Shadowrun: Star Wars edition.

[Psychic Robot]

Is it possible the 2nd most powerful person in the Galactic Empire has some really nice armour, or the best armour in the fucking galaxy, I'd say it's damned certain.

Would this defeat the entire purpose of him being extraordinarily powerful with the Force? I'm not even a Star Wars fanboy and you just made me headdesk.

[Kaelik]

Juton, if you want to reject all star wars cannon and claim that because it never occured on screen, stormtroopers are all retards wearing armor for no reason, you can, but don't expect me to give you much credit.

The physics of Stormtrooper Armor is explained. It works by diffusing heat. It does give them more staying power than unarmored people against blasters.

(And yes, it does protect against ewok arrows, if by protect, you mean, turns it into a small rock that doesn't pierce anything. If you wanted it to magically decelerate the rock first, tough luck.)

[Juton]

Is it possible the 2nd most powerful person in the Galactic Empire has some really nice armour, or the best armour in the fucking galaxy, I'd say it's damned certain.

Would this defeat the entire purpose of him being extraordinarily powerful with the Force? I'm not even a Star Wars fanboy and you just made me headdesk.

]

It's like an expert Pilot using an autopilot to land. It doesn't mean the Pilot is lazy or unskilled, it just may be something convenient to have if you'd rather have your attention elsewhere.

Juton, if you want to reject all star wars cannon and claim that because it never occured on screen, stormtroopers are all retards wearing armor for no reason, you can, but don't expect me to give you much credit.

The physics of Stormtrooper Armor is explained. It works by diffusing heat. It does give them more staying power than unarmored people against blasters.

(And yes, it does protect against ewok arrows, if by protect, you mean, turns it into a small rock that doesn't pierce anything. If you wanted it to magically decelerate the rock first, tough luck.)

Look, to me the Star Wars canon is the movies, I have no interest in the novels or comics, I like the games but don't pay that much attention to them. I will only comment on what I've seen in the movies. If there are some interesting scenes in the books where armour is a life saver that's important to know, was it storm trooper armour or something special like the mandalorian armour Boba Fett wears. If armour makes a difference in the books or comics, then it's smart to wear armour, but if it never seems to help then why not wear a magic stone of laser repellent?

It's part of the film canon that an Ewok arrow can puncture storm trooper armour. If you want to say that was defective armour or a lucky shot, that's reasonable. I'm including a link showing the scene in the film, but as a word of caution it's from a site that is trying to prove 'Star Trek could beat Star Wars' so you'll want to ignore all the text and just look at the pictures half way down. http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWtrooparmor.html.

[Silent Wayfarer]

Considering blaster bolts hit like grenades (one shot in ANH apparently took a torso-sized chunk out of starship-exhaust-proof walls), it may be that it's impractical to field armor which actually CAN stop a blaster bolt, since it'll be heavy, expensive, or encumbering as fuck. It's like modern body armor; the light, flexible stuff used in civilian or low-combat applications can't stop rounds from military rifles, and the armor which can stop hits from those weighs a lot and mainly serves to convert your injuries from a sucking chest wound to heavy bruising and maybe a broken bone or two.

Ergo, putting stormtroopers in blast-deflective armor is better than making them the waddling tanks that they'd have to be completely stop being shot. Mind you, I haven't seen the movies in ages; I could be wrong about this.

[TheFlatline]

2) Vader was using the force to absorb the energy and distribute it evenly across his entire body. Armor didn't really help.

You're also forgetting that Vader's hand is mechanical. It gets shot, he takes it off, plugs in a new one, and he's good to go.

Now for the *real* grognard, I need to go back and see if the shot he takes in the hand is the same hand that gets chopped off and proven to be electronic.

I actually think from memory both instances are his right hand. If so, the bit about the force doesn't even matter. He just lets the hand take the shot because it's not a big deal, it's machine.

[TheFlatline]

Considering blaster bolts hit like grenades (one shot in ANH apparently took a torso-sized chunk out of starship-exhaust-proof walls), it may be that it's impractical to field armor which actually CAN stop a blaster bolt, since it'll be heavy, expensive, or encumbering as fuck. It's like modern body armor; the light, flexible stuff used in civilian or low-combat applications can't stop rounds from military rifles, and the armor which can stop hits from those weighs a lot and mainly serves to convert your injuries from a sucking chest wound to heavy bruising and maybe a broken bone or two.

Ergo, putting stormtroopers in blast-deflective armor is better than making them the waddling tanks that they'd have to be completely stop being shot. Mind you, I haven't seen the movies in ages; I could be wrong about this.

You're probably right. Modern armor doesn't do fuck-all for a clean shot with a military rifle unless it's either particularly heavy or under certain conditions.

Getting back to the idea of the shadowrun system running star wars, I have no problem with armor. Let it soak a moderate amount of damage. However, most armor seems to be pretty bulky ablative armor, and I'd nerf the f*ck out of your dodge ability in armor. Then I'd probably allow the reaction + dodge as a standard defense (and reaction + dodge + dodge for a full dodge) as compensation.

Then, you could have individual suits of armor, like boba fett's , grant extra reaction/dodge/agility from the gizmos built into the suit.

Oh, and for the record, lightsabers ignore armor. And fucking cortosis weave is incredibly rare and brittle like it was originally in the novels. It's not a panacea against lightsabers.

[K]

Armor tends to be good at preventing some kinds of attacks, and bad at preventing others. I mean, chainmail is great when someone is shooting arrows at you and doesn't do dick when someone tries to smash your head in with a club. Kevlar is great vs bullets, and bad vs arrows or knives.

By the same token, you can have some armor be good vs blasters, but bad vs arrows and being punched in the face by plucky heroes. Stormtrooper armor, for example.

[RandomCasualty2]

Considering blaster bolts hit like grenades (one shot in ANH apparently took a torso-sized chunk out of starship-exhaust-proof walls),

Blasters are notoriously varied in the damage they deal. While it does indeed put holes in walls, a blaster hitting Leia's arm in Return of the Jedi barely seems to do any noticeable damage, and she's not wearing armor of any kind.

[FatR]

Stormtrooper armor is kind of silly, though, given that it is stated in some EU media that it isn't designed to resist direct blaster hits; it's more a high-tech survival suit that doubles as protection from some concussive attacks. If you ask me, designing armor that can't repel fire from the most common weapons used by modern civilization is completely stupid, but this is the kind of thing EU writers have to work with.

The problem is, blasters are just too powerful. Cutting through a few centimeters of solid metal was repeatedly shown to be no problem to even the lightest handheld versions. Everyone who gets worse than grazed by a blaster shot pretty much dies instantly (yes, when Leia was hit in RotJ, the shot only grazed the upper part of her shoulder - no "entry hole", just singed clothing). And sometimes even shrapnel from a nearby impact is sufficient to drop an unarmored man. And personal-scale forcefield generators are presumably too costly/unwieldy for issuing them to common troopers.

This is of course a problem for an RPG: you need to think about how you are going to faithfully model exreme lethality of blasters (and lightsabers) without making characters die left and right.

[FatR]

It's part of the film canon that an Ewok arrow can puncture storm trooper armour. If you want to say that was defective armour or a lucky shot, that's reasonable. I'm including a link showing the scene in the film, but as a word of caution it's from a site that is trying to prove 'Star Trek could beat Star Wars' so you'll want to ignore all the text and just look at the pictures half way down. http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWtrooparmor.html.

On that picture the arrow pretty clearly hits not the armor plate, but the resin-like substance between helmet and backpack. (Also, while not relevant to this particular picture, it should be noted, that Ewoks, however goofy they look, are really fucking strong, as evidenced by them easily lugging droids and whatever around.)

Also, the author of that page is full of shit (irrespectively of who can beat whom).

[RandomCasualty2]

This is of course a problem for an RPG: you need to think about how you are going to faithfully model exreme lethality of blasters (and lightsabers) without making characters die left and right.

Honestly they seem about as lethal as any other weapon, guns or swords. When Conan stabs a mook, he dies. When Luke shoots a mook with a blaster, he dies. When Conan stabs at a major foe, it's a grazing blow and he may just do a non-lethal cut. When Luke fights Vader, he lands grazing blows or lost limbs, and not instant death strikes.

The only time it really becomes important to model the lethality of a blaster versus other weapons is when other weapons actually exist. But really I haven't seen anything use gunpowder in star wars, so a blaster pistol can be just as deadly as an Ares Predator and you can just call it a day.

[Kaelik]

Look, to me the Star Wars canon is the movies, I have no interest in the novels or comics, I like the games but don't pay that much attention to them. I will only comment on what I've seen in the movies. If there are some interesting scenes in the books where armour is a life saver that's important to know, was it storm trooper armour or something special like the mandalorian armour Boba Fett wears. If armour makes a difference in the books or comics, then it's smart to wear armour, but if it never seems to help then why not wear a magic stone of laser repellent?

Right, and like I said, you can certainly claim that official star wars cannon is a bunch of lies, I just won't listen to anything you have to say.

Yes, armor in general often proves effective.

Besker/Lamian/Vondum Crab are all practically speaking infinitely resistant to blaster bolts, but made of stuff it's hard for people to get in large quantities.

But even basic white storm trooper armor regularly diffuses blasts from handheld pistols and rifles enough to allow them to keep on fighting.

It's part of the film canon that an Ewok arrow can puncture storm trooper armour. If you want to say that was defective armour or a lucky shot, that's reasonable. I'm including a link showing the scene in the film, but as a word of caution it's from a site that is trying to prove 'Star Trek could beat Star Wars' so you'll want to ignore all the text and just look at the pictures half way down. http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWtrooparmor.html.

The black stretch suit is not the white plastic polymer.

[Silent Wayfarer]

Stormtrooper armor is kind of silly, though, given that it is stated in some EU media that it isn't designed to resist direct blaster hits; it's more a high-tech survival suit that doubles as protection from some concussive attacks. If you ask me, designing armor that can't repel fire from the most common weapons used by modern civilization is completely stupid, but this is the kind of thing EU writers have to work with.

The problem is, blasters are just too powerful. Cutting through a few centimeters of solid metal was repeatedly shown to be no problem to even the lightest handheld versions. Everyone who gets worse than grazed by a blaster shot pretty much dies instantly (yes, when Leia was hit in RotJ, the shot only grazed the upper part of her shoulder - no "entry hole", just singed clothing). And sometimes even shrapnel from a nearby impact is sufficient to drop an unarmored man. And personal-scale forcefield generators are presumably too costly/unwieldy for issuing them to common troopers.

This is of course a problem for an RPG: you need to think about how you are going to faithfully model exreme lethality of blasters (and lightsabers) without making characters die left and right.

Blasters are actually quite potent in SW revised. Most of them do 2d6-3dx damage - you can drop PC-grade opposition in one or two shots with that kind of firepower.

Considering blaster bolts hit like grenades (one shot in ANH apparently took a torso-sized chunk out of starship-exhaust-proof walls),

Blasters are notoriously varied in the damage they deal. While it does indeed put holes in walls, a blaster hitting Leia's arm in Return of the Jedi barely seems to do any noticeable damage, and she's not wearing armor of any kind.

There's different kinds of blasters too - Han Solo's DL-44 was supposed to be the rough equivalent of a Magnum .44.

Personally, I think Leia was wearing the strongest armor of all, plot armor.

[Hieronymous Rex]

The only time it really becomes important to model the lethality of a blaster versus other weapons is when other weapons actually exist. But really I haven't seen anything use gunpowder in star wars, so a blaster pistol can be just as deadly as an Ares Predator and you can just call it a day.

Oh, look at this.

[Crissa]

It's more heroic to give your armor to a mook.

-Crissa

[Danchild]

I tried to incorperate some cyberpunk elements into a Star Wars game. Mainly the tech, espionage and cyberware. I used the SW d20 heavily houseruled and incorperating a lot of errata and optional rules. Brought in some stuff from D20 modern and D20 future. It went well but there was a major imbalance between the Force users and the non Force users.

Basically it came down to the Force Adept and Jedi being great in combat, but nearly useless in any other situation. The Force Adept could at least attempt to mind fuck people though. The Tech on the other hand was doing his best interpretation of a Replicator/Borg progenator. Making droids and then having those droids make other droids and clone their programming into the new chassis. That gave the Tech access to a versatile supply of credits, skills and knowledge. The Scoundrel on the other hand was busy exploiting the Gambling and Diplomacy skills.

Needless to say the game fell apart. I would have been better off just running the WEG version of the game instead of trying to make it work for a D20 system. Unfortunately, that system also has a divide between Force/Non-Force users.

[Kaelik]

2) Vader was using the force to absorb the energy and distribute it evenly across his entire body. Armor didn't really help.

You're also forgetting that Vader's hand is mechanical. It gets shot, he takes it off, plugs in a new one, and he's good to go.

Now for the *real* grognard, I need to go back and see if the shot he takes in the hand is the same hand that gets chopped off and proven to be electronic.

I actually think from memory both instances are his right hand. If so, the bit about the force doesn't even matter. He just lets the hand take the shot because it's not a big deal, it's machine.

No, I'm not forgetting that it's mechanical. But when they make a big damn point of mentioning specific force traditions that pass in the blood, and that Anakin Skywalker was known for having, unlike most jedi, the ability to absorb blaster bolts with his skin, without having to deflect them, hey maybe he uses the force to do that instead of damaging really expensive equipment that could easily be avoided.

[A Man In Black]

This is also another obstacle in a Star Wars game. More people are going to be interested in a game that resembles the Star Wars fiction they're familiar with, while the most enthusiastic people are generally going to be interested in a game which reflects Star Wars canon.

It's not impossible to make a game that takes the first, impressionistic approach to a licensed game; the new DC Comics RPG uses the M&M3e rules instead of trying to make a game where Superman can lift exactly the same amount as he can in DC character guides, etc. And it's not like it's a strict on/off switch; while SAGA is pretty much on the latter, mechanistic side of the line, there are impressionistic takes, like how while technology does get better in SW canon, numbers stay the same and old tech just gets a penalty.

[TheFlatline]

No, I'm not forgetting that it's mechanical. But when they make a big damn point of mentioning specific force traditions that pass in the blood, and that Anakin Skywalker was known for having, unlike most jedi, the ability to absorb blaster bolts with his skin, without having to deflect them, hey maybe he uses the force to do that instead of damaging really expensive equipment that could easily be avoided.

Nowhere in the movies do they say that Anakin has the unique ability to absorb blaster bolts with the force. In fact, right up until he becomes Vader, he pretty much always uses his lightsaber to deflect blasters.

But it illustrates a problem. Sooner or later you're going to have some idiot somewhere write something that fuckerates the Star Wars setting and makes it inconsistent. You simply *can't* create a game that encompasses all of Star Wars, including the shitty fiction. You need to figure out where you're cutting the line off. Otherwise cortosis is the most common element in the galaxy and is used by everyone to make lightsabers seem like whiffle bats (in Force Unleashed they seriously said that STORMTROOPERS were outfitted with cortosis armor), you have jedi that essentially can't lose except by Author Fiat, and you have wildly inconsistent power levels throughout all of it.

Just reflecting the movies gives enough problems. Dragging the EU into it is a shit idea. You'll never achieve balance AND accurately reflect the material.

[TheFlatline]

like how while technology does get better in SW canon, numbers stay the same and old tech just gets a penalty.

At least from what we see in the movies, tech *doesn't* get better. The empire is pushing the galaxy into a new dark age.

At least, 20 years ago that's what Lucas said. Who the fuck knows right now what he's decided will make him the most money saying.

[Kaelik]

Nowhere in the movies do they say that Anakin has the unique ability to absorb blaster bolts with the force. In fact, right up until he becomes Vader, he pretty much always uses his lightsaber to deflect blasters.

No, it doesn't say that in the movies. Did I say it was in the movies? I said it's mentioned that Anakin Skywalker was capable of sucking in energy and that this trait passes in the bloodline. Hey, I wonder if that second fact comes up because Luke Skywalker learns how to do it?

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Which novel was that? I'm way behind on my Star Wars readings.

[Kaelik]

Which novel was that? I'm way behind on my Star Wars readings.

Well, it probably came up before then when Luke first started doing it, so probably in an X wing book I haven't read, but it also is talked about every time Corran Horn is mentioned, and especially in I, Jedi.

[souran]

I guess that depends on how much of a Star Wars purist you are. I don't know what is or isn't considered canonical outside of the good trilogy, but I'd try to base my game off of that rather than videogames or a cartoon where Mace Windu single-handedly destroyed an entire army of robots. No offense, I liked the Clone Wars animated series, but they gave Jedi a massive, ridiculous power-up. The Force used to be more philosophical, and at this point it's just about FUCK YEAH THAT WAS SWEET. As evidenced by The Force Unleashed taking the Force to Jean Grey levels.

Starwars, like D&D, is so many different things to so many different people that one rpg could never do it justice.

A lot of people really liked the old old starwars game by westend games where basically jedi were punished for existing and the rule was "nobody gets to be a jedi dammit!"

On the other hand, LOTS of people like jedi. Not only do they like jedi, they like them alot.

Seriously, Jedi are the MODEL for all other Gish characters, and honestly, a lot of people would like to play a "jedi" regardless of what rpg they actually are at that moment playing. So of course in the Land of the Gish the Gish have a power level of over 9000! and thats the way it should be.

[souran]

But it illustrates a problem. Sooner or later you're going to have some idiot somewhere write something that fuckerates the Star Wars setting and makes it inconsistent. You simply *can't* create a game that encompasses all of Star Wars, including the shitty fiction. You need to figure out where you're cutting the line off. Otherwise cortosis is the most common element in the galaxy and is used by everyone to make lightsabers seem like whiffle bats (in Force Unleashed they seriously said that STORMTROOPERS were outfitted with cortosis armor), you have jedi that essentially can't lose except by Author Fiat, and you have wildly inconsistent power levels throughout all of it.

Actually, there already IS a system that does this. Star Wars already has an "Official System" for Catologueing what is "Cannon" and what isn't.

Not only that but it actually a tiered system allowing you to get further and further away from cannon and still be "Star Wars" As I remember all the stuff that Wizards ever produced is Logged as "G" level cannon. This means that excepting where it would conflict with a "more authorativtive level of cannon" that every:

Object/vehiciles/devices/gadgets and "equipment" said to exist either exists or has existed at some time. Its particular workings are considered NON CANNON but its existance is considered cannon.

Characters, time lines, planets, places have their existance considerred cannon (except wherein it would be contradicted by higher cannon authority or as it pertains to any "principal" character [i.e. anybody whose name is skywalker, or other characters in the movies]). There stories, actions, personalities, game traits, abilities, and motivation are considered non cannon.

That is at least the cool thing about star wars, it COMES with a system for defining cannonicity and you can let your players/game master (regardless of system) determine how "true" they want their game to be (although note that as a game its Non Cannon level according to the rating system regardless.)