"I don't care what you say, Wish Economy doesn't work.&

[Judging__Eagle]

Okay, so, I've got a friend of mine who says this. For several reasons that they believe in, they say it's not possible.

So, the question is this, how does the Wish economy work?

[Leress]

If they don't care, then you really can't convince them anyway.

[Judging__Eagle]

It's mostly about trying to figure out how it actually works for use in my own games.

[Psychic Robot]

The Wish Economy is retarded and I wouldn't allow it in any game that I run, but it revolves around the use of planar binding.

Casting this spell attempts a dangerous act: to lure a creature from another plane to a specifically prepared trap, which must lie within the spell’s range. The called creature is held in the trap until it agrees to perform one service in return for its freedom.

To create the trap, you must use a magic circle spell, focused inward. The kind of creature to be bound must be known and stated. An efreet. If you wish to call a specific individual, you must use that individual’s proper name in casting the spell.

The target creature is allowed a Will saving throw. If the saving throw succeeds, the creature resists the spell. If the saving throw fails, the creature is immediately drawn to the trap (spell resistance does not keep it from being called). The creature can escape from the trap with by successfully pitting its spell resistance against your caster level check, by dimensional travel, or with a successful Charisma check (DC 15 + ½ your caster level + your Cha modifier). It can try each method once per day. If it breaks loose, it can flee or attack you. A dimensional anchor cast on the creature prevents its escape via dimensional travel. You can also employ a calling diagram (see magic circle against evil) to make the trap more secure.

If the creature does not break free of the trap, you can keep it bound for as long as you dare. You can attempt to compel the creature to perform a service by describing the service and perhaps offering some sort of reward. Grant me three wishes. If you want, I'll use two of them them to benefit you. You make a Charisma check opposed by the creature’s Charisma check. The check is assigned a bonus of +0 to +6 based on the nature of the service and the reward. If the creature wins the opposed check, it refuses service. New offers, bribes, and the like can be made or the old ones reoffered every 24 hours. This process can be repeated until the creature promises to serve, until it breaks free, or until you decide to get rid of it by means of some other spell. Impossible demands or unreasonable commands are never agreed to. If you roll a 1 on the Charisma check, the creature breaks free of the binding and can escape or attack you.

Once the requested service is completed, the creature need only so inform you to be instantly sent back whence it came. The creature might later seek revenge. If you assign some open-ended task that the creature cannot complete though its own actions the spell remains in effect for a maximum of one day per caster level, and the creature gains an immediate chance to break free. Note that a clever recipient can subvert some instructions.

You do this over and over again, racking jewelry worth 75,000 gp with each efreet.

[Maxus]

It's a barter system, with its rules enforced by the rules of the world (aka, the game mechanics).

It's like...okay, in one of the early Conan short stories, it goes into orgasms describing the opulence of a nobleman. Goes on about piles of "wealth" and even mentions he drinks out of a goblet cut from a single sapphire. That's an old idea about wealth, and one we've moved past.

Wealth is worth. Worth isn't universal. A master magical craftsman has no need of your gold, but would be drooling over a hundred pounds of adamantine. A starving man doesn't want gold, he wants food. An adventurer doesn't want a wagonload of turnips, he wants a new shield and his sword augmented.

D&D is a universe where a lot of people (and beings) are trying to accomplish something. And if you can supply something to help them accomplish it, they can return the favor somehow.

[CatharzGodfoot]

The wish economy only works when you use some rule modifications. Otherwise you end up with "The Wish".

But the wish economy itself is just a description of how the D&D economy can collapse when characters reach mid-levels.

[Kaelik]

The Wish Economy works like this:

Wish only grants you 25,000gp or a magic item worth 15,000gp or less.

With some knowledge checks, you can sit down and spend a day getting a few Efferti to grant you one wish each. Each one can give you a damn pile of money, or an item you can buy for money.

This can basically only happen outside of combat time, possibly only on days off depending on your class.

So the economy is exactly identical right up until you get to the point where you want a 15,001 gp item.

When you get there, you can't buy it off a vendor with gold 99% of the time, because if he has access to specific 15,001gp items, rather than just whatever he happens to have via coincidence, it's because he already has access to the generalized Wish economy, which means that he already has more gold than he gives a fuck about.

So once you get there you enter a barter type economy, where you have other 15,001gp items that you can trade for the ones you want. Or you can trade souls to certain creatures, or Pure Chaos, or whatever.

Because things like Pure Chaos and Souls can be used to craft badass items, so people are willing to take them.

So lots of whiny bitches say "But you can just set up soul farms instead of using money tricks." which is stupid, because there are rules for what happens when you set up soul farms, and it's in the dungeonomicon. What happens is demons show up and you keep leveling in line with your wealth. Or if you try to early, they just beat the shit out of you and take all your souls and your farm.

Side note: The Cleric is weird, because if he doesn't have a Wizard friend, he can't actually use Wish to get specific items or anything for a long damn time. But he actually gets to buy everything he ever wants to buy with money at level 9, because that's when he can Plane Shift to a Plane with infinite mountains of gems and just take as many as he can carry.

[Zinegata]

One would think that the Wish Economy would result in runaway inflation.

[Username17]

The Wish Economy is not about trading wishes back and forth, it's a shortening of "post wish economy". That is, the basic understanding that minor and medium magic items are available from the Sultan Catalog or Djinnazon, an most importantly of all: that Major Magic Items ARE NOT. And thus, that piles of gold substantially heavier than you are can't be directly traded for items that couldn't possibly be wished for. Because at that level, that piece of scarcity actually renders such items beyond the reach of simple barter with hundreds of pounds of gold.

There is simply a limit to how much weight of trade goods people will accept in a transaction. Just like you can't buy a car with a giant sack of quarters and you can't buy a house with a duffel full of Andrew Jacksons, you can't buy a Holy Avenger with your horses' weight in gold. It's just not something that rational people would exchange in a trade.

If you want to buy a house or a Monet, you need to use a more valuable and transportable medium of exchange - such as trading another artwork or using a damn bank note. The Wish Economy is not about people trading in wishes, although they could. It's about people not trading in Gold, because after your three hundredth pound of the stuff there isn't anything you can do with another pound that you couldn't already do.

-Username17

[Crissa]

The Wish economy doesn't work. It isn't a 'wording' or even require planar binding. It merely is a description of supply-demand in a world where different places and peoples have infinite supply.

Efreet have infinite stuff under a certain gold value. Elementals have infinite of their element while at home. There's many creatures and peoples with wishes. Why wouldn't they use them?

And for the most part, they won't sell those wishes for cash. There's no point in it. So up to that point, you need cash. But past that point... They also won't accept cash. Because they have infinite cash. So you can't buy bigger things with cash, like many seem to expect in the books. Because anyone who can make or get those things already has infinite cash.

Basically, anyone who says it is retarded has a very slim knowledge of economics past grade school level.

-Crissa

Here's a simple way of looking at it: You have infinite air. So you won't buy air. Characters without access to wishes - and they exist at lower levels - are like people under water. They have a finite amount of air, and will accept air as payment or buy air. But once on the surface... Who would 'buy air'? It's right there, they have all they want or could use. It's worthless to them. They might sell air, but for the most part, they will look at you like you're stupid if you try to buy something with it.

That's how it is for people and gold or valuables in D&D: At a certain point, things of a certain level are worthless to them.

[Zinegata]

So this economy is basically an economy revolving around the trade of +1 swords?

[Leress]

So this economy is basically an economy revolving around the trade of +1 swords?

No.

[Crissa]

Wish, d20srd

Wish can:
Create a nonmagical item of up to 25,000 gp in value.
Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.

This was errata'd to be 15,000 gp in magic items.

So, anyone with access to this has infinite gold, infinite magic items. This is the one point at which no DM can nix an infinite gold loop without really pulling your britches.

There are many races with this as an inherent spell-like. They don't even have the XP cost.

If you're dealing with them, cash won't do it. They don't want it. They can have whatever they want - under those limits. So you need to barter with them with things you can't buy or summon. That they can't buy or summon, more importantly.

-Crissa

[Zinegata]

So... Kaelik's original definition is correct? I'm wading through multiple definitions here, but Crissa's seems to just go back to Kaelik's that "Wish-users essentially have infinite gold, and thus are interested only in XP-related stuff like souls".

Here's the problem though: a 15K magic item isn't valuable to the Wish-user. But can't you just craft your own magic items at that level too? And doesn't crafting cost gold to buy material components?

So sell the +1 swords for gold to some plucky young adventurer. Gold is then translated into material components for crafting. Sell enough +1 swords, and you should have enough gold to buy enough material components for whatever artifact of doom you're making.

Sure, the crafting rules are pretty retarded. but somebody has to go through the process so that the world has nicer magic items. And heck, it's a certainly safer way of acquiring them than killing off somebody else and taking their loot.

(And yes, they'd still have to continue trading in souls and other stuff to avoid the XP costs. But it's still mean a ton of minor magic items will be flooding the market in exchange for components)

Also, that assumes they just spend gold to get neater stuff (which is an okay assumption when dealing with PCs). But what if you have NPCs with dreams of world domination and who start arming local militias with +1 swords?

[Leress]

So... Kaelik's original definition is correct? I'm wading through multiple definitions here, but Crissa's seems to just go back to Kaelik's that "Wish-users essentially have infinite gold, and thus are interested only in XP-related stuff like souls".

XP isn't used to craft items

Here's the problem though: a 15K magic item isn't valuable to the Wish-user. But can't you just craft your own magic items at that level too? And doesn't crafting cost gold to buy material components?

Gold isn't used to craft items

So sell the +1 swords for gold to some plucky young adventurer. Gold is then translated into material components for crafting. Sell enough +1 swords, and you should have enough gold to buy enough material components for whatever artifact of doom you're making.

It wouldn't work since gold can't be turned into components for crafting.

Sure, the crafting rules are pretty retarded. but somebody has to go through the process so that the world has nicer magic items. And heck, it's a certainly safer way of acquiring them than killing off somebody else and taking their loot.

(And yes, they'd still have to continue trading in souls and other stuff to avoid the XP costs. But it's still mean a ton of minor magic items will be flooding the market in exchange for components)

Souls, pure chaos, etc are just currency for higher economies. It's okay if there are a flood of minor magic items. That really doesn't effect all that much in the grand scheme of things.

Also, that assumes they just spend gold to get neater stuff (which is an okay assumption when dealing with PCs). But what if you have NPCs with dreams of world domination and who start arming local militias with +1 swords?

Then there will be an army with slightly better weapons. But since a magical sword gets +1 per 3 levels anyway that really is just assumed.

[Orion]

Crafting also costs *time*, and the time of high-level people at that. So any item which has to be made by someone powerful enough to get infinite gold, cannot be ought for gold.

Furthermore, as a houserule one may replace the GP requirements for powerful items with a requirement for souls, raw chaos, condensed hope, or other special substances which cannot be wished for.

[Orion]

Crafting also costs *time*, and the time of high-level people at that. So any item which has to be made by someone powerful enough to get infinite gold, cannot be ought for gold.

Furthermore, as a houserule one may replace the GP requirements for powerful items with a requirement for souls, raw chaos, condensed hope, or other special substances which cannot be wished for.

[Crissa]

But that's it, Zine, there isn't any part of a higher-cost item that can be bought for gold. You might buy a super-rare gem for gold - if someone who isn't an elemental or efreet has it. Because they can just wish up one or just walk out and find bigger.

Gold works up to a point. And then... Only dragons who want to stuff their beds with it want it. And even then, they won't trade prized items for it.

-Crissa

[Zinegata]

Magic items don't cost gold (for components) and XP? Eh?

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Creating_Magic_Items

It says so in the SRD that you do need gold for the components (50% of base price worth) and XP.

Again:

But can't you just craft your own magic items at that level too? And doesn't crafting cost gold to buy material components?

So can't a Wish-user make a lot of low level items, sell those to plucky adventurers, then use the gold to buy the components he needs for the magic item crafting?

And yes, crafting costs a lot of time (which is why I said the rules for them are retarded). In fact, they specify this time in terms of the gold value of the item (1000 gp/day). Which is why I find this "you don't need gold to craft" talk to be strange.

I'm not aware of any "house rule" that lets special substances stand-in for the components. I know they can fulfill the XP cost component but that's it. Also, I don't recall any of these special substances shortening the magic-item making time anyway, so you're stuck with months of toiling away to make one magic item regardless.

[Crissa]

Zine, even if they want to craft something bigger, they can just wish for the comps. If you want to craft something bigger, you're gonna not want to squander your XP or comps on smaller items.

This isn't like I buy a house to sell to get a bigger house. It's a surface level. It's like beans... Air... Water, whatever. There's a level at which you can't use gold to get it anymore.

You think a billionaire who hates you cares about your pocket change? No. They won't stoop to pick up a penny, because that stoop costs more money than the penny is worth.

-Crissa

[DragonChild]

Magic items don't cost gold (for components) and XP? Eh?

I believe you're being confused by people saying you don't need XP and Gold to craft items with wish, as long as they're done as a Spell Like Ability - as those are explicitly material components.

[Zinegata]

But that's it, Zine, there isn't any part of a higher-cost item that can be bought for gold. You might buy a super-rare gem for gold - if someone who isn't an elemental or efreet has it. Because they can just wish up one or just walk out and find bigger.

The thing is, RAW doesn't say that the components for a more expensive magic item has to be a super-rare gem that can't be bought with gold. All it says is that you require material components, whose total cost is equal to 50% of the normal gold cost.

It can be interpreted a ton of ways. They might have meant that the material component is one item that cost 50K (which would put it out of reach of the Gold Economy), but what if they meant just gathering a fuckton of magic dust that only costs 1 gold per gram? (for reference, that's just 50 kilos of magic dust for 50K gold)

The latter is something that can certainly be bought from normal plucky adventurers or merchants - albeit you just need to go through a lot of them.

In fact, I think economy-wise the "one big expensive material component" route makes it impossible to make any magic items at all.

[Zinegata]

Magic items don't cost gold (for components) and XP? Eh?

I believe you're being confused by people saying you don't need XP and Gold to craft items with wish, as long as they're done as a Spell Like Ability - as those are explicitly material components.

Clarification: Are magic items created using Wish counted as material components for making bigger magic items? Because I'm not sure I read that part in the SRD.

[Crissa]

If you don't read it that way, then nothing you can Wish up is real.

Which is stupid. And not in the rules. If wished items couldn't be part of bigger items of vice versa the spell would say, and as it is, it says that you can augment other magic items.

-Crissa

I said you might buy a gem for gold that was above that, but that it required that person to have no access to any of the infinite gold loops.

[Username17]

The gp expenditures (if any) to purchase ritual goods for producing high end magic items are meaningless. It simply is not the limiting factor of anything. The thing where a 30,000 gp item takes thirty fucking days to make is a much bigger deal. At the level someone is making something like that, they make 30,000 gp a day just adventuring. Beyond that, manufacturing magic items is incapable of draining your coffers at a rate beyond 500 gp a day, no matter what rules you are using. So very large piles of gold are still useless even to powerful wizards who want to make powerful items tomorrow.

No one will ever manufacture a high end magic item for the purposes of selling it for gold. It simply does not make any sense to do that. You make money at the same overall rate making and selling wands of cure light wounds. Except that you get the money a lot earlier in the process and you have a lot more freedom because you can stop and cash out every 3 days if you want to. And besides, those god sticks sell for 15 pounds of gold a piece, which is unwieldy but still usable.

Similarly, no one who is making a major magic item will be limited by gp. Because time is more valuable at those levels than money, and also because the amounts of money called for are bullshit small.

No matter how you slice it: nobody gives a fuck about a pile of gold that is more than 15,000 gp. No one will ever give you a Staff of Life for any pile that contains only gold coins - no matter how big that pile is. Piles of gold much larger than 300 pounds worth can't be carried or spent in towns. There is nothing to purchase with them, and people would have to be retarded to trade something that is irreplaceable by efreet handwavium for a pile of perplexing shiny metal crap.

-Username17