Things that make you lose faith in the human race...

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 1:17 am

Bringing in the mail just now, I noticed my parent's got a catalogue of christian paraphenalia. I also noticed that there is a "Life size" crown of thorns for sale...

Apparently one instrument of torture in christian homes wasn't enough... pretty soon hard core christians are going to have room sized shrines that look like torture chambers... a cross on the wall, a crown of thorns sitting on a cushioned pedastal next to it, and a scourge lying across a broken pillar that looks just like the one from Passion of the Christ.

This brings a whole new meaning to the phrase "WWJD" and I think by now the answer is "vomit".

NativeJovian · Post by **NativeJovian** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 1:24 am

And religious people acting religious disappoints you... why? It's like being disappointed that water is wet or ice is cold.

Count Arioch the 28th · Sat Oct 17, 2009 1:45 am

I would love to have a room with torture devices in it. A pillory, a cat o'nine tails, nipple clamps, oversized phalli, etc.

I don't think that's what you are referring to though.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 1:57 am

I lost faith in humans when in an after school event in high-school the US went to war, and people were just saying to ignore it it wasn't important. Shortly after police came and called off the event and sent people home, and they were still acting disappointed that we got interrupted because of some fake war.....

Hell I don't think there has been a year while I was alive that the US wasn't at war with someone.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 2:17 am

I saw a news story...

In south Florida, a 15-year-old boy owed some other boy or boys money for a video game. When he couldn't, or didn't, pay it back, they tried to steal a bicycle at the 15-year-old's house. He called the cops.

And because he figured they'd try to get him back at school on Monday he skipped. They skipped, they found him, they doused him in rubbing alcohol and set him on fire.

He's alive. But, well, he's got months of hospital care and years of medical treatment to look forward to.

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 2:22 am

6th grade when my middle school got banned from a museum.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 2:38 am

Maxus wrote:I saw a news story...

In south Florida, a 15-year-old boy owed some other boy or boys money for a video game. When he couldn't, or didn't, pay it back, they tried to steal a bicycle at the 15-year-old's house. He called the cops.

And because he figured they'd try to get him back at school on Monday he skipped. They skipped, they found him, they doused him in rubbing alcohol and set him on fire.

He's alive. But, well, he's got months of hospital care and years of medical treatment to look forward to.

I have been watching that on the news, and haven't heard anything about the condition of Michael beyond fighting for his life....

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/10/ ... 5653.shtml

This just makes me lose faith in parent of bullies like this, rather than humans though, but that is just me. (If those "kids" aren't tried as adults for attempted murder, then I might lose faith in humans even more.)

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 2:53 am

Well, bullying like this has just been getting worse all the time. I think the US is at least handling this one correctly: school shootings, are about the only effective countermeasure against bullying I have yet to see. I nearly knifed a few people in high school and I have regretted not doing so ever since.

Although were I to rule the country (with an iron fist in an iron glove, with iron bits attached), I would mandate a system where, if someone is bullying you, you press a button and your entire school explodes in a nuclear blast. Let's see if we can get MAD to cover everything.

As for the torture stuff in houses: BRING IT ON!

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 3:35 am

The problem with the US is that parents educators and others still think telling people that are beaten or anything else to "get over it", "deal with it", and "it builds character" are still ok.

Funny thing is touching a police officer is a felony assault, but this "joking" and "hazing" is ok, and not even harassment.

Killing someone isn't the answer to being bullied. Locking up the parents of the bullies right along with them though is a step in the right direction, that might make lazy parents or abusive parents more apt to straighten their own acts.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 3:41 am

next step up on the list of "useless things to tell people who are being bullied"
"Ignore them and they'll go away"
Ie, the French approach.

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 6:16 am

Locking up the parents of the bullies right along with them though is a step in the right direction

Essay and anecdote time damnit.

Tough on crime bullshit never works. And that is stupid fucking tough on crime bullshit.

What part of that is going to work? Really? What's the mechanism here?

No. I have some experience with how this works and you are wrong, wrong, wrong.

The Problem
I went to a highschool far worse than the ones you suckers talk about.

Your 'banned from' stories are nothing. WE got banned from Taronga Zoo for trying to feed broken glass to monkeys. WE got banned from the local technical college for ridding BMXs on the carpets in the main hall. And on the paintings. Which they took off the walls and put on the carpets. Just so they could ride BMXs on them.

OUR bullies never needed reasons like monetary debts and blood was regularly and literally spilled on the sea of cement that our dated school was made out of.

If you went looking to see or hear about a fight around the school there you could easily find one basically ever day of the school week. Hell there were times in my life there, long extended months, where I couldn't go a week without PERSONALLY getting caught up in an act of violence. And not just some casual exchange of single blows or thrown rocks, that sort of shit could be daily during the bad times.

The problem was that no one in authority gave a shit. The school had a chain of disciplinary command that looked a bit like...

Teacher->Department Head->Head Teacher->Deputy Principle->Principal

Actitivities went on in that school that frankly warranted a call to the police, hell there were a few things that should have seen some kids go to court, but while you MIGHT find a teacher that wanted to take action, and MAYBE the department head would agree.

Well Head teacher and up just didn't want to know about it. They were all 'boys will be boys' assholes. Their disciplinary strategies were designed primarily to get you to piss the hell off and stop bothering them even if that meant you just went back to smashing each others heads into brick walls and throwing people down flights of cement stairs (which is usually less effective than it sounds I can assure you).

The deputy, to whom all violent incidents HAD to go to eventually basically locked both parties in a large room on their own for an extended period with instructions to work it out and agree on a punishment you would both share (during which presumably you either beat or threatened each other into the least possible sentence).

Hell the head teacher who was nominally in charge of 'anti racism' initiatives when approached by a friend of mine who had essentially been gang beaten along with his brother by like twenty guys for being basically the only asians in school simply said 'its none of my business' (he went on to become a high school principle elsewhere!).

The parents of the bullies don't fucking care either. Because frankly A) Their kid isn't a bully so shut the fuck up or get a walloping or B) Har HAR HAR, I'll give him a good walloping but I can't say it'll stop him, buts I likes doings it! or C) Wait, I have a kid?

So basically it was lord of the flies with a lot of cement. Everyone KNEW there basically weren't ANY rules and the only retribution as on the ends of your own personal fists.

...

The Solution
Then one day. We get new leadership. All top three positions on the disciplinary ladder are changed overnight. The new lady principal has an actual anti bullying policy. The new deputy takes disciplinary measures. Getting in a fight means you might just get in some actual trouble.

Suddenly you would be lucky to hear about a fight once a week. Unlikely to get in one or even SEE one in person once a month. And yeah, it also coincided with most of my year leaving (we were real bad-uns, worst in the schools records) and with me being old enough and with a big enough reputation (despite my tiny size) to have largely defeated all my few remaining personal enemies anyway.

But there was a real measurable difference out there. Ambulances only came to school for accidents you could virtually see the little year 7s and 8s dancing in the quadrangle in glee no longer afraid of going, well, everywhere that other students were at.

And while it might look like a tough on crime approach it is important to note that the punishment they doled out was NOT extreme or unusual. In fact. It was basically only the really rather lame punishment already mandated under the rules the LAST lot of administrators were SUPPOSED to be following.

If you went and beat on some kid you could know that the following would likely happen...
1) You might be sent to the school councilor to talk out your 'anger issues'
2) You might be sent to the deputy and, good god, get yelled at.
3) The deputy would actually take an interest make a simple judgment of guilt on available information, take sides and if he found you at fault apply such terrifying punishments as a brief suspension or time in detention.
4) There was an added measure that made going to watch a fight a minor offense for a student. That was handy, the blood thirsty mobs were often worse than the individual opponents. (I never ran from even the most hopelessly violent bully, but I ran from a mob once and I'm damn lucky I got away.)

And that was basically IT. A bit of god damn loud disapproval and the vague threat of maybe some far distant expulsion if the detention and suspensions didn't get through to you.

Studies back this up. NO punishment means crime. ANY punishment means less crime. INCREDIBLY SEVER punishment doesn't help.

...

Not the solution
On a related note.

Another piece of advice people give out that is useless about 'solving' a bullying problem is 'punch back and beat the fucker up, bullies are cowards'.

I did that. Largely through short temper than logical reasoning.

It worked great. For about five seconds.

See. Low level bullies, the guys that prey on some kid no one else notices. They ARE cowards. And fricking wimps. You can virtually take dolts like them out of your life with single a brisk slap about the face.

And if you lived in happy princess wonderland highschool that might be the end of the story and you live happily ever after.

But highschools where bullying really IS a problem aren't like that. It's not an episode of Growing Pains. Its an episode of a Japanese fighting anime.

When you defeat the wimp bully he gets revenge by finding the toughest guy HE knows and telling him to fight you.

When you defeat HIM he goes and gets the toughest guy he can find and tells him you called him a fucking twat and want to fight HIM.

And it keeps going until they find someone you can't beat or until you are on top of a DAMN large heap of bullies.

For me I got a big enough name that assholes moving into the school from out of town would be sent to fight me as an initiation hazing prank among asshole circles, or would seek me out on their own to make a name for themself.

Hell. I'm pretty sure I met my fucking highschool sweetheart because some fucker basically sent her to fight me.

A pity some junior psychopath smacked her in the head with the Cadillac Modern Encyclopedia and basically put an end to her (small) hopes of a moderately healthy life span.

Anyway. So yeah. "Hit them and they go away" is also bad advice unless you live in one wimpy bully town.

And probably isn't a great idea even then.

Count Arioch the 28th · Sat Oct 17, 2009 6:35 am

Phonelobster pretty much sums it up. Ignoring bullies makes them escalate their tactics, but severe penalties don't actually work.

Reminds me of my school. Except with no change of leadership. I got off lucky though, I got on the wrestling team freshman year and I basically had a number of tough and psychotic allies if I actually did run into any trouble. (It was generally assumed that anyone on the wrestling team was psychotic, an illusion that none of us really tried very hard to dispel. Individually, some of us did get beat up. Collectively, we all know a couple dozen tough guys on the team, as well as the football players backing us up if they saw what was going on.) So yeah, I got it bad, but I never got beat up real bad, and senior year I managed to give out some minor beatings myself. (Nothing too bad, mostly dominance displays that the other person backed down from when I threw a desk or trashcan a couple of yards.)

But if I didn't have allies, it would have been bad.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 7:44 am

Everyone knows the "They're cowards and insecure" line is bullshit and standing up to them doesn't work. As I suggested: school shootings. Because 0% of all people who were shot to death try that shit a second time or escalate the situation.

Then, when people say "Holy shit there are a lot of these here shootings." they might get off their fat, wobbling arses and actually investigate the cause, then institute a system that stops the problem from arising. But your average person can't trigger that - you can't magically make the school system shape up and stop people from fighting, bullying and assaulting, unless you're sleeping with the principal, and even then it's a maybe.

But anyone can make a difference with an assault rifle. It solves the problem for the individual (granted, it usually creates new problems such as "Criminal charges" or "An hero"), and contributes to society solving the problem.

But we all know any system I set up, were I prime minister, would be run based on my own whims and grudges. There would seriously be a law saying that having the name "Benjamin" is a capital offence.

ubernoob · Post by **ubernoob** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 9:54 am

Since we're sharing "Nerds in high school got bullied" stories...

My high school was (in retrospect) fairly nice. Not great, but definitely nothing close to what PL endured. It still had a chain of command of bullies (I only figured this out later). Anyways, freshman year I got bullied pretty bad. Didn't have any real fights that didn't get broken up before taking any real damage (honestly, I wasn't very good at fighting). I did break down in tears once though because it felt so bad.

Anyways, summer after freshman year I decided that I wasn't going to take any more shit from anyone. In conjunction with that decision, I decided that since I couldn't win by actual skill or power I would win by refusing to stop first (as in, never draw the line on anything before the other guy had already drawn his line of "too far"). I got into a few fights sophomore year, but when you seriously grab anything you can and use it as a weapon to go for a weak spot (Examples: Full soda can to bludgeon someone's head, pencil going for the eyes, leaping on their back to get a chokehold, breaking their balance to kick them as hard as possible straight in the face, etc) and always make a point not to show pain and to create an image of "I'd do it again. A shame they stopped me before I could do any permanent damage" people start to consider the possibility that you are willing to maim them for life.

As such, I can't honestly recall any instance of anyone ever trying to bully me after sophomore year. Apparently the entire school was under the impression that I was willing to maim anyone that tried to put me down (at the time, they were right; I'm a lot more pacifistic now). I know one guy from my high school apparently told four distinct people that were talking smack about me and wanting to beat me up something to the effect of "You don't want to mess with him. If you piss him off and he gets the chance, he will actually kill you and he won't do it just in the heat of rage. He'll hunt you down later if you get him angry enough at you. Seriously, he's psychotic. Consider carefully if you want someone that crazy after you."

So yeah, some girls thought I was crazy, but bullying ceased to be a problem after I convinced everyone that I am willing to do more damage than they are.

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 10:55 am

I never found the "he will fricking kill you" line to be successful.

As bad as my temper got under harsh conditions I lost it just a bit too much a couple of times.

There was this one guy who I lost it on bad. He was a real weaselly twat. Kept throwing a chalk board eraser at me repeatedly one day and as I strategized on what would be the most effective way to deal with the situation something in my head just went 'snap', and suddenly the most sane solution seemed to be to strangle him to death with one hand.

It took like half of my math class to drag me off him (not saying much there, it was advanced math) and he had bruises on his neck for like a fortnight. I broke him so good he could never so much as meet my gaze again.

Didn't do squat for me on any front other than dealing with that one guy. And he was right in the center of asshole social circles. There can't have been a violent jackass in my year that this guy didn't kiss ass to. When he was causing me trouble there wasn't a bully who's ear he wouldn't bend. But when I made him into a quivering wreck he was NOT out there making up for it by bending their ears saying "keep the fuck away from that guy he scares me now".

I'm telling you. No amount of violence is the answer. "Extreme" will, at best net you equally extreme opponents or total nutters.

I chased people with chairs, I threw people down stairs. I rammed them into walls and poles and railings. I flipped one guy over my back in a fight on a second story balcony (lucky bastard got tangled in my back pack). I crushed more than my share of necks and testicles. I knocked down a guy twice my size and weight in front of half the damn school with one damn hit after taking a good half dozen to the face without even noticing.

I'm TOLD I did other various scary things I don't even remember since in the most extreme cases I could tend to white out a bit and, apparently, have suffer some memory loss.

The knowledge that I would fight back at all would keep away a certain set of trouble makers.

The knowledge that I had beat them in the past would keep away another set, only after they came and fought me

But there was always a set that didn't care about the fact that I would retaliate and didn't care about how successful or extreme that retaliation would be.

It's like tough on crime all over again. Some threat helps. Extreme threat adds nothing.

ubernoob · Post by **ubernoob** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 11:48 am

Two things:
1) I'm pretty damn sure the class of bullies at my school weren't as extreme as your school. I'd put money on this, from what you're saying.
2) Funny enough, I didn't ever actually cause anyone permanent damage. I just *tried* to(the fights I was involved in got broken apart fairly swiftly- either nobody wanted to see the shrimp beat up or they didn't want the shrimp to stab somebody in the eye it seemed). I wasn't all that good at it, but for some reason people seemed to be concerned that the risk I would actually succeed was a reason not to mess with me.

Yeah, totally not suggesting appearing psychotic as the answer. It just kept the bullies off of my particular back somehow.

Maj · Post by **Maj** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 8:46 pm

Prak Anima wrote:Bringing in the mail just now, I noticed my parent's got a catalogue of christian paraphenalia. I also noticed that there is a "Life size" crown of thorns for sale...

Apparently one instrument of torture in christian homes wasn't enough... pretty soon hard core christians are going to have room sized shrines that look like torture chambers... a cross on the wall, a crown of thorns sitting on a cushioned pedastal next to it, and a scourge lying across a broken pillar that looks just like the one from Passion of the Christ.

Why didn't the spear ever catch on?

Count Arioch wrote:I would love to have a room with torture devices in it. A pillory, a cat o'nine tails, nipple clamps, oversized phalli, etc.

Gotta watch that stuff around the kids, though.

Maxus wrote:And because he figured they'd try to get him back at school on Monday he skipped. They skipped, they found him, they doused him in rubbing alcohol and set him on fire.

<shudder>

The lack of empathy is just amazing. I can't even imagine what sort of minset it takes to pull that stuff off.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 9:56 pm

Maj wrote:The lack of empathy is just amazing. I can't even imagine what sort of mindset it takes to pull that stuff off.

Did you also catch the part where 2 of them laughed when they were arrested and when they were in jail about it and him being nearly burnt to death. There is the real shudder thing at how the school and anyone else never noticd this before, or did and ignored it.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 2:12 am

Koumei wrote:Then, when people say "Holy shit there are a lot of these here shootings." they might get off their fat, wobbling arses and actually investigate the cause, then institute a system that stops the problem from arising.

I assume that you're kidding, but this deserves an answer. What you really get is zero tolerance of bringing tools to school. Bullying is not viewed as the problem (and may well not be, in school shootings).

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 3:37 am

CatharzGodfoot wrote:Bullying is not viewed as the problem (and may well not be, in school shootings).

Reduction in bullying can lead to a reduction in the frequency of violence escalating in schools.

Gun control could reduce the degree to which that violence will escalate.

Better, safer, happier social environments in schools is the better solution for reducing violence over all.

But if you just want to stop actual shootings making it mildly inconvenient for deeply disturbed teenagers to get access to fire arms would probably be at least as helpful.

What you really need is both, so you only rarely get kids running around on violent sprees and when you do they rarely get access to fire arms.

But hell like you are going to get THAT sort of policy in America. What are you Swedish communists or something?

Crissa · Post by **Crissa** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 6:00 am

I thought christians had a rule or something about worshipping physical items?

-Crissa

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:10 am

Crissa wrote:I thought christians had a rule or something about worshipping physical items?

-Crissa

That's Jews. Christians don't have to follow the commandments if they ask for Jesus' intervention. And they don't.

-Username17

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:12 am

Crissa wrote:I thought christians had a rule or something about worshipping physical items?

-Crissa

Oh, God bless you Crissa, that's not worship, that's veneration. Or respect. Or maybe having it as a reminder of how our Lord Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins and we'd better damn well remember it or he'll knock us into Hell.

/sarcasm

More seriously though, I wouldn't exactly call it worship, I guess. I suppose people don't go, "O Crown Of Thorns, grant me relief from my suffering."

Still, sorting out what the actual rules are would be a pain which would require going back to the original source and translating it, and then comparing it with the other major translations of the Bible. And then you'd have the thankless task of convincing people that this is actually what the original Bible says and that all sorts of errors or edits have occurred over the years. Then you'd have to convince them about what parts of the Bible people are supposed to live by. F'rinstance http://godhatesshrimp.com/ and an explanation: http://godhatesshrimp.com/about.php

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 9:49 am

It's supposed to be a "devotional object." A focus for them to contemplate as they think about Jesus and what he went through and how that bastard cutting you off is nothing compared to the pain he went through and it makes you a stronger person to be a doormat and offer it up to Jesus and blahblahblahfuckingblah.

I fully understand it as a devotional item.

Fuck, I even understand that shit as an icon of what one believes... it's why I proudly have my Satanism books on a shelf apart from all other books, wear a sigil of baphomet and have items that display some of my favourite deadly sins in places of prominance or ornamentation in my bedroom.

but... seriously... my icons of my philosophy are either functional, like knives and cookbooks, ornamental, like my necklace, or pleasant, like statuary and figurines depicting barely clothed women.

Why the fuck would some one enshrine a torture device...

I mean... other than them being a sick depraved individual with a twisted sense of style... I totally get that...

...I ever mention I kind of want to acquire an electric chair and put cushions on it to use as my easy chair?

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 2:36 pm

CatharzGodfoot wrote:I assume that you're kidding,

That's quite an assumption to make. I seriously don't think anything is going to be done to make it better until more students go on shooting rampages, and while I don't endorse or assist criminal activity, they still have my full support.