Metamagic Progression

[koz]

Sinister: Well, Sorcerer does get kicked in the balls a little but I had a better reason that I frankly forgot because I take internet insult to heart so between crying from Kaelik's witty remarks and trying to tell my ass from a hole in the ground, I forgot it.

So I remark Spell Levels might be a good metric.

It has been a stated policy of more than one person on this very forum that the sorcerer spell progression is retarded. It has also been seen to by a very venerable member of this forum that the Sulin/Trollman Sorcerer does not have this problem. Therefore, I consider spell levels to be the best metric for this, as acquiring caster level is something marshalls can seriously do under Tome rules.

[Lokathor]

Would it do any particular harm if a character's caster level was always equal to their hitdice? Regardless of what class configuration they happen to pick?

Does the fact that more levels are required for more spell slots keep things working properly even when a Sorc1/Pal8 can shoot a few 5d4+5 Magic Missile spells or whatever?

Frankly, no, except you should have said 'character level' where you said 'hit dice'.

Ah, yes, of course. I've been toying with a generic class based version of the game that, among other things, makes Hitdice always equal to Level/CR, and tosses out LA (just using Minimum Level like Tome does). I had almost forgotten that they could diverge.

[koz]

Pretty much what my project is busy doing, too.

[Lokathor]

My biggest fear is that generic classes and large lists of class features to pick from makes the game a little more bland.

[koz]

My biggest fear is that generic classes and large lists of class features to pick from makes the game a little more bland.

Provided that the features are meaningfully different from one another, hardly.

[Lokathor]

Yeah but I've gotta write like.... lots and lots and lots of them.

Guess it depends on how often you give out features. I was going for 1/level for Fighter and Rogue and 1 at even levels for Sorcerer and Cleric. I wasn't quite sure how else to balance the spellcaster crazy against the non-casters.

[God_of_Awesome]

Make non-spellcaster crazy just as crazy as caster crazy.

[koz]

Yeah but I've gotta write like.... lots and lots and lots of them.

Guess it depends on how often you give out features. I was going for 1/level for Fighter and Rogue and 1 at even levels for Sorcerer and Cleric. I wasn't quite sure how else to balance the spellcaster crazy against the non-casters.

The thing is, spells have to be class features too - you have to put everything on even pegs in order to have anything even close to resembling an even keel.

For example, fireball can be flavoured as all kinds of things - an alchemical potion exploding at a certain point, a dude tossing a ball of fire or even a bazooka-type weapon shot. Basically, you need to put those abilities on pegs, and then use those pegs to write more abilities.

[Red_Rob]

The thing is, in line with the Tome ethos of "power up weak shit" it would be nice if the metamagic feats actually did what Kaelik was talking about in the Skill Feats thread and give something to those caster variants / options that are currently underwhelming next to battlefield control. This would mean there were more real options and less trap options.

Currently I'm thinking this includes Sorcerers / Casters with less than full casting level / Evokers and probably some more. Therefore in my opinion this wants to scale of skills, as spell level and caster level hurt multicasters and Sorcerers whilst giving more powerful effects to full casters.

Which is bad mm'kay?

[God_of_Awesome]

So what do you propose?

[koz]

The thing is, in line with the Tome ethos of "power up weak shit" it would be nice if the metamagic feats actually did what Kaelik was talking about in the Skill Feats thread and give something to those caster variants / options that are currently underwhelming next to battlefield control. This would mean there were more real options and less trap options.

Currently I'm thinking this includes Sorcerers / Casters with less than full casting level / Evokers and probably some more. Therefore in my opinion this wants to scale of skills, as spell level and caster level hurt multicasters and Sorcerers whilst giving more powerful effects to full casters.

Which is bad mm'kay?

Multicasters and sorcerers suck at a class level, not a concept level. If you want to solve this problem, it's better to solve it by writing classes that don't suck and allow you to carry those concepts. Then, [Metamagic] feats that scale could work equally well for everyone.

Oh, and while you're at it, you can also put spells at the levels where they belong. Such as fireball at level 1.

[God_of_Awesome]

I once created a feat that would allow you to get Fireball at level 1 and posted it on /tg/. I was told that was a bad idea. I can't remember the logic.

[A Man In Black]

I was told that was a bad idea. I can't remember the logic.

Well, nobody would take Burning Hands!

[RobbyPants]

I still have to ask why 'spell levels you can cast' is not a suitable metric.

I have to agree.

Sinister: Well, Sorcerer does get kicked in the balls a little but I had a better reason that I frankly forgot because I take internet insult to heart so between crying from Kaelik's witty remarks and trying to tell my ass from a hole in the ground, I forgot it.

So I remark Spell Levels might be a good metric.

Yeah, it hurts sorcerers and other classes a bit. That could be fixed by either slowing the big three's progression to new spell levels at even-numbered levels, or by speeding up spontaneous casters to odd-numbered levels. It's not that hard to write up a new table to use.

[Kaelik]

Would it do any particular harm if a character's caster level was always equal to their hitdice? Regardless of what class configuration they happen to pick?

Yes. It would render all spells subject to spell resistance completely useless after level 10.

[koz]

Kaelik - spell resistance is a very stupid mechanic to begin with. Additionally, this does not prohibit anyone from writing abilities that reduce the SR of targets of your spells.

As far as GoA's proposal on /tg/ goes, it's full of retards who don't understand just how fundamentally the spell system needs to be rewritten. Burning hands is a zero-level spell. Fireball deserves no slot above 1st level. Spell schools have basically no meaning. A lot of spells just don't work at all like they should. Anyone who wants to actually create sensible [Metamagic] feats first needs to address these problems, on the class and system end. If you try to build on a shittily-constructed set of mechanics, you end up with shitty results.

[Kaelik]

Kaelik - spell resistance is a very stupid mechanic to begin with. Additionally, this does not prohibit anyone from writing abilities that reduce the SR of targets of your spells.

As far as GoA's proposal on /tg/ goes, it's full of retards who don't understand just how fundamentally the spell system needs to be rewritten. Burning hands is a zero-level spell. Fireball deserves no slot above 1st level. Spell schools have basically no meaning. A lot of spells just don't work at all like they should. Anyone who wants to actually create sensible [Metamagic] feats first needs to address these problems, on the class and system end. If you try to build on a shittily-constructed set of mechanics, you end up with shitty results.

1) Spell Resistance is not a shitty mechanic, it's actually a very good mechanic, and the fact that I can write "This item grants the effects of +1 to all CL check, allows all spells you cast to be treated as if cast at +1 CL." Doesn't mean it's not easier to write "This item grants +1 CL."

And there is literally no reason why increases to CL are bad things.

You want mages to be able to get better durations, better chances to penetrate SR, better effects on their spells, and better resistance against dispels or better dispelling. These are things that mages should be able to invest resources in. And even and especially for only some spells and not others.

CL does this. It does it well. So what exactly does preventing CL from being variable within a level or between schools give you?

Oh yeah, GoA wants to base his feats on a CL that cannot be increased because he's too stupid to write "Character Level"

2) Even if Spell Resistance were a shitty mechanic. It is still an existing one.

3) You are wrong, You can easily create sensible metamagic feats without revamping the entire spell system. The spell system is not that bad, schools don't always make 100% sense? Who cares, they make about 90% sense. Some spells are ass? Yeah, lots of spells are ass, so are lots of classes, the fact that Burning hands is ass doesn't affect anyone any more than the fact that Soulknife is ass. You just play without using them, or if you really care, you make a better one.

[koz]

Kaelik, when you learn some basic reading comprehension, not to mention some basic non-bullshitness, I'll put you back off ignore. For now, fucking stay there, and suck a barrel of cocks while you're at it.

[Kaelik]

Sinister, when you gain a brain, I still won't care.

1) You said spell resistance is a shitty mechanic. You had literally zero support for that assertion. You are wrong.

2) You said that anyone attempting to make metamagic feats without first fixing your favorite problems with spells is bound to shitty results. You are wrong.

3) You implied that it's okay for CL to be fixed at character level because one of the problems I pointed out "spell resistance effectively becomes spell immunity" was solvable by just replacing all +X CLs with -X to spell resistance. A) That's not an argument for doing something. B) That doesn't solve all the problems, only one. And so therefore, you are wrong.

[God_of_Awesome]

You know, I did say character levels afterwards.

Well, I said character levels in casting classes.

[CatharzGodfoot]

[quote="Mister_Sinister"Anyone who wants to actually create sensible [Metamagic] feats first needs to address these problems, on the class and system end. If you try to build on a shittily-constructed set of mechanics, you end up with shitty results.[/quote]

That's completely untrue, and in fact goes against pretty much all the work that has been done on the tomes. The words you should be thinking are "principle of least effort".

[Red_Rob]

Multicasters and sorcerers suck at a class level, not a concept level. If you want to solve this problem, it's better to solve it by writing classes that don't suck and allow you to carry those concepts. Then, [Metamagic] feats that scale could work equally well for everyone.

Oh, and while you're at it, you can also put spells at the levels where they belong. Such as fireball at level 1.

I agree. At lower levels the scaling damage means Fireball wouldn't overpower anything. Hell, 1 or 2 dice of damage over a 20' area doesn't even compare to sleep.

If you're going to relevel all the spells you might as well strip it right back. D&D Magic could work like the HERO system - a stripped down list of powers that scale to your level. So you boil down the spell list to "Attack Spell" "Buff Spell" "Skill Spell" "Summon spell" and then have an effect that scales to the level of the spell you are casting. You add the flavour, like a fireball or giant grasping hand on top. You can then apply modifiers to the spell, reducing or increasing its effect to add things like "deals nonstandard damage (i.e. sonic)" or "Allows a Fortitude save". This way prepared casters would have to set their spells up when learned, whilst a Sorceror could customise the spells to suit the circumstances - targetting weak saves or enemy vulnerabilities for example. The extra versatility would give spontaneous casters an advantage that prepared casters couldn't duplicate.

This way someone getting a single level in a casting class gets a level appropriate power. More levels gives you access to more powers.

I'm not entirely sure how to satisfactorily integrate this into a Vancian magic system though. I think being forced to use a variety of spells is one of D&D's strengths and is what makes casters fun to play. "I cast my best spell again" isn't much fun the tenth time around. Possibly each spell you have can only be cast so many times a day?

[maddd0g]

Multicasters and sorcerers suck at a class level, not a concept level. If you want to solve this problem, it's better to solve it by writing classes that don't suck and allow you to carry those concepts. Then, [Metamagic] feats that scale could work equally well for everyone.

Oh, and while you're at it, you can also put spells at the levels where they belong. Such as fireball at level 1.

I agree. blahblahblahquote]

There is a 3.5e supplement book that wrote a spell system like you're proposing.. It's actually pretty good. (The major flaw is it is written on a spellpoint system, but the spells could easily just be transfered to vancian.)

On that note, and kinda off topic.. is there a viable and good alternative to vancian casting?

EDIT: It's called the Elements of Magic. PM me for more info. ;]