Why is Greater Magic Weapon both a 3rd level spell and a 4th

[Username17]

The Fighter/Mage theory doesn't really pan out in D&D, but that's a completely separate issue.

The issue here is between primary casters. A Sorcerer really only has one top flight schtick. If his top flight trick is identical to someone else's second or third string maneuver - that means that he sucks in a very palpable and provable fashion.

He's literally setting his entire character on fire in order to be good at magic. That magic must be as good as people of his level can use. Not "as good as your Rogue Cohort's Cleric Cohort's magic" but in fact good on his own terms.

This really is one of those game balance concepts where it's extremely easy to prove the point. If B = A + 1 then A =/= B. And that's fvcked.

-Username17

[User3]

Actually, if all spells were scaled entirely to character level (NOT class level), rather than spell level (which was the original point of spell levels, which are now honestly not necessary), then you could give anyone whatever abilities you wanted at any time, because they would all automatically be level-appropriate.

Like, at level one, you would have your magic missile or cure wounds, and by character level 3 it would be as good as our current level 2 equivalents (both should probably be about +2d6 per character level, but that's another issue). You would also get access to invisibility or fly or whatever is appropriate for your class to have at that point.

But because we have this bizarre system of "spell levels" where spells scale twice relative to character level, everything is just totally fvcked.

[RandomCasualty]

1171267166[/unixtime]]

He's literally setting his entire character on fire in order to be good at magic. That magic must be as good as people of his level can use. Not "as good as your Rogue Cohort's Cleric Cohort's magic" but in fact good on his own terms.

Now, as the sorcerer is written, I agree that any choice he makes needs to be level appropriate because he's devoting permanent slots of spells known to do it.

But lets not use the sorcerer, lets use the cleric. He is also a primary caster and devoting his career to "magic".

Well, "magic" is a rather vague descriptor. A better thing to say is that he's good at "cleric magic" (whatever the fuck you decide you want that to be).

So a cleric may be great at healing and support spells but not so great at direct damage. So a cleric using direct damage may not fit the paradigm of "cleric magic", so he has to do it a bit more inefficiently. A rogue can pick a lock to bypass a door, while a fighter can bash that door down. The rogue is doing it much more efficiently, because beating locked doors is part of his schtick, but the fighter can also do it to a limited degree, though not as well.

The same could be said of a cleric casting a spell normally devoted to wizards.

Now one could say "why let clerics cast it at all?" or "why let fighters bash down doors?"

The whole point of that is to allow some overlap so that parties aren't totally screwed if they're lacking the appropriate class, because it'd be pretty shitty if your group didn't have a rogue and found it impossible to bypass a locked door at all.

[PhoneLobster]

Spells don't just scale by caster level.

They scale by the level you get them at.

In all kinds of arbitrary ways, like targetting limitations on charms and dominates, hit die caps on sleep, damage caps on fire balls and burning hands, monster lists for summon monster, areas and damage types, numbers of targets, status types, immunities, blah blah blah.

You can't JUST start juggling around different spell levels whole sale, sure go ahead with one or two, a very carefully selected one or two groomed for raging against the machine.

Cause some spells can almost function at differing levels, but most can't, they are specifically designed NOT to.

But when you start deciding to manipulate whole schools off the wizard list moving them around not just to one new level but moving ALL the spells to VARIOUS different levels SIMULTANEOUSLY.

Well, thats just CHAOS. And its a generally bad thing.

[Crissa]

I have to agreen with RC here.

A spell list is a toolbox. It's not a headliner ability unless you're a Sorceror.

The fact that a high level magic user could have Open Lock as a spell doesn't undermine the Rogue that can Open Locks ot the Warrior who can Break Locks.

A spell list is a cohort.

-Crissa

[Neeek]

1171271263[/unixtime]]
But when you start deciding to manipulate whole schools off the wizard list moving them around not just to one new level but moving ALL the spells to VARIOUS different levels SIMULTANEOUSLY.

...I don't think you are getting the idea. My thingee didn't change the level of any spell at all. It denied access to certain spells until you reached a higher level. The 7th level guy who took Enchantment as one of his last schools casting Sleep would be casting Sleep as a 1st level spell, taking up a 1st level spot. He just wouldn't have access to Tasha's Hideous Laughter until he was a 9th level character, at which point he cast it as a 2nd level spell.

At 7th level you'd have this as your spell list:
0/1st level spells: all 8 schools
2nd level spells: 5 schools
3rd level spells: 3 schools
4th level spells: 1 school

[Username17]

So a cleric using direct damage may not fit the paradigm of "cleric magic", so he has to do it a bit more inefficiently.

No. See this is exactly the argument that has made Fighter/Mages suck ass. See, if a character is going to do something, that thing had better be level appropriate. Otherwise that character sucks monkey ass. If you give a character a shiny new spell for him to use, it should be useful for the level he gets it at.

You could limit a spell by having people be able to cast less of it per day (for example: the only direct damage appears on Domain Lists, so the Cleric is going to throw one level appropriate effect per day of that type and the rest come from the traditional Cleric crap), or you could restrict the character by giving them less granularity in the field (for example: you might give Wizards a Cone-shaped Cold attack, and a shapeable Fire attack while the Cleric just gets flamestrike).

But you can't give people combat options "that suck" without making the characters suck.

...I don't think you are getting the idea. My thingee didn't change the level of any spell at all. It denied access to certain spells until you reached a higher level. The 7th level guy who took Enchantment as one of his last schools casting Sleep would be casting Sleep as a 1st level spell, taking up a 1st level spot. He just wouldn't have access to Tasha's Hideous Laughter until he was a 9th level character, at which point he cast it as a 2nd level spell.

Unless you're packaging this idea with a new method of Wizards learning spells, it's just the same as anally raping people. After all, Wizard's learn spells 2 at a time from the highest spell level they can cast. Introducing a delay on when they could learn spells from other schools is just like telling them that they can't ever have those spells.

-Username17

[Neeek]

1171303557[/unixtime]]

Unless you're packaging this idea with a new method of Wizards learning spells, it's just the same as anally raping people. After all, Wizard's learn spells 2 at a time from the highest spell level they can cast. Introducing a delay on when they could learn spells from other schools is just like telling them that they can't ever have those spells.

Oh sure. I'd probably go with (2 + 1 of each spell level) new spells whenever they go up a level or some such.

[Crissa]

Not ever having the spells and having the spells as a cohort is a different thing.

...Since Wizards can learn extra spells.

But I'm going with the assumption that any spell will give a level-appropriate result based upon caster level.

-Crissa

[RandomCasualty]

1171303557[/unixtime]]
No. See this is exactly the argument that has made Fighter/Mages suck ass. See, if a character is going to do something, that thing had better be level appropriate. Otherwise that character sucks monkey ass. If you give a character a shiny new spell for him to use, it should be useful for the level he gets it at.

Well, not if it's what I would call a "Cross-class" spell or ability. As stated before, just because the spell is there doesn't mean you've got to use it, it just allows you to do something else. It's like saying "why can a cleric fight with a sword at all if he can't fight as good as a fighter?"

That argument doesn't make a heck of a lot of sense to me, because it defies the whole point of having specialists.

Besides of course, the difference should only be a few d6 in damage.

And by definition, having an extra ability that's weaker than what another class gets is better than having no ability at all, so long as you aren't paying for it. Clerics pay absolutely nothing for crap on their spell list, so adding a spell (even a horrible one) at worst has no effect on the cleric's overall power, so it isn't even a big deal.

It's like going to the fighter and saying "Ok, you can disarm traps like a rogue of equivalent level, but at a -8 penalty and you don't have to pay a damn tihng to do it."

Even if you think that ability sucks, it's still better than not being able to disarm traps at all. At worst, your character never disarms a trap, so you go along as if you didn't have the ability.

Now, if you're actually paying a feat or a spell known slot for the ability, then it better damn well be worth it.

[Username17]

Cross class abilities are essentially worthless, and thus can only be game balanced if they are granted in addition to whatever else you'd be doing.

So the fact that a wizard pays nothing for his ability to be completely shitty with a dagger is just a toss-off. If players are actually giving up top-end spell slots or known spells, they'd better be getting top end abilities for their trouble.

---

If you don't want a 9th level wizard to be a healer, you don't give them access to 5th level spells that are healing in nature. The alternate path, where you give them 5th level spells that are just extremely shitty at healing - that's a one stop recipe for destroying the game.

---

Or to put it another way: wat if we gave Rogues the option to have less sneak attack and be able to throw cantrips around? Would that be balanced? (Hint: fvck no).

-Username17

[AlphaNerd]

Dude, the simplest thing is to divide all the spells into some fixed number of groups, and let all spellcasters get full access to some, late access to some others, and no access to some. Let spellcasters choose which ones they want, and make let them burn extra choices on specialization (balance it if you can) if they want to.

That way, whatever the fvck you want to focus in, you can. Cleric is just a preselected set of focuses, just as sorceror or bard or whatever. There's no real difference in arcane or divine spellcasting, except regarding prestige class entrance, so either make the choosing of your dependent on what focuses (spheres, whatever) you choose, or let everyone choose based on what they *want*. Of course that means there is only one spellcasting class, so let people set fire to their choices to get either more spells/day (or encounter), spontaneous casting, better, BAB, more skills, or whatever. Congratulations, you have a classless system.

[PhoneLobster]

But I'm going with the assumption that any spell will give a level-appropriate result based upon caster level.

Which means for a start before this even becomes workable you need to rewrite caster level/DC junk much like the character level based suggestion before (which is probably a good idea regardless).

THEN you need to rewrite all the spells, because they STILL aren't level appropriate based on caster level.

Off the top of my head...

The sleep spells, hold spells, dominates, charms, summon monsters, summon animals, anything with lesser, greater, improved or Mass in the title (and the regular versions), the cure spells, the crazy high level spells like wish, the lameo low level spells like floating disc, everything with caps built in like basically every direct damage spell ever...

Theres a lot of work to make the existing spell lists just be magically scalingly level appropriate.

Now once you rewrite ALL those spells to be caster level appropriate AND rewrite caster level to be character level appropriate...

Well then you end up with a system where all your abilities are level appropriate and sometimes you just get more. Thats somewhat alright.

But thats really very different to what RC and Neek are suggesting.

I had thought that the thread making fun of the WOTC empty levels consolation prizes article had pretty much established that you shouldn't be doing what RC and Neek are suggesting.

[Tokorona]

One of the minor issues I had when rewriting the paladin was this. I eventually ended up goign with "If the Paladin has it, it must be equal to the Cleric's casting."

This lead to the Paladin getting the possiblity (with high enough WIS for a bonus spell) at level 7. and the surity of it at level 8.

As you can tell.. I think half casters should get it -slightly- later. My paladin gets her spells a level after cleric, but I also jumbled spells around. I figured having a massive amount of main combat options would justify it, but.. it appears I was wrong.

Regardless, I think that you should really have them be either a) at the level with everyone else or b) worth waiting for. Elsewise, they are not worth it.

[RandomCasualty]

1171327376[/unixtime]]Cross class abilities are essentially worthless, and thus can only be game balanced if they are granted in addition to whatever else you'd be doing.

Right, and unless you're a sorcerer, the lesser spells are granted in addition to whatever else you're doing.

So the fact that a wizard pays nothing for his ability to be completely shitty with a dagger is just a toss-off. If players are actually giving up top-end spell slots or known spells, they'd better be getting top end abilities for their trouble.

Known spells yes, spell slots, not necessarily. Giving up a spell slot to do something suboptimal is like having your fighter without improved disarm try to disarm someone. It might be kinda dumb and inefficient, but it doesnt' break the game. Your wizard can just prepare something better the next day and the game goes on.

If you don't want a 9th level wizard to be a healer, you don't give them access to 5th level spells that are healing in nature. The alternate path, where you give them 5th level spells that are just extremely shitty at healing - that's a one stop recipe for destroying the game.

Aside from sorcerers, how does that destroy the game? If something sucks for you as a cleric then you just decide that tomorrow you won't use it anymore. Problem solved.

[Tokorona]

Aside from sorcerers, how does that destroy the game? If something sucks for you as a cleric then you just decide that tomorrow you won't use it anymore. Problem solved.

Or.. .you can just not give them a shitty choice, avoiding the problem?

[RandomCasualty]

1171356375[/unixtime]]
Or.. .you can just not give them a shitty choice, avoiding the problem?

Well, saying "lets not give them the choice" can get awfully dangerous, because it ends up really pidgeonholing classes. Either you're awesome at something or you suck. Meaning that if you're not a fighter class, you can't fight, if you're not a healer class, you can't heal. If you're not a blaster, you have no direct damage at all.

Well, what next under this paradigm? Take away rogue UMD because it's not as reliable as a pure caster using a wand? Take away the fighters ability to bash down doors with a power attack because it's not as efficient as picking a lock? Hell, one might even wonder why we give the rogue the ability to fight at all, because his BaB is inferior to a fighters.

[Catharz]

1171361236[/unixtime]]
Well, saying "lets not give them the choice" can get awfully dangerous, because it ends up really pidgeonholing classes. Either you're awesome at something or you suck. Meaning that if you're not a fighter class, you can't fight, if you're not a healer class, you can't heal. If you're not a blaster, you have no direct damage at all.

That isn't 'awesome or suck.' That's 'awesome or your job.'

1171361236[/unixtime]]Well, what next under this paradigm? Take away rogue UMD because it's not as reliable as a pure caster using a wand? Take away the fighters ability to bash down doors with a power attack because it's not as efficient as picking a lock? Hell, one might even wonder why we give the rogue the ability to fight at all, because his BaB is inferior to a fighters.

This is a different issue. Spell level difference isn't like adamantine greatsword vs. Disable Device. It's like a rogue taking Disable Device vs. a fighter taking Disable Device. People only take cross-class Disable Device because they're planning on taking some strange PrC or feat which requires it.

Same spell/different level is basically the same: The only reason a sorcerer should ever take a spell which a cleric gets sooner is to qualify for a prestige class. If you take the spell/skill just to have it, you're gimping your character. When the 10th level fighter with 7 ranks in Disable Device offers to open a lock for you, you expect him to get out his greatsword. When he offers to look at a trap for you, you laugh in his face.

Granted, if the fighter had some hombrew 'tools of +30 disable device,' he could do it. That's not the character, that's his items. If a sorcerer gets his hands on an amulet of Plane Shift, I don't criticize him for using that either.

[User3]

Well, if you can replace the crappy choice with a good one..

That's infinitly more preferable.

[RandomCasualty]

1171388737[/unixtime]]
Same spell/different level is basically the same: The only reason a sorcerer should ever take a spell which a cleric gets sooner is to qualify for a prestige class. If you take the spell/skill just to have it, you're gimping your character. When the 10th level fighter with 7 ranks in Disable Device offers to open a lock for you, you expect him to get out his greatsword. When he offers to look at a trap for you, you laugh in his face.

Granted, if the fighter had some hombrew 'tools of +30 disable device,' he could do it. That's not the character, that's his items. If a sorcerer gets his hands on an amulet of Plane Shift, I don't criticize him for using that either.

The problem is that you're assuming that someone can do it better. Just because a class exists in the book doesn't mean it exists in your party. What if the group doesn't have a guy who can disable traps? Is one of the PCs getting limited trap disabling a waste of time? What if you have nobody who can plane shift? Is getting plane shift (even at a higher level than some nonexistent other character) a bad idea?

I mean what if your group really wants to plane shift...

[Catharz]

1171420983[/unixtime]]
The problem is that you're assuming that someone can do it better. Just because a class exists in the book doesn't mean it exists in your party. What if the group doesn't have a guy who can disable traps? Is one of the PCs getting limited trap disabling a waste of time?

Yes, the character who buys it cross class is wasting his time, assuming he's much above 1st level. Ignoring that he should just get a cohort (because that isn't always an option), trying the shore up a party's weaknesses with cross-class ranks is like trying to build a dyke out of sand.

If your skill check is going to be significantly lower than a dedicated Disabler's, there is no way that you can Disable level-appropriate devices with a skill check. You'll almost always fail, and there are better ways to get around traps without Disable Device than 'I can manage to not get myself killed 10% of the time.' Magic, followers, 5' poles, adamantine weapons...the list goes on.

What if you have nobody who can plane shift? Is getting plane shift (even at a higher level than some nonexistent other character) a bad idea?

I mean what if your group really wants to plane shift...

Then you use a scroll, or a magic item, or hire someone who can. Planeshift is a story effect or an attack. If it's being used as a story effect, there will be other ways to get it. If you're using it as an attack, you should be using a level-appropriate attack instead.

[Judging__Eagle]

1171420983[/unixtime]]

I mean what if your group really wants to plane shift...

Do what everyone in your world that hires adventurers does.

Hire some adventurers that can do what you need them to do.

If you don't need them to do actual combat; tell them up-front that you need them as a task-mage and that they get 1/2 or 1/4 of a regular party member's value in treasure.

Seriously, our Eberron group is gonna hire a 1st to 3rd lvl wizard to tag along with our 6-7th lvl party so that he can cast Rope Trick while our group has to wander through the Mournlands to do some job.

Maybe he gets to fire off some scorching rays and get some XP and in return our group has an extradimensional place for us to actually cast healing magic on ourselves (any spell of the [Healing] subschool doesn't work in the Mournlands, but being in a Rope Tricked area is fine since you're not technically in the Mournlands when in an Ex-Dim space).

[RandomCasualty]

1171422518[/unixtime]]
Then you use a scroll, or a magic item, or hire someone who can. Planeshift is a story effect or an attack. If it's being used as a story effect, there will be other ways to get it. If you're using it as an attack, you should be using a level-appropriate attack instead.

Well exactly. It's a story effect. So why is it a big deal some people get it later than others? I mean you're ok with wasting character wealth on it to pay someone, but you're not okay with a wizard burning a few hundred gold to scribe it to his book and then be able to use it whenever he wants.

Seems like a waste to go pissing character wealth off on hiring some NPC (who could die easy or may want a split of the treasure and steal XP) or paying a feat on a cohort (which a lot of DMs don't even allow).

[Crissa]

Given that it's a level appropriate effect...

...Is there any reason why getting these effects in a different order is unbalanced?

-Crissa

[Catharz]

1171422725[/unixtime]]

1171422518[/unixtime]]
Then you use a scroll, or a magic item, or hire someone who can. Planeshift is a story effect or an attack. If it's being used as a story effect, there will be other ways to get it. If you're using it as an attack, you should be using a level-appropriate attack instead.

Well exactly. It's a story effect. So why is it a big deal some people get it later than others? I mean you're ok with wasting character wealth on it to pay someone, but you're not okay with a wizard burning a few hundred gold to scribe it to his book and then be able to use it whenever he wants.

Seems like a waste to go pissing character wealth off on hiring some NPC (who could die easy or may want a split of the treasure and steal XP) or paying a feat on a cohort (which a lot of DMs don't even allow).

Either you're still pissing character wealth off on scribing the spell into your spellbook (which costs more than it should because of the artificially increased level), or you're spending a non-refundable 'spell known slot' on it.

If you do spend the money to copy it or the 'known slot' to know it, and spend a spell slot to cast it, you're still down one over-priced spell slot for the start of the adventure.