Realistic Magic in RPG's

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Post by Username17 »

RandomCasualty2 wrote:
Ice9 wrote:Hence the precision requirement - targetting a specific organ is more difficult, and aiming at it is like trying to stab someone in the neck.
Yeah, you'd probably always want to say magic requires some kind of aim. Placing a spell on an area you can't see (like an internal organ) is going to be rather difficult.
That doesn't even matter though. The actual force or accuracy on a .22 isn't that good, but it will still fucking kill you. You can murder someone with just your thumbs, the only thing that makes that slightly difficult is the fact that they are attached to those vulnerable and highly visible arms.

If you can:
  • Telekinetically lift a book, open a door or do anything else you could do with one hand.
  • Raise or lower temperatures to any significant degree. Like not even necessarily boiling or freezing water, just changing temperatures to the point where you notice.
  • Effect any physiological change on someone at all.
  • Transform anything into anything else.
  • Teleport anything of any size over any distance.
Then you have a fucking gun. Any of those things could instantly kill someone on accident, meaning that doing it deliberately is incredibly incredibly simple.

If you want to use the effects of your sorcery in a "logical" manner, you pretty much have to accept that people in your world are extremely fragile. Because in the real world, people are incredibly fragile. We spend years and years learning how to keep them alive, and teaching people how to kill is something that people do over a weekend.

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Post by Ice9 »

Then you have a fucking gun. Any of those things could instantly kill someone on accident, meaning that doing it deliberately is incredibly incredibly simple.
Well sure - why would that be problem though? I mean, you can buy a gun in store - I would expect magic to be at least that strong.

Incidentally, raising body temperature is probably one of the handier ways to kill someone if we're using the precision/power principles - low precision, low power. Of course you are effecting an organism directly, so you have whatever difficulty factor that adds, but it's certainly easier than ripping out internal organs, and less collateral damage than poison gas or setting the air on fire.
Last edited by Ice9 on Fri Oct 02, 2009 6:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by RandomCasualty2 »

All this stuff basically can be controlled by sound limitations.
FrankTrollman wrote:
  • Telekinetically lift a book, open a door or do anything else you could do with one hand.
Only if you can affect stuff inside them and accurately. The actual force involved isn't the issue as to how small a surface you can exert pressure. Otherwise you're just like pushing on them and not cutting or affecting them.

About all you could really do is maybe choke someone with sustained force to the neck. But this requires that you sustain the spell and may be subject to stuff like line of sight, or require aim. For instance, it could just be like a ranged force ray. Lets say you could shoot a beam that did 15 lbs of force to whatever you struck. The beam affected a pretty wide area so you couldn't tune the pressure to really cut anything. To choke someone you'd have to hold it on a moving target, and they could block it with their hand (which would then take the insignificant pressure).

Yet you can use that ray to push stuff. Maybe the ray can even pull too.
[*] Raise or lower temperatures to any significant degree. Like not even necessarily boiling or freezing water, just changing temperatures to the point where you notice.
Again, depends on what volume you can heat up. The body can deal with temperature change. Touch something hot and you get burned, but you don't die instantly. Now it's true if you had the power to raise the body's temperature directly, that'd be powerful, but nobody is necessarily saying you can do that. Just creating hot/cold spots won't do much.

I mean again, you can have an infrared laser, and you can burn people with it, but it's not instantly lethal. In fact, you're probably going to be better off shooting them.
[*] Effect any physiological change on someone at all.
Depends on to what extent and how you're doing it.
[*] Transform anything into anything else.
Yeah, polymorph magic is basically going to be an instant kill, since it becomes like disintegration. But you can still throw some limits on it, like it may not be an instantaneous change, or it may require touch.
[*] Teleport anything of any size over any distance.
Similar to poly you can throw limits on it. Teleportation inside an existing object may just push the existing object out of the way, depending on how teleporting works, or the rematerialization may fail.
[/list]
If you want to use the effects of your sorcery in a "logical" manner, you pretty much have to accept that people in your world are extremely fragile. Because in the real world, people are incredibly fragile. We spend years and years learning how to keep them alive, and teaching people how to kill is something that people do over a weekend.
Humans are actually a bit less fragile than most give them credit for actually. I mean people have been shot right in the head and lived. I know one such person. In war there were plenty of weapons explicitly created for mass murder, yet war produces lots of injured as well as killed.

Now, the main difference is that unlike RPGs you're going to be dealing with possibly permanent wounds. Get hit by a fireball and that shit is going to leave permanent burn scars. But I mean it may well not even be as effective as dousing someone in burning napalm.

But honestly, unless you allow magic to have an insane targetting system that allows it to produce force that bypasses solid objects, like squeezing the aorta or clamping down directly on someone's brain. It's just not going to be nearly as deadly as you seem to think.

In fact, it need not be better or even equal to a gun.
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Post by Korwin »

RandomCasualty2 wrote:All this stuff basically can be controlled by sound limitations.
As long as we dont know how this limitations work (rules wise) I remain unconvinced...
FrankTrollmann wrote:or do anything else you could do with one hand.
RandomCasualty2 wrote:Only if you can affect stuff inside them and accurately
why do you need to affect stuff inside them?
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Post by RandomCasualty2 »

Korwin wrote: why do you need to affect stuff inside them?
Because one hand isn't really going to kill somebody unless you have infinite sustainability that can go through solid objects.

Lets say you had some kind of pressure ray that pushed with the force of one hand and had the area of one hand. You could choke someone, but you wouldn't instantly snap their neck. They put their hand over thier throat and your ray now pushes on their hands, which can exert a counter force to prevent them from getting choked. Alternately they just dodge the ray and catch their breath.

You could shoot them in the balls and stun them likely. But again, they're going to shield themselves in short order. And given that this thing is only useful against sensitive areas, shielding yourself with your hands is going to work well.

The only time this becomes deadly is if you can do one of the following.
  • condense the force into a small point, generating a shitload of pressure on one area.
  • "lock on" and apply pressure to a specific point continuously.
  • Apply force that goes through solid objects. Pushing on their heart for instance.

    Otherwise it's basically just a continuous force ray. Yeah I could choke someone with one hand but I'd need my body weight and other hand to keep them from just getting up and blocking the choke. With just a force ray of one hand, I'm not going to kill anyone.

    Seriously it's just nothing to write home about.
Last edited by RandomCasualty2 on Fri Oct 02, 2009 8:59 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Korwin »

Before I bring an example how I would use it.
What is the range of that handlike telekinetic force?
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Post by Ice9 »

Where'd the "one hand" thing come from anyway? Not that it's necessarily a bad basis.
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Post by Username17 »

RC wrote:Because one hand isn't really going to kill somebody unless you have infinite sustainability that can go through solid objects.
That's totally false. Murdering someone with one hand isn't even difficult, and you can't go through solid objects.
Ice9 wrote:Where'd the "one hand" thing come from anyway? Not that it's necessarily a bad basis.
It was an example by me of an incredibly restrictive thing you could do with "magic" that would nonetheless render you into a murder machine comparable to someone with a modern firearm. Right along side raising and lowering temperatures, transforming things into other things, or teleporting stuff.

Really the only limitation that you can put on magic that would make it less than ideal as a weapon in any "realistic" setting is demanding that the inputs required to make it go made murdering people with it a bad "deal." If it takes sufficient time, energy, or material cost to use the magic that ends a man, then people will just go back to killing each other with sticks for convenience.

Because seriously, mage hand is fucking bullshit as far as "magic" goes, but it's still 5 pounds of force. That'll shatter your skull like an eggshell if you put it in the right place. You don't need to have it materialize inside the skull to frappe the brain or anything, seriously just tap it into one of the joints.

To go back to the earlier analogy about hacking for a moment... if you get a computer to hack into the Pentagon, you can damn well get a computer to turn off. That is seriously the level of difference between doing fucking anything you want to do and murdering people. Such considerations are only acceptable in a game in which the baseline assumption is that people are in fact very easy to kill.

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Post by Ice9 »

I agree that realistic magic is with wide ranging capabilities is not a good match for a "heroic fantasy" setting where people fight all the time and end up with nothing worse than minor wounds they can walk off. Magic in general could work - divination-only magic can be logically consistent - but not magic with D&D-like capabilities, not with any logical applications.

Given that we're talking about "realistic" magic here, I was imagining a setting with more realistic combat - i.e. death happens fast, protagonists survive because they're lucky or skilled, not because they can shrug off a knife to the throat. And because of the scientific explanation angle, I was thinking more of a modern setting, although that's not necessary.

In that context, magic can have a fair amount of capability before it breaks the world ... at least combat wise. I'd be more worried about divinations and enchantment, honestly. For which reason, I'd actually agree that Charm Person should be higher level than Finger of Death, in such a setting.
Last edited by Ice9 on Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by RandomCasualty2 »

FrankTrollman wrote: That's totally false. Murdering someone with one hand isn't even difficult, and you can't go through solid objects.
How do you figure? The majority of fist fights are not lethal. And you're not even talking about the power of a punch here, you're just talking about minor sustained forces, like 5-10 lbs.

I mean fuck, test it. Buy a 5 lb weight and lay it on your body anywhere you want. There's just no way that's going to kill anyone. Remember you can't actually drop the weight, you just can use its force on yourself.

If you have minor forces the only way you can hurt someone is by cutting them, and the only way you can do that is if you're allowed to sufficiently increase the pressure by decreasing the area the force acts upon. If you can't do that... then you're not even looking at something lethal.
Last edited by RandomCasualty2 on Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Archmage »

RandomCasualty2 wrote:I mean fuck, test it. Buy a 5 lb weight and lay it on your body anywhere you want. There's just no way that's going to kill anyone.
Er, I think it's more like dropping a 5 lb weight on someone out of a window. Also, I think you'd have a great deal of trouble breathing with a 5 lb weight on your throat.

The whole "5 pounds of force" example is really arbitrary and only coming up because we're kind of approaching this subject from a D&D-colored direction. Force isn't measured in pounds anyway, it's measured in newtons (or, in English units, foot-pounds). The restriction on mage hand is that it can't lift an object heavier than 5 pounds, which is not the same thing as "5 pounds of force" seeing as how that isn't even the right unit. But that really doesn't matter--none of the sources I can find agree on how much force it takes to break a human neck, but a reference for cyclists says 33 foot-pounds under standard conditions. If the object is being accelerated by gravity (and we have to take acceleration into account or we're not talking about units of force) then a 4-5 pound object is indeed adequate to break a human neck if acceleration is adequate. Not that it matters.

As a move action, mage hand can move an object 15 feet. So you can move an object 30 feet in 6 seconds. Therefore, it has an acceleration of 5 feet/second/second, and throwing an object with mage hand at top speed has a total force of 25 foot-pounds. Depending on who you ask, not enough to "snap" a neck--but if you hit someone laterally, since the neck can't accommodate side-to-side motion nearly as well as front-to-back motion, you can probably cause pretty serious injury. With mage hand and a 5 lb object.

Edit: Oh, I realize that once your mage hand-accelerated object reaches top speed of 5 feet per second, it technically isn't "accelerating" anymore since it's at top speed. Whatever. It's always being accelerated by something in some direction unless somehow you have neutralized all forces acting on the object, and that would involve getting rid of all gravity and putting the object in a perfectly dark vacuum. I'm just worried about the force generated over the first round of the spell, in which you're flinging a 5 lb object at someone relatively close by (the spell's range is short, after all).
Last edited by Archmage on Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:25 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by IGTN »

Pounds is force. Foot-pounds is energy. A weight is just the force exerted by gravity. Newtons are about 1/5 of a pound.
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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

RandomCasualty2 wrote:I mean fuck, test it. Buy a 5 lb weight and lay it on your body anywhere you want. There's just no way that's going to kill anyone. Remember you can't actually drop the weight, you just can use its force on yourself.
Hey RC, here's a thought: balance a 5" needle on your eye and then balance a 4 # weight on that.

[Edit] I don't actually want you to try it, RC. I really mean a hypothetical needle and a hypothetical weight. But your actual eye. [/Edit]
Last edited by CatharzGodfoot on Sat Oct 03, 2009 3:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by TarkisFlux »

CatharzGodfoot wrote:
RandomCasualty2 wrote:I mean fuck, test it. Buy a 5 lb weight and lay it on your body anywhere you want. There's just no way that's going to kill anyone. Remember you can't actually drop the weight, you just can use its force on yourself.
Hey RC, here's a thought: balance a needle on your eye and then balance a 4 # weight on that.
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Post by Archmage »

IGTN wrote:Pounds is force. Foot-pounds is energy. A weight is just the force exerted by gravity. Newtons are about 1/5 of a pound.
Technically, you have to distinguish between pound-mass and pound-force. The description of the mage hand spell doesn't, and in common parlance, people generally mean pound-mass, not pound-force.

IANAP (I am Not a Physicist), but I'm pretty sure my explanation is correct given the context--they're talking about an object's mass, not an object's force exerted under standard gravity.

Edit: This is why everyone ought to switch to SI units.
Last edited by Archmage on Sat Oct 03, 2009 3:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Grek »

I've tried very hard, and I cannot come up with any physical effect, magical or not, that isn't potentially deadly.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Killing a person is a surprisingly difficult task, killing a human is not.
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Post by RandomCasualty2 »

CatharzGodfoot wrote: Hey RC, here's a thought: balance a 5" needle on your eye and then balance a 4 # weight on that.
This is creating vast amounts of pressure by squeezing the force into a really small thing, which was one of the three things I expressly prohibited magic from doing in my prior stipulations.

Yeah, I'm aware if you can pinpoint magic power into a monofilament beam or a needle of death, it becomes super deadly, but who says you can do that?

I'm just saying that applying a 5 lb force can be balanced in a realistic system. But to make such a system it means having some sound limits and not just letting people go crazy nuts. The question is if you could design a realistic system that didn't make magic super deadly. Obviously if you allow monomolecular slashing force planes, you can break it. But there's no stipulation that you have to allow that, or honestly any reason that you'd want to allow that.
Last edited by RandomCasualty2 on Sat Oct 03, 2009 9:12 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Username17 »

RC wrote:I'm just saying that applying a 5 lb force can be balanced in a realistic system. But to make such a system it means having some sound limits and not just letting people go crazy nuts.
Of course it can be balanced in a realistic system. It's just that in a realistic system, humans are chemically and energetically extremely fragile and are made out of meat and calcium phosphate.

Getting all bent out of shape trying to come up with bullshit rules to keep people from freezing people solid (killing them instantly) is a waste of time, since if you're worrying about scientific realism there are a billion other ways to easily kill a human being.

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Post by RandomCasualty2 »

FrankTrollman wrote: Of course it can be balanced in a realistic system. It's just that in a realistic system, humans are chemically and energetically extremely fragile and are made out of meat and calcium phosphate.

Getting all bent out of shape trying to come up with bullshit rules to keep people from freezing people solid (killing them instantly) is a waste of time, since if you're worrying about scientific realism there are a billion other ways to easily kill a human being.
But if you're trying to balance it, then you need to come up with those rules anyway.

I mean even in a realistic game, guns aren't going to be weapons of instant death. There are plenty of people who get shot and survive. I don't really see why you wouldn't want to set it so that people who get hit by spells can survive too.

I don't really see your point how balancing the game is a waste of time. I mean you can easily say the same thing about D&D. Sure, there are hundreds of other ways to kill people in D&D too.

But if you're writing a system, you want to actually try to balance stuff, otherwise there's no point to writing the RPG in the first place if it doens't even work.
Last edited by RandomCasualty2 on Sat Oct 03, 2009 9:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by MartinHarper »

So, say you can magically apply one pound/square inch of pressure, up to a maximum of five pounds, with an accuracy determined by pointing your finger, restricted by line of sight. Sure, you can gouge someone's eye out, but what do you do against someone wearing shades?
RandomCasualty2 wrote:In war there were plenty of weapons explicitly created for mass murder, yet war produces lots of injured as well as killed.
On the other hand, plenty of weapons are explicitly created to cause mass injury. Crippling enemy soldiers is often much better than killing them, because then your enemy has to spend resources moving the crippled soldiers to a field hospital and such, rather than digging a hole in the ground.
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Post by Avoraciopoctules »

Grek wrote:I've tried very hard, and I cannot come up with any physical effect, magical or not, that isn't potentially deadly.
Over the course of 5 minutes of chanting, turn a half-pound nugget of lead inside a carefully drawn rune circle into gold.

EDIT:

Also, I don't think turning invisible objects purple can be directly deadly.
Causing something to glow faintly is pretty hard to make deadly except in very specific situations.
EDIT 2:
Another physical effect: turn the transfats in a chemically inert object into less unhealthy fats.
Last edited by Avoraciopoctules on Tue Oct 06, 2009 12:41 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by MGuy »

Don't magic systems all over the place cover needled magic force with bullet like effects, effects that produce spikes, etc etc?
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Post by Just another user »

RandomCasualty2 wrote: But if you're writing a system, you want to actually try to balance stuff, otherwise there's no point to writing the RPG in the first place if it doens't even work.
A RPG system don't have to be balanced to works (e.g. Ars Magica).

The problem is when a system is meant to be balanced but in reality isn't.
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Post by K »

MartinHarper wrote:So, say you can magically apply one pound/square inch of pressure, up to a maximum of five pounds, with an accuracy determined by pointing your finger, restricted by line of sight. Sure, you can gouge someone's eye out, but what do you do against someone wearing shades?
Five pounds of pressure is more than enough to crush someone's larynx and choke them to death. For a point of reference, it only takes 10 to crush an instep and that's bone.

But to answer your shades question, the answer is "push glass up into their eyes and into the brain."
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