Role Playing in Avatar.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:01 pm

I was making the assumption because there is literally a scene where she's debating using her healing because she's running low on the special water. I think it's the episode where Zuko is trying to get them to let him join, someone gets burned, and she just soothes the burn, rather than using the magic water to make it go away, because she might need it more later.

The Lunatic Fringe · Post by **The Lunatic Fringe** » Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:16 pm

Prak_Anima wrote:I was making the assumption because there is literally a scene where she's debating using her healing because she's running low on the special water. I think it's the episode where Zuko is trying to get them to let him join, someone gets burned, and she just soothes the burn, rather than using the magic water to make it go away, because she might need it more later.

Are you talking about the season 3 episode "The Western Air Temple"? She didn't even have spirit water by then.

The show wrote: Katara: "It's gonna take a while for your feet to get better. I wish I could have worked on them sooner."
Toph: "Yeah, me too."

In other words, healing is better when it happens sooner. Contrast this instance with the time that Katara healed her burns completely in season 1 (before there even was spirit water) just a short time after getting them.

Or maybe you were thinking of the end of season 2, where she debates using her special water to fix Zuko's scar? The reasoning there being that regular waterbending can't fix scar tissue (but could have healed the initial injury).

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Fri Jun 18, 2010 10:08 pm

Ok, so I saw the first season episode that shows she has some innate ability to heal (again, I never saw most of the first season before), but I know she does have spirit water at some point, so I just missed something.

Lokathor · Post by **Lokathor** » Fri Jun 18, 2010 11:57 pm

She gets the spirit water from the northern waterbenders. She uses the spirit water to heal Aang back from death after he gets shot by Azula. By the time that Zuko is going to join them she's out of it.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Sat Jun 19, 2010 12:00 am

Lokathor wrote:She gets the spirit water from the northern waterbenders. She uses the spirit water to heal Aang back from death after he gets shot by Azula. By the time that Zuko is going to join them she's out of it.

She had some quality time with Zuko and said she could probably fix the burn-scar on the side of his face, if she used her spirit-water (a gift from two very powerful spirits back at the end of Season 1)

Lokathor · Post by **Lokathor** » Sat Jun 19, 2010 12:08 am

yep, when she was locked underground with him, and then 10 minutes later Iroh and Aang saved them. Azula showed up, Zuko wavered and joined her, she shot Aang, and that's about the whole last half of that episode.

EDIT:
40 20 "The Crossroads of Destiny" Michael Dante DiMartino Aaron Ehasz December 1, 2006 (2006-12-01) 220
Azula and the Dai Li stage a coup d'état and all five major generals are captured at once. Katara and Zuko are both imprisoned, and she seems on the verge of winning his allegiance, but Aang arrives to liberate them before any progress can be made. Confronted by Azula as they escape, Zuko is torn between the compassion shown him by Aang and Katara, and the promises of reconciliation and re-instatement dangled by Azula. Zuko chooses the Fire Nation, and Aang is critically injured by Azula during the resulting battle despite having engaged the Avatar State; it is only Iroh's interference which allows Katara to escape with him. At the end of the episode, Aang and the gang escape on Appa, where Katara heals Aang using water from the Spirit Oasis, which she obtained at the beginning of Season Two. She is overjoyed when she sees him open his eyes. However, Ba Sing Se, the last bastion of Earth Kingdom resistance to the Fire Nation, has fallen, Iroh has been captured, and Zuko is returning home a hero.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avatar:_Th ... eason_2%29

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sat Jun 19, 2010 12:19 pm

As for healing magic, it has its own page on the Avatar Wiki. It is totally a thing that exists. There re also specifically some weird ass things in the Avatar world. There was a contest for kids to write in cool stuff for the Avatarverse and the winners got their character in the official comics. There are straight up "Shadowbenders" now. They are exactly as awesome as that sounds.

Anyway, a number of people have suggested using The Dresden Files as a base game mechanic. Why?

That's not just me being ornery, I genuinely want to know. I don't actually know how Dresden Files handles its sorcery, but FATE in general seems like a pretty bad fit for something like Avatar, where people are supposed to be matching kung fu against each other.

-Username17

Ryan_Singer · Post by **Ryan_Singer** » Mon Jun 21, 2010 1:10 am

A few things about the Dresden Files RPG system speak out for Avatar:

1. The mechanics for learning channeling and evocation specializations fit well with Aang learning the elements one by one over the course of the series, but also becoming more powerful with bending in general.

2. The mechanics for using Evocation/Channeling in game are an easy and useful way to describe bending. Every time a character bends, they are have 4 options: Attack, Block, Maneuver, or Counterspell. Failing either screws you up, or messes up the environment, bender's choice.

3. The amount of power you can bring to the table is based on your conviction skill, which represents strength of personality and belief in one's self, whereas the level of accuracy/control is represented by the discipline skill, which represents training, focus, etc. This strikes me as fitting the Avatar world of potential vs. training pretty well.

4. Non-benders can't do awesome things like take down an entire group of bad guys with an epic attack, but they can be pretty effective with weapons and martial arts, and their high fate-point refresh gives them plenty of fate points to take advantage of enemies aspects and the environment. At each level of play, non-bender's can be pretty effective, but are never a good one to one match against powerful benders.

5. The system is actually pretty detailed in allowing for interesting and involved abilities. The rules for mortal stunts allow for a great deal of variation outside of bending.

I'll put together character sheets for Aang and Sokka, to show the system a little bit. The character sheets only tell part of the story, though. The real strength of the system is how flexible the aspects system is. Being able to easily stat taking advantage of momentary or built-in weaknesses in the enemy or aspects of the environment is a huge part of what keeps play interesting, especially for non-benders.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Jun 21, 2010 12:10 pm

After looking up the Evocation walk through for Dresden Files, I'm still totally not seeing it.

Ryan_Singer wrote: 1. The mechanics for learning channeling and evocation specializations fit well with Aang learning the elements one by one over the course of the series, but also becoming more powerful with bending in general.

The Mechanics for Dresden Files magic learning appear to encourage people to trade power (refresh) for versatility (stunts, powers, or whatever). That's pretty much exactly the opposite of what Avatar characters do - where they learn new techniques and are then able to do more crazy and powerful stunts because they combine techniques on the fly.

If Avatar was FATE based, it clearly isn't using the Dresden Files Refresh system, because when Aang learns Energy Bending he obviously doesn't walk into the final battle with less Fate points because of it.

2. The mechanics for using Evocation/Channeling in game are an easy and useful way to describe bending. Every time a character bends, they are have 4 options: Attack, Block, Maneuver, or Counterspell. Failing either screws you up, or messes up the environment, bender's choice.

Nope. Not seeing it. Sure, Attack/Block/Maneuver/Counterspell is a vaguely acceptable set of divisions. Save for the fact that in Avatar Blocking and Countering is exactly the same thing. But Avatar characters don't suffer stress, drain, or backlash for using their powerful abilities. It's just obviously not the resource management system people are using.

3. The amount of power you can bring to the table is based on your conviction skill, which represents strength of personality and belief in one's self, whereas the level of accuracy/control is represented by the discipline skill, which represents training, focus, etc. This strikes me as fitting the Avatar world of potential vs. training pretty well.

This one is vaguely plausible. Some characters clearly have more mystical potential than others. But Katara doesn't have massive water bending powers she can't control accurately. She has a lot of potential, and with training she is able to do massively powerful shit. Honestly, it seems more like a mechanic like Qin, where having more magic juju and balance lets you pick up Chi Points faster by raising your skills.

4. Non-benders can't do awesome things like take down an entire group of bad guys with an epic attack, but they can be pretty effective with weapons and martial arts, and their high fate-point refresh gives them plenty of fate points to take advantage of enemies aspects and the environment. At each level of play, non-bender's can be pretty effective, but are never a good one to one match against powerful benders.

Again, the Fate Refresh rules are so thoroughly anti-Avatar that it's hard to really talk about that idea coherently. To line-fit that idea, you'd basically have to have Sokka playing co-DM by raining Fate points down on the game like rain. Unless you're going to make the claim that every fortunate break that ever happened to them happened because Sokka's player spend a Fate point, there's just no correlation between not being able to do awesome shit and having identifiable positive events occur. Even if we were using a Fate base, it still wouldn't make any sense to claim that Aang, Katara, and Toph got less fate points than Sokka or Suki.

I remain openly skeptical.

-Username17

Aktariel · Post by **Aktariel** » Mon Jun 21, 2010 6:13 pm

What system would you use for Avatar RPG-ing then, Frank?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Jun 21, 2010 6:31 pm

Aktariel wrote:What system would you use for Avatar RPG-ing then, Frank?

Good question. I don't think that there's a simple port unless you count Münchhausen. So whatever base system is going to undergo heavy modification. Fate3 is definitely on the short list, but it would need some sort of action card economy appended to it. And from what I can see, the unique intellectual directions of Dresden Files are all in the wrong direction. I'm also looking at Qin, but of course the entire "Chi" and "Breath of Life" point piles would have to be jettisoned in exchange for something else.

Fate's zone system is very good for Avatar. But the whole thing of tying combat effectiveness to social gaffes is not. Honestly, the basic skills and combat system isn't that important if you get the magic right, so it's entirely possible to use a lot of basic engines and statlines and have things still work.

The important part is the part where you draw a hand of potential maneuvers and if you are impeded or wounded, you draw a smaller hand. And characters whose hands are zeroed out in that manner have to surrender or flee. Whether people have a Strength Attribute or an Earth Aspect or whatever isn't actually that important.

-Username17

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Mon Jun 21, 2010 6:48 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:But the whole thing of tying combat effectiveness to social gaffes is not.

I don't know, if there is one thing that Avatar tells me, it's that the more competent at bending you get, the more bullshit retarded you are when dealing with other human beings.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Jun 21, 2010 8:02 pm

no, that's bullshit. It was bullshit when it came up in Avatar, and it was bullshit in Harry Potter, and it would be even more bullshit in an RPG.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Mon Jun 21, 2010 8:10 pm

Katara seems to do fine in social interaction, Iroh is awesome at the whole thing, and Sokka is mediocre (good with the ladies, bad at the leadership).

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Mon Jun 21, 2010 8:17 pm

Prak_Anima wrote:no, that's bullshit. It was bullshit when it came up in Avatar, and it was bullshit in Harry Potter, and it would be even more bullshit in an RPG.

Um? To be clear, I don't want it in my RPG. I am specifically making fun of Avatar for the fact that Aang literally never makes a correct decision in his fucking life.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Mon Jun 21, 2010 8:21 pm

virgileso wrote:Katara seems to do fine in social interaction, Iroh is awesome at the whole thing, and Sokka is mediocre (good with the ladies, bad at the leadership).

Yeah, I was thinking about making exception for waterbending because Katara is usually okay, and (Sokka... is not that powerful, so him being mediocre is just whatever) Iroh, I think just gets a pass because he doesn't use his power. And while I support his decisions in like nearly every case, it's still fucking retarded how stupid half of everyone is.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Jun 21, 2010 8:36 pm

Well Aang is a 12 year old buddhist-ish monk who grew up around just men. This explains a lot about his social awkwardness.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Mon Jun 21, 2010 8:37 pm

Just saying that the idea of bending power being inversely proportional to social grace doesn't really hold water. It doesn't even completely hold with Aang, looking at how he finally handled the feud at the Great Divide or how he won over the Fire Nation school kids. If you're talking about something other than good manners, which you seem to be implying, that's a very different rant.

Crissa · Post by **Crissa** » Mon Jun 21, 2010 9:30 pm

I would just have Sokka's benefits be thing like 'boomerang always comes back' and stuff. So he can't bend - he does manage to do things, even combat things, effectively enough to get screen time.

Although, 'bad jokes' I think is more of a player thing and less of a character class thing.

-Crissa

Mask_De_H · Post by **Mask_De_H** » Mon Jun 21, 2010 9:46 pm

Ryan_Singer wrote: 1. The mechanics for learning channeling and evocation specializations fit well with Aang learning the elements one by one over the course of the series, but also becoming more powerful with bending in general.

Frank wrote:The Mechanics for Dresden Files magic learning appear to encourage people to trade power (refresh) for versatility (stunts, powers, or whatever). That's pretty much exactly the opposite of what Avatar characters do - where they learn new techniques and are then able to do more crazy and powerful stunts because they combine techniques on the fly.

If Avatar was FATE based, it clearly isn't using the Dresden Files Refresh system, because when Aang learns Energy Bending he obviously doesn't walk into the final battle with less Fate points because of it.

Yeah, I really didn't like the way they handled refresh in DFRPG, or in LoA for that matter. Being more powerful should equal having more chances to if not dick with the narrative, at least take advantage of the tags you laid on somebody effectively. Spirit of the Century hacks tend to disregard that part, and just make Refresh a point buy system that allows you to keep your Fate Points.

2. The mechanics for using Evocation/Channeling in game are an easy and useful way to describe bending. Every time a character bends, they are have 4 options: Attack, Block, Maneuver, or Counterspell. Failing either screws you up, or messes up the environment, bender's choice.

Nope. Not seeing it. Sure, Attack/Block/Maneuver/Counterspell is a vaguely acceptable set of divisions. Save for the fact that in Avatar Blocking and Countering is exactly the same thing. But Avatar characters don't suffer stress, drain, or backlash for using their powerful abilities. It's just obviously not the resource management system people are using.

Agreed, that's a conceit of the Dresden Files system in an attempt to keep casters and non-casters playing the same game. Other FATE systems don't do that, at least for straight on attacking.

3. The amount of power you can bring to the table is based on your conviction skill, which represents strength of personality and belief in one's self, whereas the level of accuracy/control is represented by the discipline skill, which represents training, focus, etc. This strikes me as fitting the Avatar world of potential vs. training pretty well.

This one is vaguely plausible. Some characters clearly have more mystical potential than others. But Katara doesn't have massive water bending powers she can't control accurately. She has a lot of potential, and with training she is able to do massively powerful shit. Honestly, it seems more like a mechanic like Qin, where having more magic juju and balance lets you pick up Chi Points faster by raising your skills.

Again, agreed and again, a conceit of the Dresden Files. Other FATE systems just make it a single skill, LoA separates magic into building block skills. The Qin idea is interesting, but just separating Fate Points from magic juju skills could work well too.

4. Non-benders can't do awesome things like take down an entire group of bad guys with an epic attack, but they can be pretty effective with weapons and martial arts, and their high fate-point refresh gives them plenty of fate points to take advantage of enemies aspects and the environment. At each level of play, non-bender's can be pretty effective, but are never a good one to one match against powerful benders.

Again, the Fate Refresh rules are so thoroughly anti-Avatar that it's hard to really talk about that idea coherently. To line-fit that idea, you'd basically have to have Sokka playing co-DM by raining Fate points down on the game like rain. Unless you're going to make the claim that every fortunate break that ever happened to them happened because Sokka's player spend a Fate point, there's just no correlation between not being able to do awesome shit and having identifiable positive events occur. Even if we were using a Fate base, it still wouldn't make any sense to claim that Aang, Katara, and Toph got less fate points than Sokka or Suki.

And that's the tricky bit. Fate Points are used for taking the DM seat for a spell, getting a reroll, boosting some power, or taking advantage of tags. Uncoupling magical juju from the Fate Point economy might work, so everybody could get some creative autonomy by chucking points at the DM like a bukkake model, and the DM coming right back with compels and Fate point expenditures of his own, turning the game into Munchhausen/Chicken. I don't really know what Ryan is on about, as straight up mortals don't really get nice things in DFRPG, extra fate points or no. It's actually the worst game in the FATE system for playing a wide berth of characters at high level in my opinion. Diaspora might be better to get the system across, it's just that DF's Evocation is vaguely loose enough to be good for bending, as long as you decouple it from the things that make it Dresden Files-y.

I remain openly skeptical.

-Username17

And I provide hopeful optimism towards assaying your skepticism.

Mask_De_H · Post by **Mask_De_H** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 12:12 am

Double postan gaems: just watched some Avatar (Avatar Day), and at least in the second season, Sokka is making it rain Fate Points. He uses his goofy Sherlock Sokka outfit to not die (hat takes a flaming arrow), and take out two enemies ( spyglass adds "blinded" aspect to archer, invokes it to have the shot miss, then uses spin and a fate point to declare the shot nails the other guy's bomb pouch. He then pulls a manuver, tagging "bubble pipe" to put out arrow #2, allowing Aang to get the assist.)

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 1:13 am

Mask_De_H wrote:Double postan gaems: just watched some Avatar (Avatar Day), and at least in the second season, Sokka is making it rain Fate Points. He uses his goofy Sherlock Sokka outfit to not die (hat takes a flaming arrow), and take out two enemies ( spyglass adds "blinded" aspect to archer, invokes it to have the shot miss, then uses spin and a fate point to declare the shot nails the other guy's bomb pouch. He then pulls a manuver, tagging "bubble pipe" to put out arrow #2, allowing Aang to get the assist.)

Yeah, and that's like, the most fate points he's spent at one time ever.

Of course as a literary character, sokka looks like he has all the luck, but duh, that's because there are only two times you see him, when he's losing, and when he's getting lucky because he doesn't have the skill to compete. So... unless he's actively in the process of losing, which can only happen a few times in a story arc where he keeps living, he's going to look lucky.

But not any luckier than anyone else, it just looks that way because their luck comes in the form or lucky moon rises that makes them personally look like a badass.

Mask_De_H · Post by **Mask_De_H** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:14 am

No shit Kaelik, literary conventions are going to make a character seem lucky. FATE tries to ape literary conventions as a general rule, thus, one can say that the Fate Point economy is keeping him in the game when he isn't a TAXTICUL JENIUS~! Hell, I'm watching Sokka's Master right now and the start of the episode is Sokka feeling small in the pants because he doesn't have awesome fucking powers without literary convience: ie Fate Point expenditure.

This isn't getting a system cranked out, so agree to disagree?

Aktariel · Post by **Aktariel** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 5:52 am

I suppose one could argue that non-bending characters in Avatar are simply bending reality around themselves to induce a favorable outcome. Hell, if you looked at it like that, you might even be able to include it in the system - except it would feel shitty and out of place.

Teela Brown was always a killjoy anyway.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:10 am

Mask_De_H wrote:No shit Kaelik, literary conventions are going to make a character seem lucky. FATE tries to ape literary conventions as a general rule, thus, one can say that the Fate Point economy is keeping him in the game when he isn't a TAXTICUL JENIUS~!

Uh... WTF?

Yes, it's a literary convention. That has nothing to do with my point, which is that bullshit literary conventions like that one don't belong in a fucking RPG and are made of terrible failure.