Reviving Mr. Cavern

[Caedrus]

As a bit of an aside to the thread about Cavernicide, how would you make the role of Mr. Cavern more rewarding and, thus, more attractive to more mainstream players?

In my mind, one of the biggest obstacles is that of preparation time. Even for a DM who is creatively capable of improvising a sandbox full of interesting plots and memorable personalities, there's still the issue of things like "You cannot just immediately pull a statted NPC out of nowhere in 3.5e." Or the problem of keeping wealth by level in line, etc.

Others include ideas that MCing can sometimes be seen as a thankless job, or that it lacks the incremental rewards of PC experience. Often, I see the notion presented that MCing is a duty, more than a rewarding experience in itself. I don't personally think that way, but lots of other people do.

And yes, I realize that one potential solution is the idea of killing Mr. Cavern, but we already have a thread for that.
The idea here is to come up with ideas to make the role of content-creator more appealing to a wider audience.

[Username17]

The biggest aid for Mr. Cavern is monster books. As long as I have a stack of Monster Manuals, I can run sandbox in any setting for as long as required. There is a reason why in 1977 the Monster Manual came out before any other books. It's because having premade encounters makes Mister Cavern's life relatively easy, which in turn gives more empowerment to the PCs.

-Username17

[RobbyPants]

there's still the issue of things like "You cannot just immediately pull a statted NPC out of nowhere in 3.5e."

That is a big problem.

Some sort of NPC generator would be nice. The DMG tried this, but you basically just pick a single class and a level and look at a table to get a ridiculously simple NPC, identical to all other of the same level and class.

It'd be cool to see some sort of program that would take some basic input like race, class, and level, as well as some other categories, but that'd be hard as hell to design.

I suppose there's always the "just wing it" approach, where you know if you're making a warrior type of level 8, that it should have a BAB of 8 and other suitable stats, and just fudge it all, but I find that highly unsatisfying.

[violence in the media]

As an extension to that, an actual book of composite encounters (above and beyond the minor suggestions typically presented) to supplement the Monster Manual would be a nice touch.

You wouldn't want them to be super specific, nor would you want them to include copius backstory (I really don't want these giants or drow to be individuals), but instead be "typical" associations that could serve as drop-in encounters as well as remind everyone that each creature in the world doesn't live in isolation.

So, for example, you have the goblin warparty encounter, where all the goblins are mounted on worgs and are statted out as mounted archers or lancers and maybe they have a burly worg leader with a goblin shaman in tow. And you can scale this encounter by adding or subtracting goblin+worg units to it, but you don't have to dick around with giving standard goblins the mounted combat feat or ranks in Ride or statting out a goblin with 3 levels of shaman or an advanced worg.

[Xur]

I think in 3E you can only ease Mr Caverns workload so much, because you cannot prepare for anything that may happen (unless you have some really extensive rolling charts, but I am not that much of a fan of that). I use to carry some prep materials with me that saved my sorry ass mor than once:

- Names. Maybe the most important prep material Mr Cavern can have: lots of names for peoples and locations. Salvage historical cultures like the Sumerians, Aztecs or whatever for exotic stuff, but leave apostrophes for everyones sanity.

- Prepared NPCs of various classes and levels. I always have an assortment of characters at lvl1, lvl3, and lvl6 ready (higher levels only if we make it that far). One sheet per NPC covering all three versions' stats in a table, plus some names, backgrounds, motivations and stuff. If I need to come up with a NPC on the fly, I'll note down something like "ranger 3, story 2, link x to the players" to flesh him out later after the game in case he becomes important.
I'd like to see if NPC generators can enhance this approach if you use a netbook while gaming, because you can throw in a template, flaws and anything else on it with a click.

- Maps. I have some castles, houses, inns, dungeons, and wilderness locations, both as grid maps and as overview maps. Cut-out map tiles work great with this, but others may prefer dry/erase maps or whatever.

Other than this I don't think you can really ease the role of Mr Cavern enough to make it anything more attractive to mainstream players, not in 3E and any derived versions of it - unless your gaming style or group dynamics vary greatly from the norm

[mean_liar]

I suppose there's always the "just wing it" approach, where you know if you're making a warrior type of level 8, that it should have a BAB of 8 and other suitable stats, and just fudge it all, but I find that highly unsatisfying.

I like it the best, and use that method all the time except for keynote antagonists. Not only that, but...

So, for example, you have the goblin warparty encounter, where all the goblins are mounted on worgs and are statted out as mounted archers or lancers and maybe they have a burly worg leader with a goblin shaman in tow. And you can scale this encounter by adding or subtracting goblin+worg units to it, but you don't have to dick around with giving standard goblins the mounted combat feat or ranks in Ride or statting out a goblin with 3 levels of shaman or an advanced worg.

...I prefer looking at a statblock and eyeballing an advance.


...


All that is predicated on DnDv3.x though.

To deal with the main point, I think making Mr Cavern's job as painless as possible is something we can all agree on, but doing that needs to be fleshed out.

I think the feature I liked best about 4e was its prep requirements. I knew how much XP to dole out, how much to provide, and with the right spreadsheets I could quickly generate a list of 10-20 thematically- and level-appropriate enemies to choose from. Prep time took maybe 45min - enough to bang it out on a commute, no troubles.

For me it was the gold standard for Mr Cavern prep, and had the two big tools in it that I felt the DIE MR CAVERN engine would need:

1. benchmarks on progression and rewards
2. digital, sortable tagged enemies list

The only thing I felt like it was lacking regarding DIE MR CAVERN is that which Mr Cavern provides already: fighting algorithms.

Otherwise, its pretty awesome and I think it ought to be the model for the exaltation of Mr Cavern for future games.

[Zinegata]

*sigh* We are never going to use the term DM and GM again, are we?

Anyway, to answer your question, I think there's also a lack of general how-to resources regarding how to DM. Monster Manuals and better Monster Manuals are nice and all, but encounter preparation is but one part of the DM's overall job.

How about campaign creation guides? Guides for giving NPCs motivations and plot hooks? How to deal with the needs and wants of your players?

Because honestly, most RPGs seem to be devoting less and less space on DM tips, so most DMs have to learn on-the-go or under the tutelage of an older DM.

[hogarth]

*sigh* We are never going to use the term DM and GM again, are we?

Yeah, and what's with all of these people saying "shibboleth" when it's really pronounced "sibboleth"? That's retarded.

-Hogarth the Ephraimite

[Josh_Kablack]

The biggest aid for Mr. Cavern is monster books. As long as I have a stack of Monster Manuals, I can run sandbox in any setting for as long as required. There is a reason why in 1977 the Monster Manual came out before any other books. It's because having premade encounters makes Mister Cavern's life relatively easy, which in turn gives more empowerment to the PCs

As an addendum, the monsters in the books need to be relatively balanced against PCs of appropriate level.

Way too much of the higher level stuff in 3.x is no challenge for higher level characters; way too many of the monsters in 3rd and 4th edition are completely vulnerable to PCs who mounted archery (or flying spellzapping). On the flipside 3.X is full of closet trolls while 4th has monsters with hidden stunlocks

If those shenanigans sneak past MC, then the players get disempowered through either trivial victories and total party kills. And if MC has to edit those sort of things on the fly that makes prebuilt monsters much less useful. (although a system can provide rules for quick and easy adjustments to monsters)

[JonSetanta]

The part about winging it I hate the most is item distribution.

Most of the times I say fuck it, what do you want? Here, take it, if it's minor.

But I bought "GameMastery" item cards months ago. Very cool. Simple picture on each one for generic item types, I can grab a few, shuffle up, and draw.

"You got a sword." *roll enhancements* +1 Ghost Touch.

[TheFlatline]

The biggest aid for Mr. Cavern is monster books. As long as I have a stack of Monster Manuals, I can run sandbox in any setting for as long as required. There is a reason why in 1977 the Monster Manual came out before any other books. It's because having premade encounters makes Mister Cavern's life relatively easy, which in turn gives more empowerment to the PCs.

-Username17

This. Shortly after 3rd edition came out, I bought the Monster Manual, and nothing else. I ran a full campaign out of the Monster Manual, peeking at a DMG that I borrowed momentarily for treasure charts. Everything else I just winged on the fly. It wasn't hard with stacks of monsters for the players to kill.

One thing I'd like to see are really well developed quick NPC sheets for Mr. Cavern. I've seen them a-plenty for shadowrun, and I"ve made them for my grimdark games, and they help a lot. When I do actually stat out an NPC, I write him down in the cast list. Then, when I need an NPC that has stats, I run to the cast list and pick someone that looks sort of appropriate, re-equip him, and I"m off in seconds.

[RobbyPants]

I made two versions of those for myself. One would fit 5 NPCs on a page, which was basically race/class/level data and a description, but no actual combat stats. The other fit 3 NPCs on a page with all of the important combat stats.

It did help.

[DragonChild]

Something that I've been considering for a while:

Have an easy monster-creation-table.

Pick a few subtypes of monsters like 4e had (Brute, Ranged, Flanker, Elite?), and ALL stats for these types at every level in a nice big table.

Then have a list of modifiers you can easily pull out that are also easy to remember, and are specifically tooled for encounter size.

So you if need a group of brutes and their elite leader, you know what stats they have - you know the brutes need 1 action and 1 passive ability, while the elite needs 3 action and 1 passive ability.

Action abilities include minor, tight spellcasting, breath weapons, laser eyes, whatever. Passive includes flight, burrowing, modifiers to AC/HP/etc.

Make it so the DM can call for a bathroom break, and have an encounter prepared before the first player finishes peeing. I've been considering setting up one of these for a custom game I'm tooling around with.

[Severian]

This topic has given me an idea. Probably a retarded one, but we'll see where it goes

[Caedrus]

I think in 3E you can only ease Mr Caverns workload so much

Well, suggestions need not just be for 3e.

This topic has given me an idea. Probably a retarded one, but we'll see where it goes

Mind sharing what the idea is?

The biggest aid for Mr. Cavern is monster books. As long as I have a stack of Monster Manuals, I can run sandbox in any setting for as long as required. There is a reason why in 1977 the Monster Manual came out before any other books. It's because having premade encounters makes Mister Cavern's life relatively easy, which in turn gives more empowerment to the PCs.

-Username17

Definitely. But the question is what else can be done besides having a bigger pile of premade foes?

____


Another issue that I'd point out as problematic for Mr. Cavern is tracking wealth and making sure players keep in line with "expected wealth." Another thing to think about solutions for.

[JonSetanta]

I made two versions of those for myself. One would fit 5 NPCs on a page, which was basically race/class/level data and a description, but no actual combat stats. The other fit 3 NPCs on a page with all of the important combat stats.

It did help.

Interesting. I was thinking of index cards since it's more modular though


Months ago I also bought blank dice. Like, a whole set, and bunch of d6s.
They still sit on my table, blank, but the possibilities are endless.
I think first I'll make a d6 with E, W, and M on two sides each, for Expert, Warrior, and Mage random class archetype rolling.

Maybe a race die. Maybe a bell curve die. I don't know yet.

[Zinegata]

Dice are a bit restrictive depending on the number of sides it has though. i.e. What if you want to have 7 races and you only have d6s?

[JonSetanta]

Dice are a bit restrictive depending on the number of sides it has though. i.e. What if you want to have 7 races and you only have d6s?

I have a d12.. heh
I'll just put "H" for Human on more sides.
Or something.

[Username17]

Definitely. But the question is what else can be done besides having a bigger pile of premade foes?

Better scalability of foes. Templates were a good idea, but they take too long to implement. Ideally making a Stone Gorilla should take as long as setting out a new race for Small World.

4e was on to something when they had base stats for a 12th level lurker and templates that upgraded things to "elite" on the same chart. It's just that they crapped out and didn't actually bother to deliver numbers that work or ability lists.

But if your game actually functioned when someone dragged and dropped a 7th level skirmisher or an 8th level elite brute onto the field, that would make procedural generation go really fast. I don't even care (much) if the auto-generation requires a computer these days. I do own one. But it does have to spit out consistent and reliable results, which neither the 3e nor 4e monster maker do.

Another issue that I'd point out as problematic for Mr. Cavern is tracking wealth and making sure players keep in line with "expected wealth." Another thing to think about solutions for.

Expected wealth needs to die actually. Crap like capes of resistance are basically bad for the game, and having expected levels of resistance capes at various levels is more insulting still.

Hand out a level range where you expect people to have weapons that are magical, and move on with your life. The 3e Wealth By Level system was a step backwards from the 2nd edition AD&D magic item system. And considering what a catastofuck that was, that's quite an achievement.

-Username17

[Zinegata]

Dice are a bit restrictive depending on the number of sides it has though. i.e. What if you want to have 7 races and you only have d6s?

I have a d12.. heh
I'll just put "H" for Human on more sides.
Or something.

Well, yes, but what if you have 13 races?

I'm just pointing out that dice have some limitations, because they're stuck at being d6s, d12s, etc.

I think cards may be a bit better, because you can easily modify the probabilities by adding more or less cards.

For instance, I'm running an anti-Orc campaign, so my deck will probably have 2 Goblin Cards, 5 Orc cards, 1 Ogre Card, and 1 Warg card.

If an anti-Goblin campaign, I can probably take out all but 1 Orc card, add in 3 more Goblin cards and another Warg card.

You could also have a rule where once a card is drawn, it can't be re-drawn until the deck runs out. So in the anti-Orc example, you're sure that you'll fight an Ogre once in 9 encounters.

In short, while dice are nice, I think cards are more versatile for creating random encounters. You could even add the special rules for those race in the cards already to make it not just a randomization tool, but also as a rules reminder tool.

[TheFlatline]

Better scalability of foes. Templates were a good idea, but they take too long to implement. Ideally making a Stone Gorilla should take as long as setting out a new race for Small World.

In Spycraft NPCs were actually a brick of dice modifiers that changed based on the PC's level.

Damage for mooks was also handled as a save DC, and each hit/10 points of damage/whatever inflicted per hit raised the save DC when taking damage by 1 or something like that. Crits just flat out killed mooks. Only important characters got the traditional stat block and skill block.

It made for bland, albeit readily available and scalable baddies. It *might* work for varied monsters, but you're essentially running into the issue that goblins are always effectively X levels below the PCs, and dragons are X levels *above* PCs.

Still, it was a radical approach to NPCs. Took about 30 seconds to create an entire class of NPCs, and you could *always* use that stat block, forever, levels 1-20. Upgrading them was really quick since the math was fairly linear and compact.

[TheFlatline]

Definitely. But the question is what else can be done besides having a bigger pile of premade foes?

For me? Little shit. Publish a 100 page softback that is built to make NPC generation easier. Include a town/village/city generator, built a cultural generator, where 4 or 5 rolls tells you the major industries in an area, how xenophobic it is, how much it trades with other lands, etc etc.

A really good list of character names that I can pick off of. Like, if you're not looking at at least 100 male and female names, it's not big enough. Break down into common/peasant, middle class, and aristocracy as well. Perhaps species names as well but that's pushing.

Charts of one word personality descriptors that I could browse/roll off of and pick something interesting (I do this already, but having it all localized would rock). For example I pick two at random. Racist and gregarious. Roll up on a random race chart "elves". Can we say southern good ol' boy redneck who's otherwise the spitting image of hospitality?

Inn name generators. Every fucking adventure begins and ends in an inn, and the more creative we can get the better (The Cock & Bulls inn gets old after a while).

A list of typical professions you'd find in a hamlet, village, town, city, and metropolis.

Here's an odd one- A generator of climate change. Say you're in the forest and go wandering north. You roll on the forest terminator chart- Savannah. The trees thin out and you're in grass fields and lands. Keep going north and you roll again- Desert. The sands die out and the lands grow harsh, hot, and dry. Go east now- Badlands. The sand and rubble has given away to god-awful barren sedimentary deposits and so on and so forth. I could literally roll an entire continent's biology/basic geography this way in an hour or two with some graph paper and a little effort.

Of course, this is all for sandbox shit. A lot of it I already do myself, but a professional effort could expand on a lot of it.

[Username17]

A really good list of character names that I can pick off of.

Oh hell yes. The most useful 3rd party gaming supplement I have ever owned was just a set of name lists from a bunch of cultures. It was incredibly useful. Since every NPC needs a name.

-Username17

[Caedrus]

A really good list of character names that I can pick off of.

Oh hell yes. The most useful 3rd party gaming supplement I have ever owned was just a set of name lists from a bunch of cultures. It was incredibly useful. Since every NPC needs a name.

-Username17

Might I ask which supplement that is? Because that does sound useful.

[Sashi]

Random Name Generator + Word Processor = As many custom name lists as you like.