Lago's Kickass D&D-Book Marketing Strategy!

[Username17]

There is no perfect place to be in the war between specific and general abilities. The fact is that knowing what you can and can't do is good, but being able to creatively do something to advance your position in a specific situation is good too. Being told that you can't do something that it seems like your character could do is bad, but having too many options to think through is bad too. Games like d20 or GURPS try to be all things to all people and fail. Games like 4e D&D and Everway try to shoehorn all people into playing the "one true way" and they fail too.

The idea of explicit power cards is not a bad one, though the way 4e handles it is, like everything else they do, pretty awful. The design criteria should be something like:

• A player needs to have enough cards that they can ever use to be interesting in the long run. Substantially more than the five or so cards that a character gets in 4e.
• At any given moment, a player needs to be dealing with no more options than they can keep track of. Science tells us that this number is between 4 and 8.
• A power's flavor text, name, and picture (if any) should not imply that it can't do something that it can do nor should it imply that it can do something that it cannot do. The game needs to be playable by people who don't know what any of the numbers mean.

There are various ways to achieve those goals, but they are certainly achievable goals. If you wanted to go the power cards route, you could just do that.

-Username17

[Lago PARANOIA]

I'm increasingly becoming a fan of Winds of Fate (the Green Arrow version, not the tiered effect version) for this very reason, because it gives players a large amount of potential options without overwhelming them all at once with choices.

Of course, WoF meets another important design goal, too, but in terms of providing options without overwhelming players it's the bee's knees.

[Crissa]

Haven't we had the conversation that on average, people are less creative with less details than with more?

We're not dealing with us. Of course we can come up with grand uses for things that aren't described but given results. But the average person needs and wants some suggestions of how this might be.

Of course, I certainly would love a game that could divorce some of the flavor text - so that when you release a core book, it could be technically al the same stuff as the last core book, but the flavor text is for the Kingdom of ThisCampaignSettingOrOther instead of Greyhawk.

-Crissa

[Username17]

I'm increasingly becoming a fan of Winds of Fate (the Green Arrow version, not the tiered effect version) for this very reason, because it gives players a large amount of potential options without overwhelming them all at once with choices.

Of course, WoF meets another important design goal, too, but in terms of providing options without overwhelming players it's the bee's knees.

Certainly, if you share Greg Bilsland's design goals of having powerful abilities that players worried about whether to use them now or later, but still used them often enough for them to be iconic for that character, then a WoF system coupled to a charge casting system is rather obvious. Neither the 4e Daily power nor the 4e Encounter power do the things that Greg Bilsland wants. But if you gave someone a limited number of super move uses per turn and randomly rolled which super move was an option next turn, you would see people worry about whether to use a fairly appropriate super move this turn or wait until the most appropriate super move was available. But people would always be using their super moves in battles.

But then, if you actually had the Skill Challenge design goals, simply making the skill challenges limited by rounds rather than total successes/failures and then counting only the hits and not the misses would by itself solve most of the issues.

I'm actually weirded out at the degree to which the 4e designers seem unwilling or unable to use lateral thinking to solve their basic design and development problems.

-Username17

[Doom]

. But if you gave someone a limited number of super move uses per turn and randomly rolled which super move was an option next turn, you would see people worry about whether to use a fairly appropriate super move this turn or wait until the most appropriate super move was available. But people would always be using their super moves in battles.
.-Username17

This is what I heard that Metamorphosis Alpha would have, and I think it would be an awesome way for the 4e system to like, actually work.

More accurately, MA has players getting their powers randomly, instead of l33tly minmaxing and dumpsterdiving for them, but your version might be better for 4e, and a little less jarring.

"This round, I have the opportunity to trip that one guy and make him fall back 15'" is just alot easier to swallow than "I can trip that guy and make him fall back 15' once a day, only once, but I can pick that one tme whenever I want."

I'm thinking each at-will available on a 4-6, encounters on a 5-6, and dailies at a 6 (with powers dropping when used, for the encounter or for the day). Man, the thought of what this would do for the game is amazing.

Right now, my players always seem to end the day with a dozen dailies...everyone holds back everything, then somebody gets low on one thing, so it's rest time.

Ok, maybe it wouldn't work...but wow, it's not exactly fixing something not broken here. If nothing else, I might try this for an epic-level adventure.

(This is where I'd start raning about this level 17-20 WotC adventure I just purchased...but another time)

[Lago PARANOIA]

Doom314, Winds of Fate meets three overlapping but very different design criteria.

The first one is to take the pressure off of the 15-minute workday. WoF certainly doesn't eliminate it (there are other resource pools) but it makes it easier to convince PCs not to sleep in the middle of the dungeon.

The second one is the mix up a PC's moves. 4E's 'Five Moves of Doom' method towards using encounter and At-Wills are BORING. 3E's isn't much better, TBH. Regardless, WoF forces PCs to mix up their moves and tactics and creates a less staid after-action report.

The third one is to help player characters narrow down their choices. For a lot of people, having a huge number of choices is terrifying. If you gave a new person to the game a 17th level D&D cleric and told them to prepare their spell list you're going to have someone paralyzed by the wealth of options--both in-combat and out-of-combat. But this also allows you to have the avoid the reverse situation, where people only have like 2 to 4 things to do in combat. With Winds of Fate, a player new to the game can have dozens of moves in their deck while only having to worry about 2-4 of them at a time.

[Doom]

Guess I'll look for it in the ol' hobby shop then. Truth be told, I've been fondling RuneWars an awful lot lately. Even though I don't really need another box o' plastic toys, game looks fun.

[Lago PARANOIA]

In my opinion, the next edition of D&D should only use two die:

The d20 and the d6. The d20 gets to be used for 'swingy' rolls that also need to be quick (such as attack rolls and soak throws) while the Xd6 can be used for rolls that benefit from bell curves and less from extrema such as skill checks and saving throws.

D&D 5E should just not use the d4, d6, d8, d10, and d12. They're badly shoehorned into the game out of a sense of nostalgia and make it hard to control outputs for a tweak to the input (such as damage rolls).

[Smeelbo]

In my opinion, the next edition of D&D should only use two die:

The d20 and the d6. The d20 gets to be used for 'swingy' rolls that also need to be quick (such as attack rolls and soak throws) while the Xd6 can be used for rolls that benefit from bell curves and less from extrema such as skill checks and saving throws.

D&D 5E should just not use the d4, d6, d8, d10, and d12. They're badly shoehorned into the game out of a sense of nostalgia and make it hard to control outputs for a tweak to the input (such as damage rolls).

Please God, no.

In the last year, our store sold about $7,000 worth of dice, mostly Poly 7 sets. They have good margin, and I often sell them to people who don't buy books, but play nonetheless.

This is in a store that focuses on CCGs far more than RPGs.

With low margins and low sales on books, I rely on dice to make a profit from role players.

I did play Warlock, the oldest published D&D variant, from 1976-1984ish, and, being developed by MIT/Cal-Tech, used only D20 and D6s, and it was pretty good for a first generation RPG. And funny dice are a barrier to entry for new RPGers.

But I need to sell dice!

Smeelbo

[souran]

As a person who likes 4e:

I would like to see a 5e where "daily powers" are gone and are instead "1 per encounter powers", at will powers need to be more flexible - sort of like what happens when a players get a number of the fighting style feats. Encounter powers need to have an in encounter recharge/refresh mechanism and need to be more varried, and utility powers should be minor actions / interupts / or immediate actions mostly. That way you could use them on enemy turns.

So basically in combat you have three resource pots to go to

At will / 1 use only (with ability to refresh) / 1 per encounter

Rituals get there cast times set to a varing number of rounds or minutes based on the partiuclar spell in question. Also, rituals no longer cost money they intead use healing surges.

Players should be able to use healing surges as a sort of adventurer fuel. You should be able to burn a healing surge to get or force an immediate reroll of any individual die roll.

Traps / out of combat events / non combat encounters should target healing surges directly. No player should be able to get permanent healing without SOMEBODY using a healing surge.

The power sources need to be more like magic the gather color types or even better like a warhammer army with its own special rules and something that it does to make its powers play a little more unique.

Feats need to expand the options for your existing abilties. The fighting style feats should represent what a "normal" feat looks like. No feat should just grant a +X to anything.

Fix the damage math, fix the AC vs. attack bonus scaling, toss racial ability modifiers out the door. Races should be defined by the racial power they give players. That means that crappy racial powers for the core races need to be interesting.

Thats what I keep thinking should be changed to make 4e better.

[Lago PARANOIA]

If the people who own the license to the next edition of Dungeons and Dragons are also the people who own the IP for Magic: The Gathering I can't think of any reason why the game shouldn't go out of their way to combine the two thematic elements as much as they can without pissing the grognards off.

Like Frank mentioned downthread, this means making the new 5E M:tG campaign setting the official one. This also probably means making some Magic the Gathering themed cards iconics and also importing a bunch of cards into the power system.

[Username17]

The work on the Magic side is even basically done. Humanoid cards have character classes.

Not just any character classes - Dungeons and Dragons Character Classes! So you just pull out a theme book every time you publish a new block. Duh! When Zendikar comes out, you make a Zendikar book. It has a bunch of powers for various classes that let you specifically be a Skyknight or whatever. Also you have a couple of playable races that are in Zendikar like the Kor and the Vampires. And mostly you have a whole fuck tonne of full sized pictures of various crazy shit in Zendikar with some excited rambling about the locations and the adventures you can have there. he Zendikar book might sell more copies than the PHB, because most of it would be a ice fan wank for Magic Players. And most of it is free, because you're writing and drawing this shit anyway. It's a lot like grabbing notes off the desk to publish Worlds and Monsters. So you could offer it really cheap. And then do the same thing for Lorwyn. And the next block. And the one after that.

-Username17

[Zinegata]

Uh, Frank, it's been years since Magic introduced creatures with classes. Way before Zendikar.

It's just more blatantly obvious in Zendikar because Zendikar was literally designed, fluff-wise, to be a world full of adventurers. Hence the introduction of new mechanics like Quest cards and Level Up.

Moreover, in spite of the supposed synergy between MtG and D&D, the D&D guys don't seem to talk much to the MtG guys.

One specific example: MtG has an entire department that farms out card art. And it's done professionally - as in they have one guy whose only job is to describe the different pieces of card art they need, and to make sure the artwork depicting the same characters all remain consistent.

And yet D&D still doesn't seem to be tapping this resource. At all.

Honestly, it's a bit hard to tie MtG and D&D fluff. MtG fluff-wise is a magic system that is shared across many planes. Planes that have massively different cultures and even life forms (Lorwyn for instance had no humans). It'd be like turning all of D&D into Planescape.

[Smeelbo]

If I were evil, I would have Essential D&D be the "essence of D&D:" character development and combat framework of D&D, rather like the rules of Magic, then get into the business of selling powers (feat, class, race, items), rather like selling Magic expansions.

And then, for the RPGA, I'd have powers "age out" of the system, rather like Magic blocks in Type II Constructed, so I could always sell new blocks of powers, again, rather like Magic.

It would keep the character optimization boards in constant flux, rather like the Magic meta-game.

Smeelbo

[Zinegata]

... No.

What you're proposing is a tactical skirmish miniatures game, not an RPG game.

It'd be like Final Fantasy Tactics Advance. Played on a table. With WoTC judges issued with whistles

[TheWorid]

If I were evil, I would have Essential D&D be the "essence of D&D:" character development and combat framework of D&D, rather like the rules of Magic, then get into the business of selling powers (feat, class, race, items), rather like selling Magic expansions.

And then, for the RPGA, I'd have powers "age out" of the system, rather like Magic blocks in Type II Constructed, so I could always sell new blocks of powers, again, rather like Magic.

It would keep the character optimization boards in constant flux, rather like the Magic meta-game.

Smeelbo

You fiend!

[Mask_De_H]

If I were evil, I would have Essential D&D be the "essence of D&D:" character development and combat framework of D&D, rather like the rules of Magic, then get into the business of selling powers (feat, class, race, items), rather like selling Magic expansions.

And then, for the RPGA, I'd have powers "age out" of the system, rather like Magic blocks in Type II Constructed, so I could always sell new blocks of powers, again, rather like Magic.

It would keep the character optimization boards in constant flux, rather like the Magic meta-game.

Smeelbo

I think I want to hate you to death...

[Lokathor]

It'd be like turning all of D&D into Planescape.

Yes, I want this.

[Jilocasin]

It'd be like turning all of D&D into Planescape.

Yes, I want this.

Me too.

[Username17]

All of D&D is Planescape. Always has been, always will be. Whether or not any particular game offers the ability to travel from one world to another, every game is offered the ability to take place in its own world. Each DM can provide their own map, their own villains, their own gods. Because each and every gaming table is very possibly in a different plane of existence from every other. Even if you're all playing Eberron or Forgotten Realms, the fact is that the adventures at one table could kill off the Silver Flame or have Thay conquer Waterdeep and that wouldn't affect the other table at all.

So providing a new world you might want to play with that happens to come with killer art and a tie-in to the card game every year seems like a no-brainer. And indeed, what you could do is release your new world book at GenCon each year, coming as it does right before the new card block is released (new world block is released in September). People who didn't even play D&D but liked Magic would get the book for previews. People who liked D&D but didn't care about Magic would get it for the fact that it was a world book with a bunch of D&D powers and cool art.

And yeah, you'd have the RPGA do adventure arcs in each world. So with GenCon in 2010, you'd be releasing a Mirrodin worldbook and a set of adventures that took place in Mirrodin. And people couldn't use Forgotten Realms specific powers in the Mirrodin RPGA campaign arc. And the next year, you'd do a Shadowmoor worldbook and the RPGA would be Shadowmoor focused, and the Mirrodin class powers would expire save for those that were reprinted in Shadowmoor books.

And you'd have "Planeswalker" events where people could use powers and races from any world. But the main D&D Encounters progression would start each year in August with new books you had to buy. And you have the progression for each lead in to the rest of the block. So you release the Mirrodin Paragon stuff book in time for people to reach 11th level and before the February release of the second set of Scars of Mirrodin. And you have the Epic book released in time for people to get to 21st level and in time for people to get it to preview the May release of th final Mirrodin installment.

Three worldbooks a year, all tied to the same world you were running the current Magic block in. And a set of downloadable campaigns throughout the year that would tie into the world the Magic block was set in. And you'd make sure to have at least one adventure set in the "current" world in each issue of Dungeon you produced, which in turn would come with relevant (and different) preview art. And yeah, you'd fucking be releasing hard cover Dungeon magazines for cheap - so that children could get them.

Honestly, it's so obvious that I don't understand why we didn't get Zendikar last year and Alara the year before.

-Username17

[Zinegata]

Again, because the D&D guys don't talk to the Magic guys.

And the whole Planescape thing of Magic really started with Kamigawa, the weird Japanese themed set.

[endersdouble]

Again, because the D&D guys don't talk to the Magic guys.

And the whole Planescape thing of Magic really started with Kamigawa, the weird Japanese themed set.

...yeah, you haven't been playing Magic long, have you?

Sets up to Mirrodin focused on Dominaria, sure, but always talked about the existence of others, and several (Masques block, Tempest block) had our favorite Dominarians spend time in others.

[Username17]

Of the first two expansions, Arabian Nights took place in, you guessed it, fantasy Arabia. Not Dominaria, which had not been written yet. The second expansion involved Phyrexia being an alternate plane of existence that you could visit.

-Username17

[Zinegata]

Again, because the D&D guys don't talk to the Magic guys.

And the whole Planescape thing of Magic really started with Kamigawa, the weird Japanese themed set.

...yeah, you haven't been playing Magic long, have you?

Sets up to Mirrodin focused on Dominaria, sure, but always talked about the existence of others, and several (Masques block, Tempest block) had our favorite Dominarians spend time in others.

Other planes were mentioned or visited in earlier sets. The computer game was even set in an entirely different plane. But Kamigawa inaugurated the whole "visit a new world" thing.

Since Kamigawa, most sets haven't been set in Dominaria. Nor do they even feature characters from Dominaria. We've had Ravnica (new plane), Time Spiral/Cold Snap (Dominaria, but post-apocalyptic), Lorwyn (new plane), Alara (new plane), and Zendikar (new plane).

That's 5 out of 6 sets starting with Kamigawa. And it includes Japanese-land (Kamigawa), a world that is one huge city ala Eberron or Sigil (Ravnica), a fairy-tale like world with hobbits (Lorwyn), a bunch of cool sub-worlds that are part of one ecosystem (Alara), and a world of adventurers (Zendikar).

And the next set? It looks to go back to Mirrodin - another alternate plane.

(Well, okay, Mirrodin - the set prior to Kamigawa - was technically the first "whole new world" thing, but it was built by one of the heroes from the Dominaria arc. Plus the crazy combos in that set made it kinda bad)

[Zinegata]

Of the first two expansions, Arabian Nights took place in, you guessed it, fantasy Arabia. Not Dominaria, which had not been written yet. The second expansion involved Phyrexia being an alternate plane of existence that you could visit.

-Username17

Arabian Nights was also like, the last alternate plane set until Mirrodin.

Again, Kamigawa/Mirrodin were the first real exercise in world building outside of Dominaria. Sure, you could visit Phyrexia. But it was all subsumed into one massive Dominaria-centric arc. It's one thing to write about Hell from the perspective of Earth. It's another thing entirely to make a set that is focused on Hell itself.

If anything, Kamigawa actually brough back Garfield's original vision for the game. Garfield wanted to make more sets ala Arabian Nights, but the design teams that followed apparently went for putting everything into one huge mythic arc involving a boy and his flying ship.