The reason fighters can't have nice things.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Wed Oct 13, 2010 5:37 am

Zinegata wrote:
Kaelik wrote:Zine, you are a joke.
Kaelik, when will you realize "I win because I say so" only works on people without a backbone?

When I told you to go to MPSIMs and spew your off-topic bigotry there instead, that was not a request. That was a statement. And I'm not I'm not gonna derail this thread any further because of your inability to comprehend simple forum rules.

Zine, it's not a forum rule that when you are wrong, people are only allowed to point out that you are wrong someplace besides the place you are wrong.

You are wrong. All present day Christian Churches, and basically all Christians, believe that Jesus was and always was God, and at no point was a non Divine man.

It may completely undermine your stupid point about some subject I don't care about, but tough shit, it's still true.

Zinegata · Post by **Zinegata** » Wed Oct 13, 2010 5:41 am

Kaelik wrote:Zine, it's not a forum rule that when you are wrong, people are only allowed to point out that you are wrong someplace besides the place you are wrong.

http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=51550

Stop derailing thread and start new one in MPSIMs, because as you said, you're not interested in discussing Maj's Jesus tangent anyway.

This is my final reply to any of your posts in this thread unless you somehow find a way back to Fighters.

Starmaker · Post by **Starmaker** » Wed Oct 13, 2010 5:50 am

Kaelik wrote:All Lutherans believe it. All Catholics believe it. All Baptists believe it.

Russian Orthodox Church, reporting in.

violence in the media · Wed Oct 13, 2010 12:26 pm

Zinegata wrote:This is my final reply to any of your posts in this thread unless you somehow find a way back to Fighters.

Thank Jesus! And/or god.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Wed Oct 13, 2010 12:39 pm

Starmaker wrote:
Kaelik wrote:All Lutherans believe it. All Catholics believe it. All Baptists believe it.
Russian Orthodox Church, reporting in.

Yes, also Greek Orthodox, also, everyone else.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:26 pm

I need to see if one of my friends still has the Jesus prestige class. No, it's more than just having good saves for "Jesus Saves" (but there is that too). I think it might have, oddly bending back towards the original topic, been made with fighters in mind, what with Jesus* being a big angry Arab carpenter who could kick people's asses out of his temples.

*if we're pretending he existed. I don't want someone quoting me later on with that above bit, saying "See? Koumei believes in Jesus!" I can be irrational on my own.

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:47 pm

Okay Zine, let's talk literature. Maj already agreed that no levels-ups happen in the Gospel narratives. Are you going to disagree, or propose some other literary source?

mean_liar · Post by **mean_liar** » Wed Oct 13, 2010 2:15 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:Christian official teachings is that when Jesus said "My God My God Why Have You Forsaken Me?" that he was quoting from Psalm 22 and did not in fact believe that God had in any way forsaken him. Nor did he at that time believe that he was separate from God.

You know this is bullshit Frank.

EDIT - Apparently Kaelik is a bullshitter too.

There is no such thing as, "Christian official teachings". You have to go deeper than that to start assigning orthodoxies, since ever major dispute about the nature of Christ generally resolves with a schism.

Specifically I know that Jehova's Witnesses and Christian Unitarians believe that Christ was divine-like-God, not divine-as-God.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Wed Oct 13, 2010 2:36 pm

mean_liar wrote:There is no such thing as, "Christian official teachings". You have to go deeper than that to start assigning orthodoxies, since ever major dispute about the nature of Christ generally resolves with a schism.

Specifically I know that Jehova's Witnesses and Christian Unitarians believe that Christ was divine-like-God, not divine-as-God.

You mean Unitarians and Jehova's Witnesses don't believe Jesus was God.

I never would have got that from the fact that they define themselves as worshipers of God and not Jesus.

I have it on good authority that Jews don't believe Jesus is god either.

Princess · Post by **Princess** » Wed Oct 13, 2010 5:44 pm

Starmaker wrote:
Kaelik wrote:All Lutherans believe it. All Catholics believe it. All Baptists believe it.
Russian Orthodox Church, reporting in.

95% of so called Russian Orthodoxes are actually heretics who can not even name at least 5 apostles.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Wed Oct 13, 2010 5:51 pm

Princess wrote:
Starmaker wrote:
Kaelik wrote:All Lutherans believe it. All Catholics believe it. All Baptists believe it.
Russian Orthodox Church, reporting in.
95% of so called Russian Orthodoxes are actually heretics who can not even name at least 5 apostles.

Hell, the writers of the bible couldn't name all twelve. Lebbaeus, Thaddeus, and Judas the brother of James all appear on at least one list and not on at least 2. Also, they call Peter "Simon" sometimes.

-Username17

Princess · Post by **Princess** » Wed Oct 13, 2010 6:11 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:Hell, the writers of the bible couldn't name all twelve. Lebbaeus, Thaddeus, and Judas the brother of James all appear on at least one list and not on at least 2. Also, they call Peter "Simon" sometimes.

Soo what? Quod licet Iovi, non licet bovi;
Btw being not able to call apostles is only one thing from a list. They often have paganism practices, believe in superstitions, never read bible, do not know any prayer, they know about Christ mostly from The Passion of the Christ movie. Less than 2% of so called Christian country visit Easter Church Service, and that is peak of visits.
As I said, 95% of this people calling themselves as Christians are actually heretics who believe in somewhat pagan god.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Wed Oct 13, 2010 6:22 pm

Jesus fucking christ people! Don't make me go ask my father, the deacon, about official church teachings! Fuck! I'll get way more info than I give a shit about...

Red Archon · Post by **Red Archon** » Wed Oct 13, 2010 7:09 pm

Fuck Jesus and fuck this debate. Please start arguing over some other meaningless triviality. This one's done.

Juton · Post by **Juton** » Wed Oct 13, 2010 8:30 pm

What I've gleaned is the reason Fighters can't have nice things is Jesus.

Aside from that, D&D created the weird notion that in a fantasy world the only way you get magic is through study and devotion, or occasionally if an ancestor diddled something exotic. We should really concern ourselves with how to sell to the fanbase the idea that doing shit-tons of jumping jacks can give you the power to fly, because that's no less bullshit than magic books.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Wed Oct 13, 2010 8:41 pm

I popped into the last page of this thread to see what people were talking about with regard to fighters and having nice things.

I am disappoint.

Maj · Post by **Maj** » Wed Oct 13, 2010 9:30 pm

So back to the topic...

What about historical figures? Real people do seem to go through a leveling effect, so do stories about them count?

Juton · Post by **Juton** » Wed Oct 13, 2010 9:51 pm

Maj wrote:So back to the topic...

What about historical figures? Real people do seem to go through a leveling effect, so do stories about them count?

Sure, do you have any candidates that show this though?

malak · Post by **malak** » Wed Oct 13, 2010 9:53 pm

Juton wrote:
Maj wrote:So back to the topic...

What about historical figures? Real people do seem to go through a leveling effect, so do stories about them count?
Sure, do you have any candidates that show this though?

Putin?

Princess · Post by **Princess** » Wed Oct 13, 2010 9:56 pm

You mean Presi... erm Premier Putin?

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Wed Oct 13, 2010 10:10 pm

Is it really all that helpful to discuss the age of the leveling trope in stories? It's desired, expected, and considered a part of the roleplaying market; if not increasing in level in regards to reaching a new tier, certainly in getting better at all. There are few RPGs that break this expectation, and like it or not, people/players largely want more than just a story for incentive.

What's more important is finding a work-a-round the fighter issue:
* enjoyable PC wizards that are Willow
* (related) a more robust low-level genre system
* better, ingrained fluff making Charles Atlas accepted
* incorporated description/depiction where making a soak roll = not getting hit at all (perhaps also an anti-taunt, making them attack another PC?)
* other stuff I can't think of right now

It would also be handy to not focus so much on higher level D&D. It's own fluff essentially doesn't even mention the kind of power PCs truly have at 11+, and acts like it's still in some kind of low-level genre. People don't flock to D&D to get their Exalted/Nobilis kick, and understanding the truth is like discovering Santa's rotting in the chimney (for a good number, at least). When people get together for cooperative story-telling, how many actually want to tell the story of Kratos and beyond?

Princess · Post by **Princess** » Wed Oct 13, 2010 10:17 pm

virgil, the trouble is that DnD creators don't want players to have such powers. Dungeon have walls, traps, pits and such stuff. Truly epic fighter will just render it all useless. So their motto is "get back to the dungeon, closet tarrasque is waiting".

Juton · Post by **Juton** » Wed Oct 13, 2010 10:17 pm

I'm very reticent to comment on Putin at all, Putin had at one point 22 years of his service with the KGB redacted. He didn't even bother to put a banal face on his service like Bush 41 did. Because of that I don't know how we'd measure how he powers up.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Wed Oct 13, 2010 10:50 pm

Princess wrote:the trouble is that DnD creators don't want players to have such powers

How is that a contradiction in what I've said? I'm fully aware that DnD creators want a trapped dungeon, & make their adventures with this expectation. But you need to admit that a noticeably sized market of the RPG industry wants this too.

Truly wanting to be epic (outside of hyperbole/rhetoric) is to not want to play in a dungeon-crawl. If you want people to enjoy such a genre, help with making more enjoyable & engaging adventures that are epic. If you want to keep to the low-level dungeon crawling genre, then incorporate more rules/adventures/etc to keep the juxtaposition from arising; make sure people play Willow instead of Maleficent or Flora, and have fun at it too.

And if you find yourself in the Catch-22 where you want an epic game with fighters, but can't/won't let fighters be in an epic game, then add to the fluff/mechanics to make epic fighters more acceptable.

Princess · Post by **Princess** » Wed Oct 13, 2010 10:57 pm

You know, it's easier said than done.
Fighters can only chop-chop. I want Fighter to ram through walls - god damn, bull rush do not damage, dungeon crusher class feature makes 6d6+3 x Str damage and walls have around half thousands hp (goddamn dragons have less). I want Fighter to leap high - suckball, quadruple (!) DC for height jumps. I say "what the heck, everyone flies starting from level 6? let's cut this DC". Etc.
In our company I'm the GM and I constantly feel that system is planned to keep fighters on a short leash every time I try to make rule that allows them to be cool not only in amounts of charge damage.