Reconciling the massive failures of 'good' gods.

[CCarter]

Well there's always the Wrath of the Immortals D&D approach: the gods want to produce more gods (from promising mortals), so no interfering in human affairs so that mortals don't become "pets" and no more promising candidates arise.

Other than that, re. steam engines and germ theory of disease - can these be assumed to actually apply in a fantasy setting? Potentially D&D Tech could be the limit to what actually works in the D&D universe's physical laws.

[Ganbare Gincun]

Can't we just get rid of the gods altogether? I mean, it's all fine and dandy to have extremely powerful people and things *pretending* to be gods and to have people worshiping them Thulsa Doom style, but why not deep-six the usual pantheistic crap? Just have all of the gods be frauds that are powerful enough to demand or inspire worship from the dirt farmers, but don't make them so powerful as to keep themselves from getting kicked in the teeth by adventurers.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

The problem with that is there's no such thing as being so powerful that your teeth won't get kicked in by adventurers.

For the homebrew I use, Gods are a combination of people personifying natural phenomena (which are not considered sentient but can be coaxed with the proper spells and rituals), notable ancestors (which may come back and help their descendants if properly pacated), or very powerful beings (There is a being called Dagon at the bottom of the ocean. He's powerful, but neither omnipotent nor omniscient)

All of these beings are seen as powerful, but the idea of an all-powerful being that knows everything is foreign. The spirit of the great Mountain might be very wise about things that happened on the mountain, but not about anything else. Ancestors knew what they knew in life. Dagon might know all sorts of things, but again he doesn't know everything and isn't likely to help anyone that isn't a Kuo-toa.

[RobbyPants]

Other than that, re. steam engines and germ theory of disease - can these be assumed to actually apply in a fantasy setting? Potentially D&D Tech could be the limit to what actually works in the D&D universe's physical laws.

I think you'd be hard pressed to come up with a compelling reason why either boiling water doesn't make steam or why steam is incapable of turning a turbine.

I can see why trying to keep things simple might make the game more fun, but as soon as you say "it doesn't work" to something simple like a steam engine, it ruins immersion.

[Grek]

Can't we just get rid of the gods altogether? I mean, it's all fine and dandy to have extremely powerful people and things *pretending* to be gods and to have people worshiping them Thulsa Doom style, but why not deep-six the usual pantheistic crap? Just have all of the gods be frauds that are powerful enough to demand or inspire worship from the dirt farmers, but don't make them so powerful as to keep themselves from getting kicked in the teeth by adventurers.

This means that any religious characters are boned as soon as they find out that their "God" is actually a dude with a funny hat.

[RobbyPants]

How would re reconcile the no-gods approach with divine casters? There are no divine casters? Divine casters think they get their power from their patron, but they're really just Wis-based sorcerers?

[Blicero]

How would re reconcile the no-gods approach with divine casters? There are no divine casters? Divine casters think they get their power from their patron, but they're really just Wis-based sorcerers?

I'd be totally cool with that (seeing as it's already what I more or less do in my games). "Priest" is really just a type of profession, rather than a specific class that gives specific abilities. The same could even be true for druids. You could have wizard priests, fighter priests, rogue priests, etc.

I took it one step farther and made every spellcaster the style of the Warmage and Beguiler-a very specific and thematic spell list. All magic is arcane magic (or sorcery as I call it).

[A Man In Black]

How would re reconcile the no-gods approach with divine casters? There are no divine casters? Divine casters think they get their power from their patron, but they're really just Wis-based sorcerers?

You-the-player don't have to reconcile it at all. It's just a metaphysic of the game world, and the why behind it isn't anything anyone in the setting can know for sure, so the players are free to speculate without doing any harm to the game world.

In the world, all you need is a rationalization for believers of each religion to explain why heathens and crazy people are able to cast divine spells. Taking Eberron as an example, religions either believe in gods-with-many-masks (believers in the Sovereign Host, which is implied to have assimilated religions and cults and possibly be a synthetic pantheon anyway), self-actualization/basically-wis-based-sorcery (Blood of Vol), or... you know, I'm kind of vague on why Flame-believers rationalize crazy clerics.

[RobbyPants]

Ok. That's sort of what I was hinting at with the second idea. You just leave the mechanics alone and don't worry about explaining it. Each individual in that world would have their own explanation.

[Orca]

... you know, I'm kind of vague on why Flame-believers rationalize crazy clerics.

The Silver Flame contains the trapped demon lord as well; one heresy of their doctrine says that its voice can be heard and mistaken for the good guys.

[A Man In Black]

The Silver Flame contains the trapped demon lord as well; one heresy of their doctrine says that its voice can be heard and mistaken for the good guys.

But that doesn't rationalize why crazy people get divine power. Silver Flame-ites don't believe that there's no god but the Flame; they believe in converting everyone who isn't evil to worship of the Silver Flame (and setting evil people on fire), so that the other gods cease to be and the world is perfect etc.

[Blicero]

But that doesn't rationalize why crazy people get divine power. Silver Flame-ites don't believe that there's no god but the Flame; they believe in converting everyone who isn't evil to worship of the Silver Flame (and setting evil people on fire), so that the other gods cease to be and the world is perfect etc.

I guess it's just because, in Eberron, divine magic can come from pretty much anything. Witness that whole kalashtar religion, or elven clerics. Crazy clerics, assuming they have the innate talents (high wisdom score) and drive to succeed (ability to gain levels), can justify their actions as being for "The Greater Good" even as they're having crusades against all lycanthropes or whatever. They view their actions as being appropriate to their personal vision of the Flame; therefore, they are still essentially clerics of the Flame.

[CCarter]

I think you'd be hard pressed to come up with a compelling reason why either boiling water doesn't make steam or why steam is incapable of turning a turbine.

I can see why trying to keep things simple might make the game more fun, but as soon as you say "it doesn't work" to something simple like a steam engine, it ruins immersion.

Well, giants stay up in spite of the square/cube law, so gravity must be weaker, even though the planet is the same size (and most of the crust is made of gold). To balance the weaker gravitational constant the strong nuclear force is more powerful, so you end up with accidental cold fusion occurring if you hit 350 degrees.

Either that, or its a bitch when the fire elementals get loose.

[Username17]

Fantasy worlds tend to be really small. The big continent in the Forgotten Realms is not the size of Eurasia, it's the size of the United States. The smaller continents are smaller than that. Toril has the equatorial Great Sea and the arctic Great Glacier just two thousand miles apart. Assuming the planet is a sphere, it's probably about 10,000 miles around.

-Username17

[Wyzzard]

I think you'd be hard pressed to come up with a compelling reason why either boiling water doesn't make steam or why steam is incapable of turning a turbine.

I can see why trying to keep things simple might make the game more fun, but as soon as you say "it doesn't work" to something simple like a steam engine, it ruins immersion.

You could do the Arcanum approach and say the presence of magic fucks up the laws of physics.
That way noone would bother building a nuclear powerplant just to have some random wizard walk by and cause the whole thing to implode.

It'd probably just cause even more headaches though.

This means that any religious characters are boned as soon as they find out that their "God" is actually a dude with a funny hat.

Well, DnD gods are already just dudes with funny hats, just more powerful than your average adventurer.
But to most people, the difference between Pelor, a solar and a level 20 wizard is probably fairly academic. You could posit that: "Any sufficiently powerful being is indistinguishable from a god".
Real world non-deists have worshipped plenty of non-omnipotent gods. As long as they still get spells and can still have faith in their idol's ideals, would clerics really care?


Also, you're talking about religious people. If you showed them their god was just a man behind a curtain, they'd probably shut their eyes and call you a liar.

[RobbyPants]

Good point. I guess if you can say "there are 15 foot tall people who can walk without impediment", then you can equally easily say "turbines don't work".

This is why I don't like mixing science and D&D other than for laughs.

[schpeelah]

I recall someone on WotC boards a couple years ago posting a map showing how you can fit all the continents from FR, Greyhawk, Eberron and one or two other settings onto a sphere the size of Earth. IIRC it missed the goal very narrowly.

[RiotGearEpsilon]

Fantasy worlds tend to be really small. The big continent in the Forgotten Realms is not the size of Eurasia, it's the size of the United States. The smaller continents are smaller than that. Toril has the equatorial Great Sea and the arctic Great Glacier just two thousand miles apart. Assuming the planet is a sphere, it's probably about 10,000 miles around.

A notable exception is Creation in Exalted, which has a surface area close to that of Earth and a habitable surface area like 4 times larger.

[RandomCasualty2]

But that doesn't rationalize why crazy people get divine power. Silver Flame-ites don't believe that there's no god but the Flame; they believe in converting everyone who isn't evil to worship of the Silver Flame (and setting evil people on fire), so that the other gods cease to be and the world is perfect etc.

Basically Eberron is about your belief, meaning that if you're crazy and deluded you may have a stronger belief in something than a sane person. None of the Eberron gods are real gods in the D&D sense. They don't choose to give people spells. It's all an internal belief thing.

You can basically worship or believe in *anything at all*, so long as you believe hard enough. That actually gives the insane guy an edge. In fact, most of the Eberron faiths are just based on delusions anyway.

Pretty much in Eberron, having some crazy delusion about divine entities giving you power is enough to actually create power out of nothing. Why bother studying all those years to be a wizard when you can simply be insane and get magic anyway?

[Blicero]

I recall someone on WotC boards a couple years ago posting a map showing how you can fit all the continents from FR, Greyhawk, Eberron and one or two other settings onto a sphere the size of Earth. IIRC it missed the goal very narrowly.

But, on the Earth, 71% of the surface is covered by water. Did that map also include space for all the oceans?

I'm willing to concede that many D&D worlds are much smaller than ours, but I suspect that map is less than totally reliable for proving a point.

[FatR]

My own model I currently use:

1)Both the total power of gods and ways in which they can apply it to the Material Plane is limited. In particular, if they want to go and wreck evil's shit there personally, they must incarnate themselves in mortal avatars, which don't even get that much of power boost, compared to mere mortals. If they appear there directly and in their full glory, disasters relevant to the god's portfolio will happen across the world, so they won't do so, unless the alternative is pretty much apocalypse. They also depend on mortals - both worship and powerful souls coming to their domains - for much, although not all, of their power.

2)They do teach mortals good stuff. Except, they cannot go and mass-imprint knowledge and skills in mortal brains due to #1. Neither they can (or want to, due to being, well, good) micro-manage mortal societies through direct terror/mindfuck. Most of the time, they are limited to spreading knowledge and teaching beneficial ethics through clerics, although at key points they try to have an avatar or several on hand for direct input. They can provide relatively potent wide-area blessings, but only through a covenant with the local society/rulers.
Still, the standards of living at the lands where they social engineering bore fruit are pretty high, often higher than in the most of our world. (Because magic, when directed for the benefit of society is a potent force.)

3)They tend to think long-term. Stuff like a civlization based on burning fossil fuels, that can provide higher standards of living for a few centuries, before catastrophically collapsing due to lack of resources, simply does not interest them much. Their grand goal for the mortal world is a magical utopia that is stable and indefinitely self-sustaining. They don't have a recipe for it. Well, they have magical recipes that reasonably can produce a post-scarcity society - assuming the presence of truly massive amounts of mortal magical mojo, required to kickstart the thing - but they have no recipes for a social order that cannot be corrupted and brought down by flaws of the people, so historical examples of such societies in the setting eventually screwed themsevels up due to short-sightedness, dickery, its creators becoming bored or oppressive or whatever. Their biggest success in my setting was the ancient elf civilization, which became completely indolent, self-absorbed and reliant on magic they can't replicate anymore, since spellcaster badasses, who built it, had died out or lost interest at baby-sitting them.

[Username17]

I recall someone on WotC boards a couple years ago posting a map showing how you can fit all the continents from FR, Greyhawk, Eberron and one or two other settings onto a sphere the size of Earth. IIRC it missed the goal very narrowly.

But, on the Earth, 71% of the surface is covered by water. Did that map also include space for all the oceans?

I'm willing to concede that many D&D worlds are much smaller than ours, but I suspect that map is less than totally reliable for proving a point.

Actually, yeah it did. All of Forgotten Realms, and I do mean all of it - including Kara Tur and Mazteca are less total land area than North America. The other game worlds are mostly even more underwhelming. Athas is smaller than Australia. The "continent" of Ansalon in Krynn is about a thousand miles across. Seriously the entire Dragonlance thing takes place in an area that is smaller than Alaska.

The map in question is here:

Dragon Lance is that leeetle speck attached to the antarctic.

-Username17

[A Man In Black]

Basically Eberron is about your belief, meaning that if you're crazy and deluded you may have a stronger belief in something than a sane person. None of the Eberron gods are real gods in the D&D sense. They don't choose to give people spells. It's all an internal belief thing.

You can basically worship or believe in *anything at all*, so long as you believe hard enough. That actually gives the insane guy an edge. In fact, most of the Eberron faiths are just based on delusions anyway.

Pretty much in Eberron, having some crazy delusion about divine entities giving you power is enough to actually create power out of nothing. Why bother studying all those years to be a wizard when you can simply be insane and get magic anyway?

"You can basically worship or believe in *anything at all*, so long as you believe hard enough" is pretty close to what the Blood of Vol believe in anyway

The dominant belief includes multiple gods that exist just to dick around with people. Nobody's beliefs are challenged when a person who believes their dog is talking to them casts spells; the Traveler randomly empowers people to mess with the status quo, the Fury and the Mockery have hobo serial killers as part of their portfolio, etc. It's perfectly reasonable to believe that clerics are powered by impersonal metaphysics and that gods don't exist, just as it's perfectly reasonable to believe that the metaphysics are directed forces. This is true for both people who live in Khorvaire as it is for players of those characters.

The benefit of distant-gods-maybe for a setting is that out-of-character range of belief mirrors in-character range of belief. If the players know for certain that gods walk around the setting messing with people, then it's hard to play a character who believes in some alternate explanation. However, if you set up the setting where players don't know anything more about the metaphysics of the setting than they do about the metaphysics of the real world, religious belief (or disbelief) is easier to roleplay because it's closer to the players' real-life experience.

[Lago PARANOIA]

The reason why fantasy worlds are so small is because, well, it's fucking based off of the realities of 'real world', pre-Industrial Revolution. Travel is difficult, long, and dangerous. Unless you have the gods giving you really detailed maps most of the world outside your bubble is completely foreign to you. Like, you look at a map detailing the empires of Alexander the Great or Charlemange and you realize that the areas involved are just not very large.


The problem with that is that heroic fantasy settings also often want people to have a wide variety of locales to travel without it being a year-long round trip. So they have to shrink the map. Though sometimes it becomes utterly ridiculous like in Dragonlance.

[RandomCasualty2]

The reason why fantasy worlds are so small is because, well, it's fucking based off of the realities of 'real world', pre-Industrial Revolution. Travel is difficult, long, and dangerous. Unless you have the gods giving you really detailed maps most of the world outside your bubble is completely foreign to you. Like, you look at a map detailing the empires of Alexander the Great or Charlemange and you realize that the areas involved are just not very large.


The problem with that is that heroic fantasy settings also often want people to have a wide variety of locales to travel without it being a year-long round trip. So they have to shrink the map. Though sometimes it becomes utterly ridiculous like in Dragonlance.

It's not so much small as it is densely packed and this is mostly to make things interesting.

You have Arabian cultures, asian cultures and new fantasy cultures mixed in on most fantasy worlds. But what they avoid is simply having strings of cities that are "Another city of nation X" with no real details. Every city tends to have something special about it. Eberron is especially notorious for that, in that it honestly doesn't seem to have enough cities that would really make trade very plentiful in the first place.