LotR gets filtered from D&D more with each edition.

[Lago PARANOIA]

One thing I don't get: Why wouldn't humans be racist xenophobes in D&D? They are in real life, and we know racism is wrong.

Because in the real world, racism and xenophobia for the longest time (and still now, in fact) enabled you to riches and powers. Remember, the whole 'nonwhites are inferior' thing became much more intense in Europe after people became convinced that they could win the Crusades and after the African slave trade kicked into high gear. People were more tolerant of other cultures beforehand back when they had roughly equal status.

Moreover, when there's a common enemy to fight that requires people from the underclass to move up in status (like in wars), these things get tampered down on a lot. The Civil War and WWI were enormously helpful in increasing the status of black soldiers and managed to make headway, and these didn't even last very long. D&D more or less describes the world in a state of constant, total war.

In short, if you'll only get hard knocks for invading Moria or looking down on dwarves but you do need them (and they need you) for surpressing an elemental infestation you'll change your attitude pretty fast. If this state lasts for several decades then I imagine that after awhile you'll grow to like the dwarves.

[violence in the media]

First of all, you specifically just said "Because really, they're not any more dangerous than your average humans, so you expect that the guards can probably handle them."

And that undermines everything you ever said, because now you are specifically kicking out people that are stronger than you, including PCs, and you can shut your lying "only monstsers" crap.

Yeah, but PCs are humans.. so they are just as much of a risk as letting in any human or elf.

Don't you mean players are humans? PCs can be Genasi, Lizardmen, Orcs, Kobolds, Ghouls, Tieflings, Awakened Animals....

[Username17]

One thing I don't get: Why wouldn't humans be racist xenophobes in D&D? They are in real life, and we know racism is wrong.

I think having humans act so decidely unhuman would stretch my suspense of disbelief.

I don't think that anyone is saying that racism doesn't happen. Although the kinds of prejudice you'd get in a village that happened to live under the protection of a Storm Giant and an Abeil Hive while being menaced by Thri-Kreen and Frost Giant raiders would be pretty... interesting. Getting the rant from god old boys about how the yellow bugs were dedicated workers but those green bugs never worked an honest day in their life would be probably the most surreal thing about going from one town to another in D&D land.

If you thought it was weird how as you go West in Yugoslavia you see people talking about Orthodox Christians exactly the way they would talk about Catholics a few kilometers back... you ain't seen nothing yet. Try going from valley to valley where the local Gnomes are Rock Gnomes, Forest Gnomes, Whisper Gnomes, Svirfneblin, and Chaos Gnomes and watch the crazy racist shit the locals say about the party Deep Halfling.

Racialism has a tendency to be reductionist. If you have time to spare with a Neonazi sometime, ask them whether Dravidians are mongoloids, australoids, or negroids, and how they can tell. Obviously differet racists will give you different scema, because those categories aren't real. And fitting some system like that onto a world where there are literally hundreds of species of sapientpeople would be quite a sight. These guys don't have PCR, so honestly I don't see why they would assume that Ghostwise, Tallfellow, and Deep Halflings were the same species. The only reason why people think that Hobgoblins, Goblins, Bugbears, Nilbogs, Forestkith, and Varags are all related is because they have Maglubiyet, an actual living god, telling people that in so many words. If you just lined them up, you'd assume that Forestkith were closer related to Meazels and Hobgoblins closer related to Orcs.

So yeah. People are going to be racist, and that racism is going to be fucking bizarre. Dwarves can't interbreed with humans, so in some areas you're genuinely going to find people who think that anyone with a thick beard is "not human." Gnomes can't interbreed with halflings, or with pixies, so if you're a halfling subtype from far away, the halfling girls of the village will simply assume that you are another species.

But that simply opens up a new question: what the hell does anyone do when their own species is a minority of less than 5% in wherever they happen to be? According to Gygax, a number of people simply make racially segregated communities where they rely upon cousin-fucking to make the next generation and attempt to murder anyone who shows up. That's certainly a Darwinistically justifiable plan, but I remind you: That is the Kuo-Toa plan and it apparently has not worked out well for them.

---

Of course, the discussion of human ignorance crossed with a world in which every tavern and marketplace is a Cantina scene and you could meet a new species every day for a year and still not meet all the true breeding and distinct races of the kingdom, while interesting, is not really the point. The point is that FatR and RC were and are arguing that racism against species you cannot identify is "logical" in such a scenario. Not "inevitable" (a stand that requires mere cynicism), but logical.

And that, of course, is bullshit. As has been exhaustively shown from outcome analysis, harshing on someone because they happen to be unfamiliar and blue is even more fucking stupid in D&D-land than it is in our world.

Although interestingly, I did, in scouring the monster manual for this discussion find a piece of prejudice that would actually work: Smell. There are a number of races that smell like rotting meat, and almost all of them are totally fucking evil. Guardian Nagas seriously smell like flowers and candy, Spirit Nagas smell like carrion, and the seemingly unobjectionable Dark and Water Nagas don't smell like a god damned thing. Looks are completely useless, since of course to most humans the most hideous creatures of all would be elves - since they live almost entirely in the uncanny valley. But the stench of rotting meat is a shockingly good giveaway.

-Username17

[mean_liar]

If the discussion is only, "what to do if you can't identify it", then discussion is pretty dumb.

If you don't have anyone around to identify the Bizarre Thing, then you obviously don't have anyone around that can defend yourself from anything worth a damn either - you're defenseless.

At that point, yeah, you wouldn't attack because you're defenseless. You'd ask/beg it to move on, like the opening scene in Princess Monoke, but without the actually hurting it (because you can't).

But now you're not talking about societies or cities (since they almost assuredly do have residents that are tasked with identifying things), you're talking about isolated and marginal rural communities.

I'll agree that the descriptions are much better guidance than alignments, but even so, let's just look at orcs. According to the MM, they:

1. "...often kill elves and dwarves on sight."
2. "When not actually fighting other creatures, orcs are usually planning raids..."
3. "...they obey the rules of war (such as honoring a truce) only as long as it is convenient for them."
4. "They are constantly warring with or preparing to war with humanoids"
5. "Their deities teach them that... all worldly goods belong to the orcs, having been stolen by the others."
6. "The chief orc deity is Gruumsh, a one-eyed god who tolerates no sign of peaceability among his people."

But you think orcs are fine. I think this is because you're ascribing your own description to orcs that supercedes the MM one?

This is not the kind of person you want to let into the village without good reason (ie, he's my cousin).

[Kaelik]

First of all, you specifically just said "Because really, they're not any more dangerous than your average humans, so you expect that the guards can probably handle them."

And that undermines everything you ever said, because now you are specifically kicking out people that are stronger than you, including PCs, and you can shut your lying "only monstsers" crap.

Yeah, but PCs are humans.. so they are just as much of a risk as letting in any human or elf.

I apparently missed this retarded shit, but it is fucking hilarious.

1) PCs aren't humans.
2) PCs don't look like humans.
3) PCs are more of a risk than letting in any human and elf, because as we keep trying to explain to you through your racism, humans are bad in equal proportion to giant snakes. If you have 10 humans in a room, and ten giant talking snakes, then you have 5 evil bastards, 5 saints, and 10 guys who will kill you if you piss them off, but trade if you don't.

And to spell it out for you because you are a fucking racist, 2.5 of those evil bastards are humans.

[RandomCasualty2]

Of course, the discussion of human ignorance crossed with a world in which every tavern and marketplace is a Cantina scene and you could meet a new species every day for a year and still not meet all the true breeding and distinct races of the kingdom, while interesting, is not really the point. The point is that FatR and RC were and are arguing that racism against species you cannot identify is "logical" in such a scenario. Not "inevitable" (a stand that requires mere cynicism), but logical.

Yes, because it's about numbers. Thus far nobody has refuted the statement that if you take a sampling of random bestial monsters, that the odds are that most of them are going to be evil. The reason for that is that you can't refute that statement without outright lying.

So people bring up some bullshit about how we might be turning away one of the good creatures that may have one day saved our town, or that for some reason a human wearing a funny looking helmet doesn't look human anymore.

But that doesn't change the underlying fact that nobody can refute. Most of the time if you let a bestial looking creature into your town, you're letting in something evil, and it's going to fuck you over. And keeping those things out therefore is a very rational thing to do.

[schpeelah]

if you take a sampling of random bestial monsters, that the odds are that most of them are going to be evil

That's because if you take any random sampling of creatures, most of them are going to be evil. In a random sampling of non-monstrous creatures, the ratio of evil to non-evil is not going to deviate significantly from the monstrous version. This is simply not going to work.

[Username17]

But that doesn't change the underlying fact that nobody can refute. Most of the time if you let a bestial looking creature into your town, you're letting in something evil, and it's going to fuck you over.

No. We totally refute that. A majority of the creatures that are "beastial looking" (whatever the fuck that means) that ask to come into your town are not evil and a majority of them will not fuck you over. Seriously, to take you seriously, you'd need to actually produce some numbers. Until then, it's not a fact, it's just you making shit up.

I'll grant you the "scent of carrion" tell for kill-on-sniff monsters. But I totally refute your wild accusation backed up by no statistics at all that "beastial looking" is in any way a tell for monsters that voluntarily talk to the gate guards.

-Username17

[Psychic Robot]

Ogres, trolls, orcs, gnolls, kobolds, goblins, troglodytes, ettins, drow. All of these are "no goes" for human society.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Ogres, trolls, orcs, gnolls, kobolds, goblins, troglodytes, ettins, drow. All of these are "no goes" for human society.

Okay, so what if you had a goblin village? Do you think that goblins would kick out all of the above non-gobbo creatures (except for maybe the troglodytes) as well? If you say 'yes', you're nuts, because it's an incredibly common trope to have cities of 'evil' people have a bunch of races congregate together.

You know, the more I listen to people whine about how humans can't accept people who look like them, the more I believe that it's really humanity that's the problem.

[RandomCasualty2]

No. We totally refute that. A majority of the creatures that are "beastial looking" (whatever the fuck that means) that ask to come into your town are not evil and a majority of them will not fuck you over. Seriously, to take you seriously, you'd need to actually produce some numbers. Until then, it's not a fact, it's just you making shit up.

So you're telling me that there are more good-aligned monsters in the MMs than evil ones?

Is that seriously what you're saying?!

Do I really have to go and produce numbers to prove that statement? That's pretty much a self evident D&D fact. I mean I can go and do that, you know I can. But it'd be a waste of my time given that we both know what the answer is.

[God_of_Awesome]

This argument is stupid because if I were DM, I could just say "Well, everyone lives in peace."

[Username17]

No. We totally refute that. A majority of the creatures that are "beastial looking" (whatever the fuck that means) that ask to come into your town are not evil and a majority of them will not fuck you over. Seriously, to take you seriously, you'd need to actually produce some numbers. Until then, it's not a fact, it's just you making shit up.

So you're telling me that there are more good-aligned monsters in the MMs than evil ones?

Is that seriously what you're saying?!

The way you've defined "monster"? Yes.

A majority of the dangerous things that look inhuman either don't talk or teleport. A Mind Flayer will not ask to come in, because they will dimension hop instead. A Girallon will not ask to come in because they don't talk. Frankly, a Spirit Naga won't ask to come in either because they will apparently attack the guards on sight for being alive.

Do I really have to go and produce numbers to prove that statement?

Yes you do. Because you are totally wrong. There are more evil things than good things in the monster manual (though potentially not in the world, because the monster manual specifically goes out of its way to list monsters you might fight over ones that you won't - which is why there are more listed Devils than Archons). But the Good things all talk, and a lot of the bad things don't or don't need to in order to enter town.

Giant Eagles talk, and Wyverns don't.

I mean I can go and do that, you know I can. But it'd be a waste of my time given that we both know what the answer is.

Put up or shut up RC. You've been saying that you had the numbers for 5 pages of responses. Show us the numbers or shut the fuck up.

-Username17

[Psychic Robot]

Okay, so what if you had a goblin village? Do you think that goblins would kick out all of the above non-gobbo creatures (except for maybe the troglodytes) as well? If you say 'yes', you're nuts, because it's an incredibly common trope to have cities of 'evil' people have a bunch of races congregate together.

You know, the more I listen to people whine about how humans can't accept people who look like them, the more I believe that it's really humanity that's the problem.

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Presumably, goblins would work with ogres and orcs (or would be subjugated by them).

[Kaelik]

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Presumably, goblins would work with ogres and orcs (or would be subjugated by them).

Because all colored people are the same and all that matters is they aren't white, so they must all be best friends?

[Utterfail]

Wait. Let me get this straight. Humans, according to you, do totally fine being xenophobic because "C'mon man, they're humans. They've got like, adventurers and stuff to protect them from ogres and orcs!", but goblins (just as likely to have class levels kthx) get "subjugated by (ogres and orcs)".

Do you see where your logic fails? It's obvious xenophobic shit don't fly, even to you. Because you get subjigated by ogres. Ogres aren't even badass. You're just playing the "Humans are awesome card".

[TavishArtair]

I would figure the humans actually have bought into a protection racket from the Ancient Elven Civilization a few doors over, and so there's a general unwillingness to unnecessarily antagonize them. Low-level raiding goes on, though, because Not-Elrond can't be bothered dispatching his heralds just because your baby was taken by orcs, and Not-Galadriel is too busy scrying for Not-Sauron's next move, which is a real threat to take care of.

The goblins likewise are probably paying tribute to some dragon in the area who will, if a threat is sufficiently severe, rouse itself to eat the nuisances. Or maybe an orcish warlord. Who knows.

[Psychic Robot]

Please don't put words into my mouth.

Humans, according to you, do totally fine being xenophobic

I have never said that. I was speaking in response to

A majority of the creatures that are "beastial looking" (whatever the fuck that means) that ask to come into your town are not evil and a majority of them will not fuck you over.

The creatures I listed all qualify as "bestial" looking, and they all happen to be evil, and they will indeed try to kill, eat, and/or enslave you. (Well, technically, drow are just black elves, but their depicted attire generally leaves them in the "evil" box.)

Do you see where your logic fails? It's obvious xenophobic shit don't fly, even to you. Because you get subjigated by ogres. Ogres aren't even badass. You're just playing the "Humans are awesome card".

I never said this, but I will take a moment to address it:

The majority of the evil creatures that I listed--such as orcs and goblins and kobolds--all live in tribal societies or in small groups. They have no real collaboration. Humans, on the other hand, tend to get together, establish a government, and build cities. This allows them to have defensible structures and a large enough population that they can fight off any marauding trolls. And, when they can't fight off the monsters, low-level adventurers conveniently stop by to put an end to the raids.

Furthermore, this is assuming that the humans haven't allied with the non-bestial races (such as dwarves, elves, and gnomes). The people arguing against RC2 seem to be attempting to create this pathetic strawman where he's saying that cities are HUMANS ONLY, NO DORFS ALLOWED. To the contrary:

3. This isn't emphasizing single race towns. Human-like races are okay. Monstrous ones are not.

[Kaelik]

PR, RC is already trolling us with stupid. You can stop now.

1) ogres/goblins/orcs/trolls/hobos/bubears ect, none of those are bestial, at all, not even a little bit. They are in fact less bestial than the average dwarf. That's the fucking point.

2) None of those races are more likely to kill you and take your shit than any other race if you piss them off.

3) Kobolds are like elevendy billion times better at building fortifications than humans. If you pick eight random CR 10 monsters, and send them at a Kobold Hive and a human city, you end up with 10 dead human cities and 1 dead kobold hives and 8 CR 10 monsters that got bored of trying and failing to kill the kobolds. Goblins are right behind dwarves and a fuck ton ahead of humans in fortifications and organization.

[mean_liar]

Trolls are less beastial than dwarves? What the fuck?

The massive regenerating green thing that eats living flesh and "attacks unceasingly when hungry" who lives near settlements to "hunt the inhabitants until they devour each one" is more beastial than the short guys who are "serious, determined and very honorable"?

Bugbears "live by hunting creatures weaker than themselves" and are apparently "more aggressive" than the other goblinoids. They "never miss an opportunity to increase their hoards through theft, plunder, and ambush" and when game is scarce resort to "raiding to fill their stewpots" rather than say, trade. Or farm. Or sell out as mercenaries.

So if those two races aren't bestial, then what is a "bad" race? You're cool with the race that will systematically attempt to eat you, and the race that is more aggressive than the other goblinoids ( with their own unseemly descriptions), then your tolerance is fucked.

You can hate the things that hunt you. It's the good kind of discrimination.

I mean, neither race fucking farms. They hunt and eat exclusively, and apparently some seek out civilized villages as food sources. They actually ARE more likely to murder you simply because they don't eat bread.

[Psychic Robot]

PR, RC is already trolling us with stupid. You can stop now.

1) ogres/goblins/orcs/trolls/hobos/bubears ect, none of those are bestial, at all, not even a little bit. They are in fact less bestial than the average dwarf. That's the fucking point.

Ogre: giants who eat people.
Goblins: little green savages who eat people.
Trolls: green giants who eat people and have huge claws.
Bugbears: hairy beastmen who may or may not eat people.

2) None of those races are more likely to kill you and take your shit than any other race if you piss them off.

All the races I listed have "usually [adjective] evil" for their alignment. So, yes, they are more likely to kill you.

3) Kobolds are like elevendy billion times better at building fortifications than humans. If you pick eight random CR 10 monsters, and send them at a Kobold Hive and a human city, you end up with 10 dead human cities and 1 dead kobold hives and 8 CR 10 monsters that got bored of trying and failing to kill the kobolds. Goblins are right behind dwarves and a fuck ton ahead of humans in fortifications and organization.

Kobolds have lots of traps. Traps do not allow them to take a human city. Traps allow kobolds to defend their homes.

[Username17]

Goblins: little green savages who eat people.

Whether they are homophagic or not is totally irrelevant. You listed them and Drow as being beastial looking. They are not. Drow are sexy like Jessica Beale and if you were to cast a Drow Priestess for a D&D movie today you'd try to get Selita Ebanks or Damaris Lewis for the role. Goblins are not super hairy (except for the Forestkith). They don't look any more beastial than Deep Halflings. They have sharp teeth, but they don't have any crazy animalistic features. It's a "little humanoid with a flat face, broad nose, pointed ears, and small sharp fangs." (MM, page 133) Compare to Forest Gnomes who have moss colored skin. Or Dwarves, who have more hair than a Bugbear on a smaller frame.

Leaving aside your claims that the completely fucking random list you pulled out of your ass is representative of creatures that shouldn't be allowed in town (despite the fact that both Goblins and Orcs are apparently "in town" according to their own monster descriptions), the fact remains that your claim that these guys are all somehow more "beastial" than forest gnomes or dwarves or wild elves is in many cases not true.

-Username17

[TavishArtair]

I think a presupposition on one side that is not shared by the other, in this argument, is that the farmer has read the Monster Manual, and thus knows that all the evil humanoids are well, evil, and the good humanoids are good.

The problem with this assumption that the "farmer is ignorant" side is trying to point is that sometimes a say, "furry/grassy little woodland tribesman" for instance, could be either a gnome, or a goblin, an ewok, or a gibberling, and you can't really tell until you get some basic interaction in with them. Likewise, some tall, green people are green jungle giants and some are green storm giants and some are green-skinned Celestials and some of them were green-skinned Celestials once but are now green-skinned Fiends, amongst other numerous possibilities. And a being of radiant fire could as easily be a type of archon as an efreet.

The other side is pointing out that well, eventually the farmers will figure out what everything is by interacting with them, or by being told so by the village elders. Which is good in the case that they can actually sort one from another (it is unlikely you will confuse a troll and a storm giant, even though both are green and large). So yes, it's reasonable to assume that in a lot of cases a farmer will know what he's likely to encounter and know whether to start running or to talk to you. But that only works if the farmer has some foreknowledge of what you are.

If you're a stranger and not from around these parts, there's no guarantee that pissing you off won't mean angering some errant godling, causing him to be reduced to dust by a single green ray. Because some creatures have "instant death at will" on their spell like abilities list, and there's no guarantee the encounter they're having is level appropriate.

So being polite is still winning on the "general guideline" measure.

[Koumei]

PR, RC is already trolling us with stupid. You can stop now.

All evidence suggests that he actually can't.

[Psychic Robot]

Whether they are homophagic or not is totally irrelevant. You listed them and Drow as being beastial looking. They are not. Drow are sexy like Jessica Beale and if you were to cast a Drow Priestess for a D&D movie today you'd try to get Selita Ebanks or Damaris Lewis for the role. Goblins are not super hairy (except for the Forestkith). They don't look any more beastial than Deep Halflings. They have sharp teeth, but they don't have any crazy animalistic features. It's a "little humanoid with a flat face, broad nose, pointed ears, and small sharp fangs." (MM, page 133) Compare to Forest Gnomes who have moss colored skin. Or Dwarves, who have more hair than a Bugbear on a smaller frame.

(Well, technically, drow are just black elves, but their depicted attire generally leaves them in the "evil" box.)