Skill Feats

[God_of_Awesome]

Where are they written. I remember seeing them before but I can't seem to find them.

[koz]

The last few Tome PDFs have had them in the 'Community Material' section.

[Utterfail]

http://code.google.com/p/awesometome/downloads/list

The newest PDF has them as a sub-chapter in the feats chapter.

[Surgo]

They aren't particularly impressive. It would be great to have some more.

[Utterfail]

Aye, along with some [Magic] feats.

[Red_Rob]

Personally I can't see the need for (Magic) Feats. The point of (Combat) feats was to give non-casters class features as powerful as spells. Spellcasters already have a class feature as powerful as spells.

The Tome additions have just about got non-casters to an equal footing. Give casters another boost and you're right back where you started.

[IGTN]

Personally I can't see the need for (Magic) Feats. The point of (Combat) feats was to give non-casters class features as powerful as spells. Spellcasters already have a class feature as powerful as spells.

The Tome additions have just about got non-casters to an equal footing. Give casters another boost and you're right back where you started.

I have a few [Magic] feats in a project I'm writing. Two of them deal with Item Creation, which sucks for you to take, and the rest deal with blasting. There are kinds of casters who need a powerup.

[Utterfail]

Id say the old [Metamagic] feats should be nixed entirely under the "Raw numbers a worthwhile feature do not make" idea.

But some sort of [Magic] feat needs to exist, because honestly, spellcasters need something to spend their feats on.

[Magic] feats, optimally, should give interesting new choices to magic users without increasing their vertical power, unlike [combat] and [skill] feats which make combat and skills more powerful and viable.

[Kaelik]

Red Rob, the purpose of combat feats was to bring feats for fighter up to the level of importance of feats for Wizards and Clerics, and then further to make BAB actually matter.

But of course and combat feat does more for a fighter than any magic feat does for a Wizard. You can tell that by the way Wizards take Combat feats even though they only get half effect out of them.

The purpose of the classes was to give fighters class features that are as good as spells.

Parry Magic/Barbarian using Fort save for everything/Foil/Iajitsu/Ancestral Weapon, ect.

Those are class features that compare well with spells. The feats are just making feats better, and Wizard feats are balls.

You either have shit brokenly good that comes from harvesting way to many fucking feats, like Easy Metamagic + metamagic feats + Arcane Thesis, or Cleric DMM + Extra Turnings.

Or you have shit that on it's own is balls crazy for a feat: Like Greenbound summoning, but that's few and far between.

Or you have ass feats that aren't worth taking.

So Magic feats would be fucking great.

Because they could be not as powerful as Combat feats, but still scaling and worth taking.

Instead of Greenbound Summoning, you have that one that Akula made.

Instead of +1 to CL for Teleportation spells, you have a teleport ability a few times a day, and at higher levels it becomes immediate action and then you get to roll twice or not take damage when you appear in a wall or whatever.

Instead of DMM Persist/Extend ect, you have one feat called:

My Spells Last Forever[Metamagic]
"Look at it, it's still going, I could watch this for hours. No literally. Hours."
Your spells stay around longer than the average mage.
0: Your add your casting stat modifier to the duration of every spell you cast, this duration increase is the same length as a similar boost to CL would be.
1: You gain the Extend Spell Metamagic feat.
3: You may automatically Extend up to your Int mod spells per day. If you have your Int mod in Extended spells this way all currently active, You may not use this ability until one of those spells ends.
6: All your spell durations increase to the next longest duration. Rounds become minutes, minutes become ten minutes, ten minutes becomes hours, and hours become 24 hours (if your CL exceeds 24, you may choose to use them as hours per level).
8or 9: You may designate your casting stat modifier in spells as permanently active. Their duration becomes permanent (D). To designate another such spell when you have your casting stat modifier in spells permanent in this manner, you must dismiss a permanent spell. This ability does not affect the needed concentration to maintain a spell. If you cease concentration on a spell it will last only as long as it would normally last without concentration.

[Red_Rob]

So, given that the two most glaring omissions from the newest Tome pdf are Metamagic Feats and a finalised Magic Item system, I'd like to have a look at Metamagic Feats. Browsing through the older TGD stuff I came across this thread which included this suggestion from AlphaNerd:

Metamagic Feats are already inherently scaling feats. There is really no reason to have them also have scaling abilities.

I personally like the following ruleset:

[Metamagic] Feats allow you to increase the potency of the lower level spells you can cast. Each application of a metamagic feat increases the Metamagic Level (ML) by the amount listed. You may only apply metamagic to a spell such that the spell level plus the metamagic level is less than or equal to that of the highest level spell that you can cast. All metamagic effects affect the entire spell. Thus, if you cast a widened, empowered fireball, the empowering doesn't just apply the normal area of effect of the fireball, its effect is widened as well. Anything else is silly and obnoxious.

Preparation casters much choose which metamagic feats they wish to apply to spells when they prepare them. Spontaneous casters must choose which metamagic feats to apply when they cast them. Spontaneous spellcasters don't take longer to cast spells with metamagic feats. That's just silly.

Just like everything else in the game, the save DC for your spells is 10 + 1/2 Character Level + Primary Ability Modifier


Subtle Spell [Metamagic]

Still: You may remove any somatic components from the list of components of a spell. This increases the ML by +1.

Silent: You may remove any verbal components from the list of components of a spell. This increases the ML by +1.

Eschew Materials: You can cast any spell that has a material component costing 1 gp or less without needing that component.


Shaped Spell [Metamagic]

Enlarge: You can alter a spell with a range of close, medium, or long to increase its range by 100%. This increases the ML by +1.

Widen: You can alter a burst, emanation, line, or spread shaped spell to increase its area. Any numeric measurements of the spell’s area increase by 100%. This increases the ML by +1.

Sculpt: I'm not allowed to reproduce the text, but you may apply the feat Scuplt Spell to a spell for a ML of +2.


Duration Spell [Metamagic]

Extend: You may double the duration of a spell whose duration is not concentration, instantaneous, or permanent. This increases the ML by +1.

Persist: You may increase the duration of a spell one or two steps along the following chart. Each step increases the ML by +3. If the duration of the spell is not on the chart, you cannot improve it in this manner.
1round/level -> 1min/level -> 10min/level -> 1hr/level -> 24 hours

Strong Spell [Metamagic]

Empower: You may choose to increase the potency of your spells by increasing all numerical variable (random) effects by 50%. This increase the ML by +1.

Maximize: You may choose to set all random numerical variable (random) effects of a spell to their maximum values. This increases the ML by +2.


Quicken Spell [Metamagic]

Quicken: You may choose to cast a spell that normally takes a standard action as a swift action, or you may choose to cast a spell that normally takes a full round action as a standard action. Either use increases the ML by +4.

Spell Timing [Metamagic]

Twin: You get two for the price of one. You may choose to have a spell go off twice immediately with the same everything. This increases the ML by +3.

Repeat: You get one now and one later for the price of one. A repeated spell is automatically cast again at the beginning of your next round of actions. No matter where you are, the secondary spell originates from the same location and affects the same area as the primary spell. If the repeated spell designates a target, the secondary spell retargets the same target if the target is within 30 feet of its original position; otherwise the secondary spell fails to go off. This increases the ML by +2.

Delay: You can choose to have a spell go off anywhere from one to five rounds later. The spell must have a target of personal, touch, or an area effect. This increases the ML by +1

---

On a side note, is Delay even worth +1? Ok, let's assume that you ban timestop. What about then? Frankly, I think it's +0. It's not like it is just an option, you have to set it to at least one round later.

Anyhoo, that's like 6 metamagic feats, which is probably a reasonable number. That actually means you can spend your feats on other stuff like combat feats you won't get too much use out of, or item creation or whatever else.

As a nice, simple replacement for the Core Metamagic Feats that doesn't require learning a whole new subsystem or tracking another set of scaling benefits, I like it. It looks like it allows casters to funky up their lacklustre lower level spell slots without allowing any obvious gamebreaking cheese. However, it does allow automatic Metamagic on all spells you have that are lower than the highest level you can cast, which could give even more versatility to casters than they enjoy at the moment. Perhaps if you could apply a total number of Metamagic levels equal to your caster level when memorising spells?

Is there anything I'm not seeing here that will break this wide open?

[Kaelik]

I think that is probably the best remake of metamagic feats I have ever seen.

Honestly, a level 15 Wizard should just be able to quicken spells all the damn time without having to worry about using up his higher level slots, it's Magic fucking missile for god sakes, it's not a 5th level slot.

EDIT: The only thing I would need to fix for my own set of crazy rules is Persist spell, and only because I need to redo durations to not be ass.

[Red_Rob]

I'm a little wary of every spell 4 levels lower than your maximum being quickened - at level 9 you get 5th level spells, so you can then have 5 quickened Color Sprays or Ray of Enfeeblements every day. What do you think would be the best way of limiting the number of Metamagic levels you can apply in some way?

[Kaelik]

I'm a little wary of every spell 4 levels lower than your maximum being quickened - at level 9 you get 5th level spells, so you can then have 5 quickened Color Sprays or Ray of Enfeeblements every day. What do you think would be the best way of limiting the number of Metamagic levels you can apply in some way?

Assuming you are asking me specifically:

"You should not be such a pussy ass bitch and stop trying to limit them you bitch whore. I don't care if you have 5 quickened Color Sprays or Rays of Enfeeblements a day as a level 9 Wizard."

[mean_liar]

Unless I'm missing something you still can't crank out more than 1 swift action a turn.

[Gelare]

A quickened ray of enfeeblement for a ninth level wizard is pretty much insulting.

However, those alternate metamagic rules, while cool and elegant, are basically just free power for casters, which I'm really not sure they need. It does, however, transform their lower-level spell slots into potentially level-appropriate actions, which might help turn the 5-minute workday into a 15-minute workday.

[Red_Rob]

Okay, I was reading Ray of Enfeeblement as ability damage. Yeah, it sucks. An extra sv. vs. stun every round for 5 rounds sounds useful at any level, though. The main reason is the rule that saves scale with char level not spell level, meaning every sv. or suck is a level appropriate threat. But its probably not gamebreaking I'll admit.

I'm on board with casters not needing a boost, but they also need something to spend their feats on. These abilities don't push the power level of the lower level spells past the higher level spells as far as I can see, and i would prefer a system where Metamagic is actually used, rather than the current system where it is merely abused.

By limiting in an absolute sense the level of spells you can apply metamagic to you also remove several cheese options. I'd be in favour of removing divine metamagic and just having this apply to all casters.

[Kaelik]

Casters need a boost. If you are playing in a Tome game, you have to be a Druid or a fucking cheater to even keep up with Tome characters at all.

Tome characters were made for people who already play with total dumpster diving craziness and who already know how to play a Wizard and already know how to identify monsters weak saves from any description and who already know to use Silent Image as a wall, sack on someone's head, rain of cherry blossums that you warned your party is an illusion and is centered on you, ect.

If you are playing with anything less than TOTAL OPTIMIZATION POWER FORCE EPIC! Your caster is a shit character who will feel shitty.

You people need to stop whining about how powerful Wizards are how they don't need a boost and actually play a game with "Normal" Wizard that does not have Persisted defenses or infinite armies in a game with Tome characters. You are a suck or lose caster, so what's, you are good, but not that good. You are probably worse than every other character.

I mean really, what is the big damn deal? Oh knows, with Twin + Quicken at high level, like 15, can force four saves against lose per turn? So fuckin what? The Monks up to like 6ish, and the Fighter hit four at level 6.

[Dominicius]

I am currently writing up a metamagic feat tome style, to replace standard metamagic. I am also writing school specific feat so you must be able to cast a spell of this level from school X to get the benefits.

I'll post some a bit later.

[Surgo]

However, those alternate metamagic rules, while cool and elegant, are basically just free power for casters

No, they aren't.

They are a nerf in that metamagic abuse, which was the only way to use metamagic effectively, was way too powerful. We're talking Incantatrix and Divine Metamagic here, along with Arcane Thesis and everything that goes with it.

These rules are a boost for casters who use metamagic the way it was probably intended to be used. That's fine, because the way it was probably intended to be used wasn't working at all. It also cuts off the metamagic-abuse-out-the-ass option, which was just out of line.

It's like the most ideal solution you could have.

[Dominicius]

On the topic of feats, I have been thinking of putting a slight limit on how many tome feats you can have.

The basic premise is this. If you have full bab class you can have up to 4 combat feats but you cannot multiclass into a class that has less than full bab. If you gave a class with medium bab then you can pick two combat feats but cannot multiclass to a class with poor bab. And poor bab class get no combat feats at all.

Similarly, classes eight skillpoints per level get three skill feats. Those with six get two and those with four get one.

Any class can take a metamagic feats (since they are limited by spell level) but they are limited to a max of two only.

Tome feats are kinda powerful considering how many of them you are able to have and what they let a character do. I know that people here will likely be able to convince me otherwise so I will just go ahead and put my ideas here for your judgment.

[Kaelik]

Even I disagree with that.

Mostly the feats are fine, if you don't have a bonus feat every other level.

And feats should be not shitty, Combat feats are certainly better than caster feats, but that's a problem with caster feats being mostly balls anyway.

[NineInchNall]

If you are playing with anything less than TOTAL OPTIMIZATION POWER FORCE EPIC! Your caster is a shit character who will feel shitty.

You people need to stop whining about how powerful Wizards are how they don't need a boost and actually play a game with "Normal" Wizard that does not have Persisted defenses or infinite armies in a game with Tome characters. You are a suck or lose caster, so what's, you are good, but not that good. You are probably worse than every other character.

Uh, I disagree. Even a core-only Wizard can, without any dumpster diving, render large swaths of enemies irrelevant. A simple black tentacles is usually enough to end groups of medium-or-smaller enemies; adding a stinking cloud on top of that is, while entertaining, usually completely superfluous, as there are other people in the party hacking away at the ones that manage to make it out of the anime tentacle rape zone.

They are a nerf in that metamagic abuse, which was the only way to use metamagic effectively, was way too powerful. We're talking Incantatrix and Divine Metamagic here, along with Arcane Thesis and everything that goes with it.

I second this. Looking through my reams of character builds, I notice that every character that uses metamagic does so through some method that reduces or eliminates the slot level increase.

Which is retarded.

[Judging__Eagle]

Basically, they move things to the center. Removing things on the bottom end, and curtailing things from the top end.

[Dominicius]

Even I disagree with that.

Mostly the feats are fine, if you don't have a bonus feat every other level.

And feats should be not shitty, Combat feats are certainly better than caster feats, but that's a problem with caster feats being mostly balls anyway.

So if, for example, a character is able to get 10-11 feats during his career, it would in theory be ok to have all those feats be tome style scaling feats?

Another thing I am worried about is that if I allow full access to tome feats the characters will become very samely as they pick the same feats simply by virtue of having so many feats that they can just pick 80% of what is written in the Tomes.

[Red_Rob]

Dominicus, the latest version of the Tomes includes both Combat and Skill feats. There are over 60 scaling Feats in there. Even a human character shouldn't have more than 7-8 feats by level 15 unless they are getting bonus feats so I don't see running out of options as very likely. Thats part of the reason Tome feats got boosted so much - most people don't actually get very many of them.

Its a pity Alphanerd isn't here to see the praise being heaped on his feats. After looking at the spell selection I can't see anything that jumps out as easily abuseable with this Metamagic system. I am about to start a Tome game and I'll be using these feats. I'll keep an eye out for anything that causes a problem.

If these Feats are balanced and give casters more long term options whilst reducing cheese builds, I would support their inclusion in the next version of the Tomes.