The Shadowrun Situation

[The Vigilante]

Also, who would even consider a job offer (if you can call it that) presented by such a dickwad ? I mean, what respectable publisher or developper would think it is a good idea to ask someone with such a wannabe conspirational tone to deliver that message ?

I would also state that to believe someone would take that seriously is to be quite the retard, but we already knew that about our friend Tardzar.

[Bull]

Dude. It was in public. Bull seriously made a series of demeaning and sexually aggressive forum posts about Jennifer Harding for the explicit and admitted purpose of disrupting debate and reducing the chance that she was going to receive compensation for her labor.

<sarcasm>Yes, that's exactly what I was doing.</sarcasm>

I had dinner with Jen at Origins. We both found this amusing.

Bull

[DragonChild]

Uh... that IS exactly what you were doing. Why would you constantly attempt to change the subject, including admitting doing so, to the subject of her body when the actual subject of the thread was how she and others wern't being paid.

[Bull]

Uh... that IS exactly what you were doing. Why would you constantly attempt to change the subject, including admitting doing so, to the subject of her body when the actual subject of the thread was how she and others wern't being paid.

No, I meant I wasn't sexually harassing or demeaning her.

I was derailing a thread, and admitted to such, because I felt (and still feel) that it was counterproductive to Dumpshock at that time, since it had gone past the point of useful conversation and into name calling, insults, flaming, lies, and innuendo, from all sides. Hell, I was barely derailing the thread, as it was a brand new thread, restarted after the previous one had gotten too heated. I was simply hoping the conversation would go a different direction this time. Plus, the majority of what I mentioned had been brought up by other people in the previous thread. I was simply recapping.

And never once have I ever said that she (nor anyone else that's been involved with Shaodwrun) shouldn't be paid. As someone that spent well over a year, twice, waiting for payment from FanPro, I'm very aware of the...peculiarities... that tend to go with Gaming payment schedules. And I don't wish that on anyone.

However, people being assholes on Dumpshock wasn't going to (and didn't) resolve anything for her. She made all the necessary moves to get paid up behind the scenes, and that was that.

Bull

[Bull]

Oh, and for anyone wondering about my sexual harassment... Here ya go, the thread in question.

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s ... =0&start=0

For what it's worth, I got two warnings on Dumpshock for deliberately torpedoing the thread. (Third one earns me a couple days in the corner, so I've been behaving).

Hrmm, and it should be noted that the people posing for the Lingerie/Swimsuit calender did not include Jennifer. It was mainly me and Caine_Hazen, and we bringing up a topic from the previous years Gen Con.

[Saxony]

Y'know, the entire reason I terminated my contracts and blew off over two grand of drafts is so I wouldn't have to do business with your particular brand of asshole. Take the hint.

What a concise and entirely appropriate response. It really is nice writing.

Yeah, this. I'm an outsider looking in, but I have to say the righteous comedic value of using very good English to tell someone to fuck themselves over an altercation about writing...

This is probably the first and last time I will seriously think a situation calls for the following terminology.

CarThar3fail got pwned. Just got straight up pwned. It was almost hilariously one sided the entire time, but that statement by AH right there just fucking clinched the entire thing.

Go you, Ancient History. Go you. You pwn.

Now I want to pump my fist victoriously and softly but firmly exclaim "Yeeeah!"

.... or something.

[Crissa]

Well, Bull, even you would have to admit that move didn't achieve the softening effect you were looking for and in hindsight probably does look skeevy.

Your social position and familiarity doesn't translate to others in public on the internet.

-Crissa

[4815162342]

It is surprising that it took Bull coming here to explain the situation about the belly ring post intentions de-mystified. I would have thought the purple unicorns and space elves would have proven that they were not posts intended to be taken as serious. So notate these posts for the next time CGL and Tops by extension are accused of sexual harassment allegations with Jen as the victim. (I can almost see the post 2 months from now where the accusation will be made again and Bulls post forgotten by those Blind and Deaf to a positive discourse from CGL.)
As someone who is involved in a non CGL related Game System I can tell you that AH's work is known and his resolution with CGL is also known. It will be a matter of personal decision making to each company that would accept a proposal or present work request to him about how he previously handled work that he did not agree with. Some will be able to work with him and some will not. How that shakes out I can only guess. I know how I would feel on the projects I’m involved with currently, but as he is not involved in any of them its pure speculation on my part.
I take full responsibility for what follows but no responsibility for its impact on your higher brain functions. I know what it has done to mine trying to find the simplest way to repeat what I have said above.

[mean_liar]

I hope that 4815162342 is not a professional writer or editor. I believe this hope is unfounded.

[Bull]

Well, Bull, even you would have to admit that move didn't achieve the softening effect you were looking for and in hindsight probably does look skeevy.

Your social position and familiarity doesn't translate to others in public on the internet.

-Crissa

Yeah, as I posted in one of the last posts I made in that thread, I was mostly a combination of grumpy and cranky and drunk on my newfound lack of responsibility (THis was shortly after I stepped down as mod). I've since avoided any discussion on that situation, and really only popped over here because, well, even if Jen did find it a bit amusing, being called out for sexual harassment bugs me a bit.

Bull

[Draco_Argentum]

Thanks for the laughs after having four wisdom teeth removed jerkwads.

[SJE]

Out of curiousity -what happened with the bankruptcy hearing -when is that scheduled for again?

Thx.

SJE

[Ancient History]

14 October

[Endovior]

Heh, people keep asking that for some reason, proving that they haven't been following this mess.

[erik]

Yeah. I've never played Shadow Run so basically my only interaction with this debacle is in my following of various threads here.

I imagine like a lot of folks I'm not as invested in it as others and if I hadn't been following from the start a 59 page thread would be daunting.

[Stahlseele]

You think this is bad?
Try following the two dozend or so threads on dumpshock . .
Or on CBT.com . . oh, no, wait, those got closed/deleted . .

[Count Arioch the 28th]

I hope that 4815162342 is not a professional writer or editor. I believe this hope is unfounded.

Oh thank god, I thought I was the only one that didn't understand that.

[Centurion13]

It is surprising that it took Bull

*snip*


I’m done.

Thank God for small favors.

Is it me or is it really that no matter what alternate account they start, certain folks give themselves away every time by posting a freaking wall of text?

Cent13

[Centurion13]

Heh, people keep asking that for some reason, proving that they haven't been following this mess.

Or they have, but also have other things in life with a higher priority. Which is why they stop in here to ask.

Hell, I'm interested - but only because I am involved in the BT hobby.

Cent13

[Crissa]

Besides, it's handy to have the next date - October 14th - handy on the most recent page.

-Crissa

[Absentminded_Wizard]

Having read number-string's director's cut of their entry, I really hope this person isn't a professional writer (at least of English-language works). They write like a non-native English speaker.

[Stahlseele]

This here thread is for me both the cliffs notes and the for dummies version rolled up into one, because here i can usually get a summary and an explanation of what that summary could mean . .

edit: just curious but: how does a non-native English speaker write?

[Kaelik]

edit: just curious but: how does a non-native English speaker write?

Traditionally they use simple words, often don't use contractions, and depending on the language, screw up structure in predictable ways (IE germans follow the German Subject Verb Indirect Object Direct Object form, but French follow the Subject Verb Direct Indirect form, and other people do other shit.)

I don't think that's what he was talking about.

Also:

Because he wrote for Catalyst Game Labs that he was trying to attack her so she would back down.
They say this because they really hate Loren Coleman and Randal Bills.
They think that these two men sent him to attack her so she will leave the company alone.

Nope, no one said or thinks that. I guess you are just full of shit.

[Ancient History]

This next part is about Ancient History.
People involved in the Games Industry know his work.
They know the great quality of writing skills.
They also know that he became disgruntled with his manager.
He did not believe what his manager was telling him was the truth.
He has been accused of saying his Manager was a Liar.

Well, no. I outright stated that I believe Jason Hardy, Shadowrun Line Developer, was a liar. This is my opinion. Jason claims he has not lied. We've discussed this at length in public. There was no accusation.

There were other things apparently said that people don’t know about.

I have no idea what this is about, I think I've been more than clear about everything that went into my leaving, including the guy that ratted me out (David Hill, Jr.) and Jason's emails asking me to be removed from basecamp and the freelancer forums for "undermining me [sic] and the company". The only thing I haven't spilled the beans on are the yet-to-be-announced/discussed products that I was working on or knew about.

Then he pulled his writing from work on Shadow Run Books.
That was his personal way of dealing with the problem he was having.
It was his right to do that.
Then when books were released his work was still in it.
He then published some of his work for anyone to use.
This work was about the intellectual property of Tops publishing through Catalyst Game Labs.
This work he published was in many ways so similar to work that was being sold as Shadowrun.

I terminated my contracts for everything that hadn't hit print yet. When I got wind that CGL was maybe going to use some of my work in their upcoming sourcebooks, I contacted Jason Hardy and Randall Bills about it. I was gently rebuffed and assured that wouldn't happen. Then I released my drafts for free to the public. This wasn't "like" Shadowrun, this was Shadowrun, with appropriate disclaimers about Topps' copyright on Shadowrun and the non-commercial nature of the work. CGL released Corporate Guide and the Sixth World Almanac, both of which contained some of my work, as I had been specifically worried about. CG was sloppy in re-setting the text, or so it was claimed, and the issue was resolved. 6WA stole ideas, which I found more hurtful and deliberate, and Jason blew me off when we talked about it - because you can't copyright ideas.

Other people in the Science Fiction and Fantasy market observed this.
Now he has burned a bridge with the people who currently create a game he wrote about.
A game many consider him to be one of the most expert minds on the History and Lore of the Game.
They will want to use his work but they have to think.
What if he does not get along with the direction of the project he is asked to work on?
Will he do this again to us?
He will have to explain how he intends to write what is asked of him even if he does not agree with it.
The personal feeling, gut checks, when interacting with him will be what decides his projects.

The implicit assumption here is that the same people publishing SR now will continue publishing SR forever. It's my sincere hope that isn't going to be the case. Whether I ever write for Shadowrun again (and it ain't looking good at this point), I'm never going to have any business relationship with Loren L. Coleman, Randall Bills, Jason Hardy, or David Hill ever again. Maybe I'm being a bit medieval in my morals, but I'm not big on giving people second chances to fuck me over. I can't trust those individuals, and so I'm not going to work with them on anything. I would rather walk away from potential money and be assured that I'm not dealing with people I feel have been willfully and knowingly dishonest. If nothing else, any future people looking to hire me for a bit of work can know that my actions were all upfront, aboveboard, and legal, which is more than I can say for Loren and Randall; anyone for whom that may be an issue aren't people I'd like to associate or do business with.

I’m done.

Well thank gosh for that.

[Username17]

edit: just curious but: how does a non-native English speaker write?

It varies by foreign language of course, and you can occasionally find a tell here and there when a foreign language speaker drops a clue in bad or unusual grammatical structure. A German speaker might to the end of the sentence verbs put. Polish speaker may inexplicably drop determiner from sentence. Things in a sentence may be strangely anthropomorphized by his Spanish author. And so on.

But the big one is usually just the creation of sentences that either run on interminably or get weirdly choppy. That combined with a disturbing lack of idiomatic phrases generally tells you that you are looking at something written by someone who does not know the language. Alternately, bad use of paragraph spacing - either jumbling everything together or chopping everything up oddly.

This next part is about Ancient History.
People involved in the Games Industry know his work.
They know the great quality of writing skills.
They also know that he became disgruntled with his manager.
He did not believe what his manager was telling him was the truth.
He has been accused of saying his Manager was a Liar.
There were other things apparently said that people don’t know about.
Then he pulled his writing from work on Shadow Run Books.
That was his personal way of dealing with the problem he was having.
It was his right to do that.
Then when books were released his work was still in it.
He then published some of his work for anyone to use.
This work was about the intellectual property of Tops publishing through Catalyst Game Labs.
This work he published was in many ways so similar to work that was being sold as Shadowrun.

OK, let's look beyond the fact that this shit is factually, provably false, base on the fact that Ancient History revoked his contracts and put his unpublished work up for free before Catalyst published a book with his work still in it. That little fact sinks this shithead's entire line of bullshit, because Ancient History wasn't "doing" anything to Catalyst. They were stealing from him. But again, whatever, we're concentrating on the quality of the writing. Which is dreadful, and displays a fearful lack of understanding of the craft of the language.

First of all: formatting. That seems to be an attempt to present ideas in the form of an ordered list. It would have to be, because each sentence is followed by a line break, which otherwise signals the end of a paragraph. There should be bullet points or clear lines preceding each entry in the list. Otherwise it looks like it's beat poetry or just a single weirdly skinny paragraph. But you know what? That's Freshman English, but it's also typesetting rather than writing. So... moving on.

Secondly: pronouns and contextual references. Let's look back at line three. "They know the great quality of writing skills." What the fuck is that supposed to mean? It should be "They know the great quality of his writing skills." Or maybe even be rewritten entirely so that it is contextually apparent what is meant. Since the very first sentence says that the "next part" is about Ancient History, we can assume that every pronoun like "his" or "he" refers to Bobby, but when the previous sentence was totally not explicit (being about "people") we need more to go on than a simple "they". You'd be better off using something like "The quality of his writing skills is apparent." or something else that makes it clear that his writing ability is generally known and approved of.

-Username17