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CatharzGodfoot
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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

Mask_De_H wrote: Weapon Skills:

(Okay, here's where I'm at an impasse. I don't know whether I want for each weapon to inflict a bonus/penalty to a stat or if they should have some random flavorful ability.)

The Stat Method:
Axe: -1 to opponent's Dex defense
Fist: -1 to opponent's Int defense
Sword: +1 to Strength defense
Spear: +1 to Dex defense
Gun: +1 to Will defense
Bow: -1 to opponent's Will defense
Knife: -1 to opponent's Strength defense
Staff: +1 to Int defense

or:

The Flavor Method:
Axe: Wound (every three "HP" lost) causes Slowing (a la TNE)
Fist: idunno lol
Sword: X turn charge Parry
Spear: X turn charge Whirlwind or "Setting the charge" (if someone enters your threat space, they get AoO'd)
Gun: X turn Luck Domain attack reroll
Bow: X turn ignore terrain/cover or X turn aim and shoot (bonus to hit and damage)
Knife: Wound causes Bleeding (take 1 HP damage every turn)
Staff: X turn charge retributive attack
People probably shouldn't be attacking other's intelligences with fists. Ideally, I'd prefer something more like the following:
[*]Axes chop through stuff: extra effective against heavily armored characters.
[*]Swords slice people in half: extra effective against lightly armored targets.
[*]Spears are long: reach.
[*]Fists can grab: bonus to tripping, grappling, even disarming.
[*]Knives are quick and concealable.
[*]Staves can parry especially well.
[*]Guns can punch through heavy armor.
[*]Arrows are barbed.
Mask_De_H wrote:Well, I was thinking of calling each session a Story or an Episode, and having the powers go off of X times an [arbitrary name for session] or once an [arbitrary name for a session]. Or just be At-Wills if I set them up more like Tome Feats.
It's kind of strange to intentionally encourage short sessions (or even filibustering).
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RobbyPants
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Post by RobbyPants »

CatharzGodfoot wrote:[*]Axes chop through stuff: extra effective against heavily armored characters.
[*]Swords slice people in half: extra effective against lightly armored targets.
[*]Spears are long: reach.
The question is how to balance reach against raw damage. Assume a sword/axe deals 2d6 damage and a spear deals 1d6. This works okay if you get one free attack with the spear and then one on your round, but only if you can drop the guy with about 2d6 damage.

If you can drop him in 1d6 damage, it favors the spear, as you can kill opponents without reprisal. If it takes more than 2d6, it favors the sword/axe, as that one free attack won't make up for all the extra attacks you have to make.

Maybe that's a good thing. Some amount of situational gains/losses are inevitable (and somewhat welcomed) in a game this complicated. I guess the trick is making sure one option isn't better than the others most of the time.
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Post by Username17 »

Robby Pants[/quote wrote:The question is how to balance reach against raw damage.
That would be only a small part of it. I can see a very good argument for most of the "reach weapons" to be the high raw damage weapons. A battle axe hits harder and reaches farther than a hand axe, right?

The key is to divide up the weapon space into a sufficiently large number of sub categories that there are many tradeoffs for each one. Weapon length is not unambiguously an advantage in the real world and need not be in the game. Weapon length could penalize concealability or utility in enclosed spaces or close combat. It could make it harder to dual wield or use a shield.

A weapon being longer has real advantages. Up to and including giving you more leverage and generally doing more damage. But there are real reasons that real people do not use the longest weapons they can lift in every instance.

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Mask_De_H
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Post by Mask_De_H »

Some early morning thoughts:

Set the range of reach weapons to 2 and make advancing into a threatened space or out of a threatened range provoke an AoO. If the AoO hits, the target's move is ended and he is forced to stay in the threatened space until his next turn. So a tanky guy can draw aggro by having an actual area of control with a reach weapon, but somebody with a knife/sword/whatever and deflection/high AC can slip through and get under the weapon for stabbity goodness
FrankTrollman wrote: Halfling women, as I'm sure you are aware, combine all the "fun" parts of pedophilia without any of the disturbing, illegal, or immoral parts.
K wrote:That being said, the usefulness of airships for society is still transporting cargo because it's an option that doesn't require a powerful wizard to show up for work on time instead of blowing the day in his harem of extraplanar sex demons/angels.
Chamomile wrote: See, it's because K's belief in leaving generation of individual monsters to GMs makes him Chaotic, whereas Frank's belief in the easier usability of monsters pre-generated by game designers makes him Lawful, and clearly these philosophies are so irreconcilable as to be best represented as fundamentally opposed metaphysical forces.
Whipstitch wrote:You're on a mad quest, dude. I'd sooner bet on Zeus getting bored and letting Sisyphus put down the fucking rock.
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Post by RobbyPants »

Oh, certainly. It's like the whole "the romans shortened their swords and conquered the world" thing. In the right circumstances, short weapons are ideal.

I'd thought of something like this for 3.5, but I wasn't sure if it was worth the work. I figured you could easily lump weapons into five categories:
- unarmed attack
- light weapon
- one-handed weapon
- two-handed weapon
- reach weapon

Each of these categories would increase the reach of the weapon. The first four categories would strike adjacent squares (assuming a medium size creature), but people wielding larger weapons would get AoOs against people wielding smaller weapons, just as if they had a reach weapon.

This could be expanded by giving some weapons a special property that let them count as having longer/shorter reach for their base size, and other things would have to be added to make the system better. I never got that far in my brainstorming, but I think the idea has some merit.
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Post by Username17 »

If you want people to use a wide variety of weaponry in the course of their duties, it is imperative that weapons have a wide variety of variables. The lesson of the 4e weapon system is that a reductionist set of weapon modifiers leads to a reductionist set of weapon uses. People pretty much use Longswords until they invest in the ability to use Bastard Swords. And this is because +1 to-hit is simply worth more than the other powers that weapons get (such as +1 damage). If you want people to use a flail or a morningstar sometimes, you're going to have to have a more complex set of weapon bonuses.

But be that as it may, there is I think a method of rule accumulation that should be followed in order to get the outcomes we're looking for. Namely that fixed options should be settled on first and the variable choices that are supposed to be compatible with those written in later.

What that means is that you've got Tieflings and you've got Gnomes. Tieflings are Cruel and Gnomes are Creative. And that's fine. But you've got a bunch of different kinds of Bards. So when you're making sure that Tieflings and Gnomes can both be good Bards, it makes more sense to start with the powers of being a Tiefling or a Gnome and then write in the Bard Powers on top of that so that they can definitely use either one. And subclasses goes even farther. A subclass doesn't change depending upon what the choices you made in your base class, so it's actually much harder to change how a Subclass works to accommodate the needs of Bards than it is to change one path of Bard to accommodate the needs of that subclass.

The goal ultimately is that every basic race/class/subclass combination can be made in a viable fashion. Not that every possible selection needs to be good. But merely that if a new player looks at the top level options; that they can have a viable character made for them using those options by the players who are familiar with the game. Being an unarmored Paladin subHero doesn't have to be a viable option, but being some kind of Paladin subHero has to be a viable option.

This is why I think the step is to consider the progressions of the subclasses first and then build up to the full classes afterward. Very basically, I see the 13 core classes broken into three groups, which in turn allows us to make and test a different path to work in each of those limited cases. So when we write the Darkness Warlock we can be writing that from the standpoint of a Group II class matchup. So we test the Darkness Warlock as a concept subbed with Bard, Druid, Necromancer, and Psion. It would of course be nice if being a Darkness Warlock subbed Elementalist or Monk well too - but we don't honestly care. We are actually testing the Lightning Warlock through Group I and the Fire Warlock through Group III. So ideally, we'll be able to say with confidence that the Darkness, Lightning, and Fire Warlock are all playable, and that a Warlock/subPaladin and a Warlock/subArtificer or whatever are all playable as well. We can't possibly test every possible combination, but by making these representative samples workable, we can have a handleable
math problem. And at the end of the day we can pronounce the minimal case that a new player can select any of the basic options and not have the other players shake their head and ask them to pick again.

Group I:
  • Gish
  • Hero
  • Monk
  • Paladin
  • Ranger
Group II:
  • Bard
  • Druid
  • Necromancer
  • Psion
Group III:
  • Artificer
  • Elementalist
  • Rogue
  • Warlock

But anyway, back to Race. I figure that each racial ability set should include 3 powers:
  • One "action" power that affects your attacks or something. Maybe Elven Agility lets you call for an Agile Strike that gets to roll two attack rolls and keep the better one, while Drow Treachery gives you Treacherous Strike that lets you grab combat advantage for no reason on an action.
  • One "tactical" power that affects movement or defenses. Drow get Treacherous Tactics that let them switch places with an ally, while Gith get a Phasing Leap where they get to teleport instead of moving normally.
  • One "utility" power that affects Skill Challenges. This doesn't affect class balance much at all, so it can actually be deferred. As long as you remember to actually do it and not defer it until a few days before publication like 4e's Skill Challenge rules.
So these abilities should all be very open and functional with whatever class you happen to be. If you're an Elementalist subArtificer you are probably a vulnerable cloth wearer who wants to stay out of melee. And if you're a Monk subPaladin you're almost certainly a brawler who wants to get all up in there and soak things. But either one could benefit from the Drow tactical ability by swapping the cloth wearing nuker out of close combat and the metal gauntletted brawler into close combat.

But that ability set should probably be concepted before making the subclasses, and the subclasses should be pretty nailed down before the paths of the main classes get much more than names.

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Mask_De_H
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Post by Mask_De_H »

Character Abilities:

Drow
Treacherous Attack (Boost): Your action is taken with Combat Advantage.
Spiderweb Tactics (Maneuver): Switch positions with an ally.
Distracting Recovery (Exploit): Annul a failed Skill check.

Dwarf
Sure Hit (Boost): Take an action with full concentration, ignoring distractions.
Determination (Maneuver): Roll a d6. Add the results to your next Will save. (mental soak). Usable once an encounter.
Stubborn Progress (Exploit): Gain +5 to all skill rolls on retries.

Elf
Graceful Attack (Boost): Reroll an attack.
Dancing Step (Maneuver): Shift extra distance and ignore difficult terrain while doing it.
Absolute Poise (Exploit): Gain an extra stored Skill success.

Gith
Astral Reach (Boost): Increase the reach of your attack by 50% (minimum 2).
Phasing Leap (Maneuver): Teleport a short distance instead of moving normally.
Shadowing The Mind (Exploit): Use the skill check of another character in the challenge.

Gnome
Combat Experimentation (Boost): Your attack gets to go up against different defenses and resistances than normal.
Climbing the Giant Technique (Maneuver): Move into an opponent's space and ignore their zone of control.
Creative Problem Solving (Exploit): Use a different skill.

Goblin
Behind You (Boost): Shift immediately before or after your attack.
Cheese It (Maneuver): Move an extra 2 squares if not engaging an enemy.
Spanner in the Works (Exploit): Force a Skill reroll.

Halfling
Big Folk's Downfall (Boost): Get a big damage bonus against someone who hasn't hit/targeted you.
Second Chance (Maneuver): Force an enemy to reroll an attack against you.
Beginner's Luck (Exploit): Gain +5 to all skill rolls for the first check you make.

Hob
Unerring Strike (Boost): Take 10 on your attack.
Surety of Foot (Maneuver): Ignore Difficult Terrain and traps and stuff.
Muscle Memory (Exploit): Take 10 on a skill check.

Human
Jerry Rig (Boost): Roll a d6. Add it to either your damage or to-hit roll.
Anything Goes Defense (Maneuver): You may use a different resistance or defense against an attack.
Versatility (Exploit): Reroll a Skill Check.

Kobold
Predictive Counterattack (Boost): Attack during someone else's turn.
Shifty (Maneuver): Negate an opponent's Combat Advantage.
Just as Planned (Exploit): You may use your Skill check roll for another character's check.

Orc
Wrathful Attack (Boost): Get a damage boost on an attack you are making.
Fearless Charge (Maneuver): Move an extra 2 squares when moving to engage an enemy.
Impetuousness (Exploit): After successfully performing a skill check, immediately get an opportunity to use another.

Tiefling
Cruel Lashing (Boost): Get a big damage bonus on an attack you're making against someone who's harmed you.
Hardened By Hell (Maneuver): Choose Fire, Cold, Lightning, Acid, or Sound damage. Gain passive immunity to that element.
Fiendish Exploitation (Exploit): You gain double the bonus from Aid Another analog

Warforged
Metered Assault (Boost): Your action can be taken before your opponent's response.
Metal Resilience (Maneuver): Roll a d6 and add the result to your Fort save (physical soak). Usable once an encounter.
Tireless (Exploit): After failing a skill check, immediately get an opportunity to use another.
FrankTrollman wrote: Halfling women, as I'm sure you are aware, combine all the "fun" parts of pedophilia without any of the disturbing, illegal, or immoral parts.
K wrote:That being said, the usefulness of airships for society is still transporting cargo because it's an option that doesn't require a powerful wizard to show up for work on time instead of blowing the day in his harem of extraplanar sex demons/angels.
Chamomile wrote: See, it's because K's belief in leaving generation of individual monsters to GMs makes him Chaotic, whereas Frank's belief in the easier usability of monsters pre-generated by game designers makes him Lawful, and clearly these philosophies are so irreconcilable as to be best represented as fundamentally opposed metaphysical forces.
Whipstitch wrote:You're on a mad quest, dude. I'd sooner bet on Zeus getting bored and letting Sisyphus put down the fucking rock.
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Post by Mask_De_H »

Grouping Classes and Subclasses:

As for tactical groupings, those are as good a template for the three subjob groups as anything. Essentially it boils down to:
Group I classes benefit directly from front lining it - getting directly into the face of enemies and stabbing them. In the face.
Group II classes benefit directly from hiding behind allies.
Group III classes benefit directly from getting flanking shots - open attacks against enemies that are otherwise occupied.

At the risk of confusing Europeans, I'll use an American Football reference: Group I are linemen, Group II are quarterbacks, and Group III are Receivers. But those groupings don't actually say what a character is doing from those positions. A Psion might be spamming mind crushes and telekinesis assaults, but he does it directly into enemy minds and bypasses his front line allies, so the safest place for him is behind the Monk. So he goes Group II just as the Necromancer does, despite the fact that the Necromancer is a more traditional "general" position.

Group I:
Gish
Hero
Monk
Paladin
Ranger

Group II:
Bard
Druid
Necromancer
Psion

Group III:
Artificer
Wizard
Rogue
Warlock


Subclasses:

Group 1:

Hero
1 Precise Blows
2 Courageous
3 Grounding Shot
4 Inspiring Aura
5 Field Medicine
6 Dashing Blows
7 Giantbane
8 Determination
9 Flurrying Blows
10 Kingship

Monk
1 Leaper
2 Groin Kick
3 Poison Immunity
4 Ki Strikes
5 Throw
6 Air Walker
7 Seeing the Soul
8 Not Being There
9 Spell-Shedding Soul
10 Fiery Ki

Gish
1 Alarming Ward
2 Arcane Rebuke
3 Sigil of the Fang
4 Spellweave Ward
5 Mana Barbs
6 Surge of Power
7 Sigil of the Overlord
8 Reversing Ward
9 Veil of Reality
10 Sigil of All

Paladin
1 Cover
2 Zealot's Cross
3 Faith's Fetters
4 Benediction
5 Sacred Rebuke
6 Penance Glare
7 Shield of Faith
8 Ultimate Justice
9 Rapture
10 Absolution

Ranger
1 Split Shot
2 Verdant Stride
3 Hunter's Snare
4 Camouflage
5 Two Birds, One Stone
6 Spider's Web
7 Verdant Protection
8 Skysplitter
9 Bestial Hurricane
10 Survival of the Fittest

Group 2:

Bard
1 Carry a Tune
2 Hide
3 Dirty Limerick
4 False Friendship
5 Killer Riff
6 Bloodletter's Boast
7 Preordained Victory
8 Doomsong
9 Danse Macabre
10 Living Epic

Druid
1 Razorgrass
2 Anklebiter
3 Sweet Scent
4 Personal Flock
5 Creeping Thorns
6 Dire Companion
7 Thunderstruck
8 Beacon of the Wild
9 Gaia's Vengeance
10 Reclamation

Necromancer
1 Haunted
2 Touch of the Grave
3 Rag and Bone
4 Gnashing Horror
5 Patchwork Monster
6 Absolute Despair
7 Zombie Infestation
8 Call of Unliving
9 Friends on the Other Side
10 Reaper's Gluttony

Psion
1 Mental Static
2 Overthink
3 Mind Blast
4 Synchronize
5 Mind Crush
6 Psychokinesis
7 Neural Shutdown
8 Cogito Ergo Sum
9 Isolation of the Self
10 Beyond Good and Evil


Group 3:

Rogue
1 Tricky Bastard
2 Sneak Attack
3 Ceaseless Chatter
4 Sleight of Hand
5 Spot Dodge
6 Two for One
7 Cunning Forgery
8 Deathblow
9 Schrodinger's Heist
10 Steal the Sun

Warlock:
1 Eldritch Bullet
2 Fiendish Charisma
3 Dark Servant
4 Aura of Infernus
5 Shadowbind
6 Ethereal Puppet
7 Planar Wound
8 Dirge Finale
9 Eldritch Nova
10 Break the World

Artificer:
1 Quick Mix
2 Backfire
3 Potent Potables
4 Slipped a Mickey
5 Gatling Mix
6 Combustion Contraption
7 Body Mods
8 If p then q
9 Kill Sat
10 SCIENCE!

Wizard:
1 Mage Hand
2 Arcane Computation
3 Force Missile
4 Fog of Ages
5 Black Tentacles
6 Elemental Mastery
7 Planeshift
8 Celerity
9 Might of the Archmagus
10 Win D&D Universal Arcana
FrankTrollman wrote: Halfling women, as I'm sure you are aware, combine all the "fun" parts of pedophilia without any of the disturbing, illegal, or immoral parts.
K wrote:That being said, the usefulness of airships for society is still transporting cargo because it's an option that doesn't require a powerful wizard to show up for work on time instead of blowing the day in his harem of extraplanar sex demons/angels.
Chamomile wrote: See, it's because K's belief in leaving generation of individual monsters to GMs makes him Chaotic, whereas Frank's belief in the easier usability of monsters pre-generated by game designers makes him Lawful, and clearly these philosophies are so irreconcilable as to be best represented as fundamentally opposed metaphysical forces.
Whipstitch wrote:You're on a mad quest, dude. I'd sooner bet on Zeus getting bored and letting Sisyphus put down the fucking rock.
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RobbyPants
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Post by RobbyPants »

So how would you handle multiclassing in a system like this? Allow swapping of abilities from one class to another for same-level abilities? Would it be too powerful by allowing the class access to too many "colors"?
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Post by Username17 »

RobbyPants wrote:So how would you handle multiclassing in a system like this? Allow swapping of abilities from one class to another for same-level abilities? Would it be too powerful by allowing the class access to too many "colors"?
In a subjob system, the extent of allowable multiclassing is taking a subjob. You can make this feel more like multiclassing by allowing people to take their own main job as a subjob, even though almost no one will.

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MGuy
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Post by MGuy »

So you can only multiclass once under the subclass system?
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Post by Username17 »

MGuy wrote:So you can only multiclass once under the subclass system?
Pretty much. If you have Prestige Classes (also called "Advanced Classes," "Paragon Paths" or whatever) you can effectively multiclass more.

But in general, the amount of adjectives you use to describe a character's abilities becomes unmanageable if it gets very large. Subjobs, as well as denying subjobs to characters with a powerful race that takes up a lot of conceptual space is an effective way to manage that.

A subjob system essentially creates characters that might be appropriate in an ensemble cast like Startrek or He-Man.

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Post by Mask_De_H »

Yeah MGuy, you only get one multiclass option at this point, which is is your subclass. That being said, the goal is to make each class play in three slight but noticeable ways via the Path system. With 3 Paths, each with 3 options each, that's 9 different class permutations. Add in subjobs, and that's 117 total advancement options for each class. That's not including feats or races.

This system aims for a great deal of unique character options, while still keeping things manageable for the player and developers. Speaking of which, do the full Race power writeups look good folks?
FrankTrollman wrote: Halfling women, as I'm sure you are aware, combine all the "fun" parts of pedophilia without any of the disturbing, illegal, or immoral parts.
K wrote:That being said, the usefulness of airships for society is still transporting cargo because it's an option that doesn't require a powerful wizard to show up for work on time instead of blowing the day in his harem of extraplanar sex demons/angels.
Chamomile wrote: See, it's because K's belief in leaving generation of individual monsters to GMs makes him Chaotic, whereas Frank's belief in the easier usability of monsters pre-generated by game designers makes him Lawful, and clearly these philosophies are so irreconcilable as to be best represented as fundamentally opposed metaphysical forces.
Whipstitch wrote:You're on a mad quest, dude. I'd sooner bet on Zeus getting bored and letting Sisyphus put down the fucking rock.
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RobbyPants
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Post by RobbyPants »

So, there's 117 = 13 * 3 * 3. Is that 3 classes * 13 subclasses * 3 paths?

Do the paths apply to the class or the subclass?
Last edited by RobbyPants on Sat Jan 30, 2010 8:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Username17 »

RobbyPants wrote:So, there's 117 = 13 * 3 * 3. Is that 3 classes * 13 subclasses * 3 paths?

Do the paths apply to the class or the subclass?
Technically, you have two choices of 3 paths at first level in one of your 13 jobs, and one path in one of your 13 subjobs and one path available in one of your 13 races. So barring variations in feats or your 3 midlife crisis paths or your prestige paths if any, there are nineteen thousand, seven hundred, and seventy three characters you can make. And while it is reasonable to believe that all of those characters would be made within a few weeks of a physical book actually hitting stores, it is completely impossible to exhaustively test such a list.

That is why statistical sampling is of such importance. It's also why one of the main choices a player makes in their main job is designed to be probably synergistic with one of three groups of subjobs. That way you can spot check to see if the Avenger Hero path is functional by testing it with a Rogue, Artificer, Warlock, and Wizard subjob - and not with every single possibility.

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Post by RobbyPants »

Heh. That's both awesome and overwhelming. I really find this concept intriguing.
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Post by Username17 »

RobbyPants wrote:Heh. That's both awesome and overwhelming. I really find this concept intriguing.
With a little more jiggering, it can be even more efficient. Simply set a second assumed tactical variable for the second path choice. That if, you give your Necromancer an army option and a personal option. Both are three ability paths. The personal abilities path determines where we expect them to stand for basic tactical optimization. Position I (in front), Position II (behind), or Position III (flank). We could easily have a second tactical consideration, such as whether character is better at grinding, shocking, or skirmishing. Call that stances A, B, and C. And we could divvy up the subclass assumptions for those too.

Group A
  • Bard
  • Necromancer
  • Paladin
  • Wizard
Group B
  • Artificer
  • Hero
  • Psion
  • Ranger
Group C
  • Druid
  • Gish
  • Monk
  • Rogue
  • Warlock
Something like that. And so when you were considering a Bard sub, you'd be expecting tactical and positional synergy with the AII version of th class. Which for a Druid would mean that you'd take the A option (Murder of Crows) along with the II option (Storm Power). So you'd only have to test one kind of Druid/Bard.

And since each combination would be coming up more than once, you'd only have to test 9 copies of each class. And you'd rotate through the races and switch back and forth between the overlaping imperatives such as Monk and Gish (both of which provide for the CI path choices in playtest).

So you'd have a statistical sample you could rely upon after having made 117 viable characters that you could extrapolate to the nearly twenty thousand characters possible.

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Post by Mask_De_H »

Cool, that makes things a lot simpler. Before developing the powers, let's work out the combat system some.

In combat time, Initiative is measured by your Dex + Int. Turn order is determined by Initiative count.

There are three types of actions: Standard actions, Swift actions, and Free actions. You can make up to 2 Standard actions a turn. 2 Swift actions = 1 Standard action. Free actions don't take up any action slots. Powers say what action they take up in the description. Holding actions are still allowed, via leaving enough actions free.

Movement is measured in squares. Everybody gets a movement of 5 squares plus 1 for every 2 points of Dex they have. Moving is a Swift action, so yeah, you can move 20+ squares if you use all four Swift actions, and can charge up on a bowman in a turn.

At the beginning of combat time, every member in said combat can engage an enemy. Engaging an enemy keeps them in your sights, allowing certain abilities come online and allows you and your allies to gain advantage. On an engagement, the target can either engage you or choose to evade your engagement. If they evade, then roll an opposed Warcraft against the opponent's Warcraft or Acrobatics check. As a Swift action, you may engage another target, with a -1 penalty for each target you are currently engaged with.

Engagement Modes:
There are two major options you can employ to aid your allies with engagements: Block and Cover. If you are adjacent (within range 1) of an ally, you may Cover them as a Swift action. Covering an ally gives them a +4 bonus to their checks to avoid engagement checks. If you have an enemy within the minimum range of your attack, you may as a Swift action Block that character. Blocking gives that target a -4 penalty to their engagement checks.

Attacks are calculated via rolling a d20 to hit plus your weapon's accuracy modifier against a target number of 10 + Opponent's defense. For most physical attacks, the defense is against Dexterity, for most mental attacks, the defense is against Intelligence. One attack is a Standard action. Immediately before or after an attack, you can shift one square as a free action.

Each weapon has a specific range in squares (diagonals count as 1 square, not two), which is their threat range. If a target moves into or out of the threat range of a character after declaring an attack, they take an Attack of Opportunity from that character. If the Attack of Opportunity hits and bypasses soak, the target is stuck in engagement with that character, stopping them at the square the attack hit in.

Combat Advantage: Combat Advantage is a state where a character has the edge against an opponent. They gain a +2 to their to-hit against that opponent, as well as making certain maneuvers work more effectively.

Ways to gain Combat Advantage:
-Getting behind an opponent.
-Having multiple allies surrounding/engaging an opponent.
-Having the high ground.
-Successfully attacking an engaged target that has not engaged you.

Cover: Cover comes in two flavors: half and full. Half cover gives a +2 bonus to defense against any attack that does not come from inside the zone of cover. Full cover prevents any attack that would go through more than two squares in the zone of cover. It grants a +4 bonus to defense against any attack that does not come from inside the zone of cover.

(Devnote: What I'm trying to do here is make it so that the frontliner can take hate and have a solid chance of protecting the people in the back while punishing those that would attempt to ignore him, while making good positioning and swarming viable and dangerous.)
Last edited by Mask_De_H on Sat Mar 06, 2010 2:12 am, edited 2 times in total.
FrankTrollman wrote: Halfling women, as I'm sure you are aware, combine all the "fun" parts of pedophilia without any of the disturbing, illegal, or immoral parts.
K wrote:That being said, the usefulness of airships for society is still transporting cargo because it's an option that doesn't require a powerful wizard to show up for work on time instead of blowing the day in his harem of extraplanar sex demons/angels.
Chamomile wrote: See, it's because K's belief in leaving generation of individual monsters to GMs makes him Chaotic, whereas Frank's belief in the easier usability of monsters pre-generated by game designers makes him Lawful, and clearly these philosophies are so irreconcilable as to be best represented as fundamentally opposed metaphysical forces.
Whipstitch wrote:You're on a mad quest, dude. I'd sooner bet on Zeus getting bored and letting Sisyphus put down the fucking rock.
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Post by Username17 »

The core of a combat system is two factors:
  • Choices
  • Time
Choices are how you interact with the combat system. They matter ahead of time when you are equipping your character. They matter in the middle of combat. They are what makes you pay attention during your turn and what makes you pay attention when it is not your turn. Weapons and armors need to have multiple parameters each so that people don't simply use "the best one." Characters need to have different abilities that do different things so that they don't just use "the best power" each round. And the things your enemies do needs to actively affect what you can do so that you pay attention during enemy actions rather than just evaluating the board anew each time your turn comes around.

Time comes in three flavors:
  • In-game time
  • Actual chunks of your evening
  • Discrete units
The first is obvious. and a lot of people think it doesn't matter. But it does. See, the shorter combat rounds are, the less plausible it is that people can talk or get places during fights. Which means that with 3 second or even 6 second combat rounds it is wholly unreasonable that cavalry would ever arrive for any team. With a longer combat round, the sun could rise, the boat could rock, or new combatants could arrive to bolster one side or another. In short, longer combat rounds are very good for the game. The 3e D&D 6 second combat round is a problem and the SR/WoD 3 second combat round is an unmitigated disaster.

The second is pretty self explanatory. The longer in real physical time the battle takes to resolve the less other shit you can do in the evening. Of course, if it becomes short enough that there isn't time to make critical feeling decisions, then you've failed. But brevity is the soul of wit and all that.

And that ties in to the third thing: the number of actual turns that the players take. This actually matters, and it matters a lot. If you have to announce that you are using your moon ribbon assault as often as you press the A button in Street Fighter II or click the mouse in Diablo II it stops being exciting. On the other hand, if you don't have enough decision points you can't have an evolving strategy and indeed you end up just using the same start up sequence every battle.

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Post by TheWorid »

FrankTrollman wrote: The first is obvious. and a lot of people think it doesn't matter. But it does. See, the shorter combat rounds are, the less plausible it is that people can talk or get places during fights. Which means that with 3 second or even 6 second combat rounds it is wholly unreasonable that cavalry would ever arrive for any team. With a longer combat round, the sun could rise, the boat could rock, or new combatants could arrive to bolster one side or another. In short, longer combat rounds are very good for the game. The 3e D&D 6 second combat round is a problem and the SR/WoD 3 second combat round is an unmitigated disaster.
I'm not certain what you mean by this. What exactly breaks when rounds get shorter? What would be the optimum length of time?
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Post by Username17 »

TheWorid wrote: I'm not certain what you mean by this. What exactly breaks when rounds get shorter? What would be the optimum length of time?
As rounds get shorter, the ability to have real world events occur goes away. The police have a response time. The cavalry have a response time. Everything has a response time. Poison has a progression time. Bleeding has a progression time. And so on.

If real time doesn't pass, people can't bleed to death, bomb timers can't run down, and reinforcements cannot arrive.

As far as "best" combat rounds, it depends on what you're doing. 12 seconds to a minute seems like a pretty good compromise. Recall that a proper boxing match has 24-36 minutes of combat. And most historical major battles took hours.

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Post by Orion »

For Heroes, I'm imagining

Build 1: Champion. The champion uses melee attacks, taunts and/or reach weapons to hold aggro and kill stuff.

Build 2: Marshal. The marshal hangs back and peppers the field with arrows, while using Warlord-like abilities to reposition and buff his frontline allies.

Build 3: Cavalier. the Cavalier makes charging ride-by attacks which require him to be able to get into and out of the fight. He'd also do... something else.

I don't know how to separate this into two mix and matchable build paths. It's hard to imagine a "tank" power list that worked properly for both ranged and melee characters. I guess the "buff" set could work with all three. And I don't know what the third option would be.
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Post by Orion »

It seems like there should be a weapon-based Group II path-- possibly Ranger? or a guns & bombs Artificer?

Archery is a *very* popular concept among noobs. Of course, we'll have to design the subclass carefully so as to discourage newbs from just plinking away with their bow at the detriment of using their main job.
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Post by RobbyPants »

Combat round time is pretty tricky. Back when I played 2E, I was pissed off with the 1 minute round time. It seemed very ridiculous, and at least anti-heroic that the heroes would only get off one "good" hit per minute. I houseruled it down to 6 seconds and was glad to see 3E do the same.

Of course, you make a very good point that it's hard for other things to happen. I never really thought about it until I tossed around the idea of shorter combat rounds to increase resolution. I realized the same thing you mentioned: movement gets really tricky.

One thing I don't like with very long combat rounds, though, is how movement works. Chases get really weird because one guy runs, then the other guy runs, and this repeats. If guy 2 is within guy 1's movement, there simply is no chase.

I guess I picture 5E being similar to other versions of D&D in its scope: you have a bunch of badass heroes running around killing monsters and taking their stuff. Missing out on cinematic things like reinforcements sucks, but so does having a wonky combat system that isn't believable or heroic. I don't think I'd want to go more than six to twelve seconds.
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Post by Mask_De_H »

Orion wrote:For Heroes, I'm imagining

Build 1: Champion. The champion uses melee attacks, taunts and/or reach weapons to hold aggro and kill stuff.

Build 2: Marshal. The marshal hangs back and peppers the field with arrows, while using Warlord-like abilities to reposition and buff his frontline allies.

Build 3: Cavalier. the Cavalier makes charging ride-by attacks which require him to be able to get into and out of the fight. He'd also do... something else.

I don't know how to separate this into two mix and matchable build paths. It's hard to imagine a "tank" power list that worked properly for both ranged and melee characters. I guess the "buff" set could work with all three. And I don't know what the third option would be.
Lemme take a whack at it.

Group I - Inspiring Hero: Gets close melee (1-3) stuff, protects allies by holding and forcing back enemies.

Group II - Questing Hero: Catches people with traps and debuffing enemies. Gets setup powers that work at longish range (3-7).

Group III - Avenging Hero: Gets attacks and marks that make it hurt if an opponent doesn't target him, while wearing down his target's effectiveness.


Group A - Determinator: Powers focus on being a general tank, standing in the front line with powers that buff the party if they stay close to him. Rallies troops.

Group B- Thrillseeker: Charges into the enemy lines and has ways to get into and out of disparate parts of the field. Lot of movement powers that give him an even split of Mighty and Trickster range.

Group C: Unlikely: Gets "luck" abilities that cause enemies debuffs when they're in a certain range from him, plus stuff that would slow down any initial assault. Should be able to switch to single target sapping from decent ranges. Switches around party members.

EDIT: So for testing purposes, if we wanted sub Bard, we would go with a Questing Determinator (II-A), if we wanted sub Ranger we would go Inspiring Thrillseeker (I-B), and if we wanted sub Rogue we would go with Unlikely Avenger (III-C).

That means we make sure that the concepts of hanging back, throwing traps, and having the party stay near you as you block errant shots with your face works well with the AoE buff/debuff idea. Then, running in and out like Drizzt, blowing people back needs to work with going berserker mode and getting nature tricks has to work. And finally: taunts, first round debuffs, and burst damage have to work well.

On another note, I like the 12 second round myself, although 30 might make more sense depending on what the scale for movement is. I think that the Bard and/or the Psion can cover the weapons based Group II slot well enough, what with people wanting to play as Soulknifes/Soulborns/I-no and all.
Last edited by Mask_De_H on Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
FrankTrollman wrote: Halfling women, as I'm sure you are aware, combine all the "fun" parts of pedophilia without any of the disturbing, illegal, or immoral parts.
K wrote:That being said, the usefulness of airships for society is still transporting cargo because it's an option that doesn't require a powerful wizard to show up for work on time instead of blowing the day in his harem of extraplanar sex demons/angels.
Chamomile wrote: See, it's because K's belief in leaving generation of individual monsters to GMs makes him Chaotic, whereas Frank's belief in the easier usability of monsters pre-generated by game designers makes him Lawful, and clearly these philosophies are so irreconcilable as to be best represented as fundamentally opposed metaphysical forces.
Whipstitch wrote:You're on a mad quest, dude. I'd sooner bet on Zeus getting bored and letting Sisyphus put down the fucking rock.
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