosion of diphtheria cases. In 1991 there were 2,000 cases of diphtheria in the USSR. By 1998, according to Red Cross estimates, there were as many as 200,000 cases in the Commonwealth of Independent States, with 5,000 deaths. This was so great an increase that diphtheria was cited in the Guinness Book of World Records as "most resurgent disease".

Secondly, the MMR vaccine is a combination of several immunizations at the same time: most notably measles, mumps, and rubella. So what, you want them to just take out rubella for the fuck of it? Why in the ass would we do that?

In conclusion, shut your mouth.

[Maj]

That isn't to say there is any link, in fact there ISN'T any link.

Annals of Epidemiology
Vol. 19, No. 9 ABSTRACTS (ACE)
September 2009: 651-680
p. 659

P24 HEPATITIS B VACCINATION OF MALE NEONATES AND AUTISM
CM Gallagher, MS Goodman, Graduate Program in Public Health, Stony Brook University Medical Center, Stony Brook, NY

PURPOSE: Universal newborn immunization with hepatitis B vaccine was recommended in 1991; however, safety findings are mixed. The Vaccine Safety Datalink Workgroup reported no association between hepatitis B vaccination at birth and febrile episodes or neurological adverse events. Other studies found positive associations between hepatitis B vaccination and ear infection, pharyngitis, and chronic arthritis; as well as receipt of early intervention/special education services (EIS); in probability samples of U.S. children. Children with autistic spectrum disorder (ASD) comprise a growing caseload for EIS. We evaluated the association between hepatitis B vaccination of male neonates and parental report of ASD.

METHODS: This cross-sectional study used U.S. probability samples obtained from National Health Interview Survey 1997-2002 datasets. Logistic regression modeling was used to estimate the effect of neonatal hepatitis B vaccination on ASDrisk amongboys age 3-17 years with shot records, adjusted for race, maternal education, and two-parent household.

RESULTS: Boys who received the hepatitis B vaccine during the first month of life had 2.94 greater odds for ASD (nZ31 of 7,486; OR Z 2.94; p Z 0.03; 95% CI Z 1.10, 7.90) compared to later- or unvaccinated boys. Non-Hispanic white boys were 61% less likely to have ASD (ORZ0.39; Z0.04; 95% CIZ0.16, 0.94) relative to non-white boys.

CONCLUSION: Findings suggest that U.S. male neonates vaccinated with hepatitis B vaccine had a 3-fold greater risk of ASD; risk was greatest for non-white boys.

[PhoneLobster]

Maj. I call bullshit.

[Heath Robinson]

So, for example, how does an adjuvant work? Which ones carry more risks than the others? What are the risks of the preservatives used (other than thimerisol)? How about the effect of multiple doses of aluminum on the nervous system?

"The dose makes the poison."
You have a liver, don't be afraid to use it!

[cthulhu]

The longterm effects of vaccination have been continuously studied for over a hundred years. That's how we know that you need booster shots.

First, those longitudinal studies I'm referring to haven't been done. There has been no comparative study between vaccinated and non-vaccinated populations in the developed world over any significant length of time to track relative incidences of autoimmune disorders, or even something as simple as mortality, especially as it relates to disease.

There has been a longitudinal study over almost 10 years done in denmark with a sample size of half a million.

[Username17]

Mean Liar: Diphtheria kills fools. 5-10% of people infected. Lack of inoculation has killed thousands of people in Ukraine. People in the United States are still exposed to Diphtheria. They don't catch it or die from it because they have been inoculated. Again and still, rather than going to some crank case or another, I am going to go with the CDC on this one.

Circulation appears to continue in some settings even in populations with >80% childhood immunization rates. An asymptomatic carrier state exists even among immune individuals.

Do you know what that means? That means that Diphtheria is still all around you right fucking now. Again and still, your shocking desire to get to the bottom of the evils of "big science" is causing you to advocate for a position that would kill thousands or millions for no perceivable gain.

---

Maj, that's what we like to call "selection bias." People who get more doctor visits get more vaccines and also get diagnosed with more autism. That doesn't make the rate of autism higher in the people who get diagnosed, that makes the rate of diagnosis higher.

As cthulhu alluded to, we've done the big studies on these hypothesized connections and they have not panned out. We can say with a very high confidence that there is no reason to believe that there is a link between Autism and Vaccines.

-Username17

[mean_liar]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mo ... _outbreaks

Check fatalities. The most recent US outbreak was 15 deaths last year. Not only that, but mumps is most lethal in adults, not children. Had those 15 adults gotten mumps as a child, they'd be naturally immune and still alive.

I was under the impression that 15 deaths constituted "chump change" for epidemiological magnitudes, and it does.

Diphtheria is a serious disease, with fatality rates between 5% and 10%.

With... >49 cases in the US last year.

Out of 300+ million people.

Adverse reactions occur in 12-24 out of every 100,000 and you need 4 shots of it. Hooray.

http://tiny.cc/9Forb

Not only that, but the vaccines aren't guaranteed to even do anything, as noted in the outbreaks in Canada and Germany, and even in places that have desperate problems with diphtheria outbreaks:

http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/conte ... type=HWCIT

The converse is also noted. Do you ever question dominant orthodoxies outside of the social sciences?

Unless you take this statement back immediately, you have just convinced me to never listen to anything you ever have to say about biological science ever again.

Seriously, listening to the opinions on medicine from someone railing about Big Science would be like listening to the economic opinions of someone who thought the gold standard kicked ass or physics observations from someone who thinks that astrology is nifty-keen.

I suggest you actually argue the merits and discuss the links I'm posting. Vaccination as a concept is worth pursuing in the face of fatal outbreaks and their risks are also acceptable for dealing with extant, domestically-active fatal or crippling diseases. Outside of those arenas, what then?

I actually don't think that autism is directly linked to any single vaccine - that's been explored thoroughly. There are other questions and risks that haven't been explored and simply saying "THAT'S JUST BULLSHIT" when the data and MODELS are inadequate is trusting science without consideration.

So fuck your handwaving dismissal. If you think this is shit then come up with something that's substantial rather than ad hominem.

[shadzar]

Many people including doctors do say now that some of the "cures" for some things are more damaging that the illness itself due to all the side effects.

Take this for condition X that creates condition Y, and take these two for condition Y, and then take this for the high blood pressure those last 2 give you.

For some the medicine can be worse that the disease.

Look at what people can never make up their minds about aspirin, ibuprofen, and acetaminophen.