Look at this.
CBM 1.7 wrote:Dwarven Hammer unique
So since Dom 3 is being discussed
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Turn sent. A while back actually, I forgot to post.
Dwarven hammer is good. It's not broken though, and doesn't need to be 'fixed'. It forms a component of a strategy, it isn't a strategy in itself.
Dwarven hammer is good. It's not broken though, and doesn't need to be 'fixed'. It forms a component of a strategy, it isn't a strategy in itself.
Last edited by Orca on Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
And instead of addressing that by making the hammer a higher research level and reducing the costs of items, or making the hammer cost more and tweaking item costs, it is now gone and nations like EA/MA Vanheim and Tir na n'Og and Eriu cry because they now have no midgame.Zinegata wrote:To be fair, Dwarven Hammer is one of the best items in the game. Better than most of the artifacts even.
CBM is attempting to make simple changes to complex issues and they are fucking the game up in the doing. The reasons I have heard for the change are, "it was a no brainer to get hammers!" and, "less hammer micromanagement!" But hammers effect so much of the game, in combat they mean that small thugs are more expensive to the point of uselessness, and also mean that boosters are almost impossible to deploy for combat magic. But fuck if CBM thought of that, they either saw hammers as too ubiquitous or not fun enough and ignored the way they impact the game.
Claiming that taking out dwarven hammers will invalidate the midgame of several nations does actually point to it being pretty uber. The only other artifact that I recall which is that important is possibly the Grail, as it unlocks Tart-spamming.
Moreover, the problem isn't "simple changes to correct complex problems". The problem really is that Dominion has so many nations that it's almost impossible to make any changes without upsetting somebody's applecart.
Dominion wasn't really hugely balanced to begin with. Lots of nations sucked (i.e. Ulm).
And frankly, I kinda sense that what they were really trying to aim for was to make Ulm stronger. Ulm's schtick is supposed to be cheaper forging. It largely gets invalidated because everyone else can easily get hammers anyway.
Although given that they made Hammers unique and they made Forge of the Ancients available for Ulm right from the get-go, maybe they went a little too far in upping Ulm.
Moreover, the problem isn't "simple changes to correct complex problems". The problem really is that Dominion has so many nations that it's almost impossible to make any changes without upsetting somebody's applecart.
Dominion wasn't really hugely balanced to begin with. Lots of nations sucked (i.e. Ulm).
And frankly, I kinda sense that what they were really trying to aim for was to make Ulm stronger. Ulm's schtick is supposed to be cheaper forging. It largely gets invalidated because everyone else can easily get hammers anyway.
Although given that they made Hammers unique and they made Forge of the Ancients available for Ulm right from the get-go, maybe they went a little too far in upping Ulm.
Making the dwarven hammer unique is a massive debuff to pretty much every nation that has E2 mages who possess feet. including Ulm, it only improves them relative to those nations. Now they can't get a 45% discount on every earth/fire item. Forge bonuses stack additively, so dwarven hammers allow them to get even cheaper items. Admittedly, national forge of the ancients is potentially stupidly overpowered.
Last edited by name_here on Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
I gotta divide the bullshit up here, because this post is full of it. It doesn't invalidate midgame strategies, it takes away the only real midgame that some nations have, and makes thugs, synthetic communions, water magic, death magic, and sometimes fire magic far to expensive to deploy in battle for many nations. Talking about enabling one (very powerful) endgame build is very different from enabling multiple midgame strategies that no one was complaining over.Zinegata wrote:Claiming that taking out dwarven hammers will invalidate the midgame of several nations does actually point to it being pretty uber. The only other artifact that I recall which is that important is possibly the Grail, as it unlocks Tart-spamming.
If you add the word single to the statement, "impossible to make any change." you end up with exactly what I said. The game is complex and the change was implemented without consideration for its effects, so it was a simple change to a complex system that is creating new problems.Moreover, the problem isn't "simple changes to correct complex problems". The problem really is that Dominion has so many nations that it's almost impossible to make any changes without upsetting somebody's applecart.
Dominions has some turkey nations. But most of the nations have a lot of ways that they can be played and a number of options at any point in the game. The nations like MA Ulm and Oceania or EA Agartha and R'lyeh are far outnumbered by the nations that can compete.Dominion wasn't really hugely balanced to begin with. Lots of nations sucked (i.e. Ulm).
Wrong, the man behind the mod said that the reasons were 1) reduce micromanagement, and 2) remove a "no brainer" decision. And Ulm gets really easy hammers in all eras, with a strong earth income to make them more easily, having hammers in the game made Ulm a stronger forge power, not a weaker one.And frankly, I kinda sense that what they were really trying to aim for was to make Ulm stronger. Ulm's schtick is supposed to be cheaper forging. It largely gets invalidated because everyone else can easily get hammers anyway.
Not really, I think they went about balancing Ulm the wrong way. Personally I would reduce the encumbrance of their armor and give the troops reinvigoration, make priest smiths recruit anywhere and give them better randoms on the regular smiths, then I would add a E2 D2 S2 (no forge bonus) cap only mage and call them masters of the enigma or something. Forge of the ancients is the equivalent of declaring war on the world, Ulm just doesn't have the chops to do that unless they are already winning. The only thing this does is make it less likely that the forge will be dispelled the turn after it goes up, it won't change the fact that Ulm will get ganged up on if they pull it out.Although given that they made Hammers unique and they made Forge of the Ancients available for Ulm right from the get-go, maybe they went a little too far in upping Ulm.
Again, if it's the key to the midgame of several nations, doesn't that make this particular item extremely powerful and valuable? Certainly more valuable than a statue that turns into Sir Percival?Akula wrote:It doesn't invalidate midgame strategies, it takes away the only real midgame that some nations have, and makes thugs, synthetic communions, water magic, death magic, and sometimes fire magic far to expensive to deploy in battle for many nations. Talking about enabling one (very powerful) endgame build is very different from enabling multiple midgame strategies that no one was complaining over.
And how would your proposed solution - which is to increase the item level of Dwarven Hammers - help matters any? If you're spending more time researching Construction, you're not researching stuff that gets you water, death, and fire magic that can be used in battle. That also puts you behind on your midgame.
Regardless of what you do, some nations are gonna get shafted in Dominions regardless. That's why any change in Dominion is ultimately an arbitrary change. Like how they keep saying tarts are good but they don't really try to nerf it.
And yet he also gave Ulm Forge of the Ancients as a level 0 research, which, when cast, is basically the same thing as giving everyone of his forgers a Hammer.Wrong, the man behind the mod said that the reasons were 1) reduce micromanagement, and 2) remove a "no brainer" decision. And Ulm gets really easy hammers in all eras, with a strong earth income to make them more easily, having hammers in the game made Ulm a stronger forge power, not a weaker one.
To me, it seems that their goal really is to make Ulm the only nation with any item discounts, and fuck everyone else.
Giving Ulm troops that actually do something and decent combat mages will just more or less turn them into EA Ermor.Not really, I think they went about balancing Ulm the wrong way. Personally I would reduce the encumbrance of their armor and give the troops reinvigoration, make priest smiths recruit anywhere and give them better randoms on the regular smiths, then I would add a E2 D2 S2 (no forge bonus) cap only mage and call them masters of the enigma or something. Forge of the ancients is the equivalent of declaring war on the world, Ulm just doesn't have the chops to do that unless they are already winning. The only thing this does is make it less likely that the forge will be dispelled the turn after it goes up, it won't change the fact that Ulm will get ganged up on if they pull it out.
And having only one country with real forging discounts may change the metagame a bit. The natural reaction of most players to somebody casting a Global is to kill them, but Forge doesn't actually actively harm most most people. Heck, if the Ulm player declares he's gonna be an item mart people may want to avoid killing him because he's the only one who can give them cheap items now.
Also, those other guys who used to research Construction to get Hammers? What if they go straight to researching Battle Magic now instead?
Frankly, I understand that the Dwarven Hammers thing is a big change, but I'm not going to readily call it retarded. Because Dwarven Hammers are rather overpowered, to the point that everyone and their mom wants one. It'd be interesting to see if anyone can come up with ways to make nations like Vanheim work even without them, or if there's really no other way to make them good besides cheaper items.
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I have asked Akula to post the turn 30 zip, since Mediafire is being lame again.
Last edited by Avoraciopoctules on Mon Nov 22, 2010 4:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The basic problem with CBM is that he is incapable of telling the difference between something that is used frequently in his own circles and something that is overpowered. Or of telling the difference between something he rarely uses for stylistic reasons and something that is actually underpowered. That is why he decided to ban the fucking Dwarven Hammer, the Dousing Rod, and the Clam of Pearls - and also why he decided that Bone Fiends and Dark Vines needed to be several times cheaper. People always use foundational economy items of their national economies, so obviously they use those because they are over powered, and not because those are a basic part of the economy of the game. It's the same logic that might lead you to ban Holy Symbols, Iron Rations, and Military Saddles in D&D. Or to buff the Commoner class.
But that sort of thing is boringly predictable in CBM's slow descent into micromanagement and madness. The real gems of CBM 1.7 is based on the fact that everything that works in a way he didn't expect is assumed to be an exploit. Which is why he is nerfing Life After Death. I know you've probably never used Life After Death, because all it does is replace your fallen living soldiers with soulless for the duration of the battle. Not even soulless warriors, just regular meat shield soulless. It's... good for a Breath of Winter strategy or something because it takes that much longer to hack through your troops. But naked soulless aren't really capable of accomplishing military goals on their own. But it's being nerfed because... you could use it to turn your mages into soulless who don't cost upkeep. Never mind that you could do that way easier with much lower level magic making Wight Mages.
Or how about nerfing Jade Knives? Why? Because dominion rush strategies work at all? I mean, when was the last time you heard anyone say that Sauromatia was overpowered because of Dominion Rush? Maybe... never? That strategy isn't being nerfed because it's too good, or because it's used particularly often, but merely because it "feels cheap" when it works.
What it comes down to is that CBM has finally become a parody of itself. It never claimed to be about international balancing, it was always just supposed to be about making more different strategies "viable" within each particular nation. A silly goal, considering that the strategies that are viable are already heavily dependent upon the metagame you find yourself in, but whatever. Now that QM has finally gotten down to the brass tacks of eliminating strategies that displease him aesthetically, he has revealed CBM for what it always was: a complete fucking waste of time. It isn't about making more strategies valid, or he wouldn't be invalidating strategies (including frankly obscure strategies like Grip of Winter + Life After Death + Expensive Human Mages). It isn't about improving international balance, or he wouldn't be nerfing marginal nations like Eriu. Or buffing powerful nations like Niefelheim.
It's an incredible amount of work, and it is all wasted. All of it. You can't even fish out the good ideas from the bad because it's all jumbled together into a pile of spaghetti code that makes no sense. Every change is essentially random, so you'd actually be better off starting completely from scratch when making your own balance mod. Nothing is added to the game by changing Scorpion Beasts from being too expensive to use except in an emergency to being too cheap to bother using other things.
There is only one strategy left in CBM 1.7 - get Conjuration and/or Blood 3 or so, summon a bunch of low level stuff, and go on a fucking rampage. It's worse than being unbalanced and stupid - it's boring and stupid.
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But that sort of thing is boringly predictable in CBM's slow descent into micromanagement and madness. The real gems of CBM 1.7 is based on the fact that everything that works in a way he didn't expect is assumed to be an exploit. Which is why he is nerfing Life After Death. I know you've probably never used Life After Death, because all it does is replace your fallen living soldiers with soulless for the duration of the battle. Not even soulless warriors, just regular meat shield soulless. It's... good for a Breath of Winter strategy or something because it takes that much longer to hack through your troops. But naked soulless aren't really capable of accomplishing military goals on their own. But it's being nerfed because... you could use it to turn your mages into soulless who don't cost upkeep. Never mind that you could do that way easier with much lower level magic making Wight Mages.
Or how about nerfing Jade Knives? Why? Because dominion rush strategies work at all? I mean, when was the last time you heard anyone say that Sauromatia was overpowered because of Dominion Rush? Maybe... never? That strategy isn't being nerfed because it's too good, or because it's used particularly often, but merely because it "feels cheap" when it works.
What it comes down to is that CBM has finally become a parody of itself. It never claimed to be about international balancing, it was always just supposed to be about making more different strategies "viable" within each particular nation. A silly goal, considering that the strategies that are viable are already heavily dependent upon the metagame you find yourself in, but whatever. Now that QM has finally gotten down to the brass tacks of eliminating strategies that displease him aesthetically, he has revealed CBM for what it always was: a complete fucking waste of time. It isn't about making more strategies valid, or he wouldn't be invalidating strategies (including frankly obscure strategies like Grip of Winter + Life After Death + Expensive Human Mages). It isn't about improving international balance, or he wouldn't be nerfing marginal nations like Eriu. Or buffing powerful nations like Niefelheim.
It's an incredible amount of work, and it is all wasted. All of it. You can't even fish out the good ideas from the bad because it's all jumbled together into a pile of spaghetti code that makes no sense. Every change is essentially random, so you'd actually be better off starting completely from scratch when making your own balance mod. Nothing is added to the game by changing Scorpion Beasts from being too expensive to use except in an emergency to being too cheap to bother using other things.
There is only one strategy left in CBM 1.7 - get Conjuration and/or Blood 3 or so, summon a bunch of low level stuff, and go on a fucking rampage. It's worse than being unbalanced and stupid - it's boring and stupid.
-Username17
Playing semantic games much?
I think one would be hard-pressed to simply call Dwarven Hammers as a foundation of a nation's economy, as opposed to an overpowered item, given that the only other thing that can replicate its effects is a Global Enchantment that (used to be) at the end of a spell research tree OR a rare site that grants a construction discount.
It'd be like condoning putting a Wish-equivalent spell at level 3.
As for the arbitrary thing, yes, it's gonna end up arbitrary no matter what you do. As for how well it plays, I don't really know how well or badly CBM plays. I think none of us here play it anyway.
I think one would be hard-pressed to simply call Dwarven Hammers as a foundation of a nation's economy, as opposed to an overpowered item, given that the only other thing that can replicate its effects is a Global Enchantment that (used to be) at the end of a spell research tree OR a rare site that grants a construction discount.
It'd be like condoning putting a Wish-equivalent spell at level 3.
As for the arbitrary thing, yes, it's gonna end up arbitrary no matter what you do. As for how well it plays, I don't really know how well or badly CBM plays. I think none of us here play it anyway.
So the uniqueness of a mechanic makes that mechanic OVERPOWERED and IMBA? So obviously the Flying Ship is the most powerful Artifact. I have tried to explain that this item is FOUNDATIONAL to a large number of completely reasonable strategies. I will try one more time. When I go to outfit a thug for Vanheim, I can spend either 15 earth gems and 10 fire gems for the thug gear I want or I can spend 26 earth gems upfront and then pay 10 earth and 6 fire. When I am outfitting 2 thugs per turn, this is saving me 9 gems per turn (and has cost me 48 gems), without it I will have serious difficulties sustaining the pace or recovering from losses. As I have slow research and expensive mages I need to thug them out, I don't have a choice but to suck up the losses or to send them in with less gear.Zinegata wrote:Playing semantic games much?
I think one would be hard-pressed to simply call Dwarven Hammers as a foundation of a nation's economy, as opposed to an overpowered item, given that the only other thing that can replicate its effects is a Global Enchantment that (used to be) at the end of a spell research tree OR a rare site that grants a construction discount.
If I am MA Ti'en Ch'i I can try a synthetic communions strategy for my Alchemists, and later my ministers of magic. This costs roughly 40 astral and 35 earth without a hammer for each communion I want to field. With hammers I can get this for about 26 astral and 22 earth. It just isn't cost effective to pay twice as much for the communions.
No, no it wouldn't you stupid shit. Let us compare Forge and Dwarven Hammers. Forge costs much more RP, but for that you get: higher paths when forging, a larger discount, and no slots being spent. It isn't even close, hammer forging shit is nice, but it isn't even in the same league as the mass forging that you can do with the forge.It'd be like condoning putting a Wish-equivalent spell at level 3.
I would have thought that. But the people on that invisionfree board are all screaming about how dominion pushing is "unstoppable" and you "can't hold it off" or some such shit.FrankTrollman wrote:Or how about nerfing Jade Knives? Why? Because dominion rush strategies work at all? I mean, when was the last time you heard anyone say that Sauromatia was overpowered because of Dominion Rush? Maybe... never? That strategy isn't being nerfed because it's too good, or because it's used particularly often, but merely because it "feels cheap" when it works.
I never said "uniqueness". I said that Dwarven Hammers have an effect that is generally replicated by only two things: An end-of-the line Global Enhantment, and a rare random site.Akula wrote:So the uniqueness of a mechanic makes that mechanic OVERPOWERED and IMBA? So obviously the Flying Ship is the most powerful Artifact. I have tried to explain that this item is FOUNDATIONAL to a large number of completely reasonable strategies.
In short, it's very hard to get forge discounts otherwise.
I already understood it before without your example. Again: Everyone and their mom wants Dwarven Hammers. Because it lets them forge stuff more cheaply early on which enables some strategies.I will try one more time. When I go to outfit a thug for Vanheim...
...It just isn't cost effective to pay twice as much for the communions.
By taking out Hammers, many of these strategies are shut down. So CBM players should either find new strategies (and may pleasantly surprise us), or they will prove that there really should be cheaper items across the board to enable certain nations to remain competitive.
Yes, yes, start with the name-calling. I don't give a shit.No, no it wouldn't you stupid shit. Let us compare Forge and Dwarven Hammers. Forge costs much more RP, but for that you get: higher paths when forging, a larger discount, and no slots being spent. It isn't even close, hammer forging shit is nice, but it isn't even in the same league as the mass forging that you can do with the forge.
Forge of the Ancients is also announced to everyone, takes very long to get online, and can be dispelled. +1 paths is nice, as is the larger discount (free slots though? Not really useful except for Death boosters).
But the MAIN reason why you get Forge of the Ancients is STILL the discounts. Heck, most people think FoTA is cost-effective even if you just hold on to it for 1 turn because of the gem savings!
So, again, is it okay to base your entire economy on an item which replicated a Wish effect at level 3 instead of level 9? Doesn't that point to some glaring inconsistency to the game's balance that a low-level item is arguably better than an end-game Forge of the Ancients because you can get Dwarven Hammers a lot earlier and you don't have to advertise this fact to the rest of the world? (And those hammers can't be taken from you, unlike Forge of the Ancients which can be dispelled?)
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Anyway, the point is that the Dominion economy is full of weird arbitrary stuff even without CBM. Like how Water Gems have Clams that allow them to be converted to Astral Gems, and Blood can be turned to Earth Gems using stones, but other conversion items don't exist.
I understand that people have taken these items and used them to create entirely new strategies. I really do.
But let's not pretend that these were meant to be an integral part of the economy. Otherwise, every type of magic should have a gem-generating item.
Dwarven Hammer is one of them. Have them out early, start forging, and you will probably end up saving more gems than casting FOTA. If the economy were to be more balanced, then either Dwarven Hammer shouldn't be out there, or you should add a lot more ways to get forge-boosters.
(And yes, I'm talking in terms of "complete overhaul". Not the piecemeal CBM approach which just adds more arbitrary to arbitrary)
Last edited by Zinegata on Mon Nov 22, 2010 8:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
EDIT: Because no one wants to see a long response to Zinegata not getting the point.
The rest of your complaint is like saying that a Bane Lord is better than a Tartarian because the bane lord is going to help you in 3 wars while the Tartarian will only decide the last one or two, so the bane lord will get more kills. You could argue that, but I wouldn't take it seriously.
So, Zinegata. I'm going to read one more response from you on this issue, and if you don't act like you have some sense, I'm going to stop responding here.
And I'm amused that all the mercenaries have gone completely unrecruited. Including Master Gibur and some dudes that would be reasonably effective against R'lyeh chaff.
See, this is why talking to you can be like talking to a brick wall. Could you read that as written instead of how you intended to say it for a few seconds?Zinegata wrote:I never said "uniqueness". I said that Dwarven Hammers have an effect that is generally replicated by only two things: An end-of-the line Global Enhantment, and a rare random site.
CBM is supposed to be about adding options. This removes them. It makes strong nations stronger, and weak nations weaker. This is CBM shitting itself.I already understood it before without your example. Again: Everyone and their mom wants Dwarven Hammers. Because it lets them forge stuff more cheaply early on which enables some strategies.
By taking out Hammers, many of these strategies are shut down. So CBM players should either find new strategies (and may pleasantly surprise us), or they will prove that there really should be cheaper items across the board to enable certain nations to remain competitive.
Because everyone can forge with a discount. Let me say that again. EVERYONE can forge with a discount. To get that coverage with dwarven hammers would cost so many gems that it would cease to be an efficient strategy.Forge of the Ancients is also announced to everyone, takes very long to get online, and can be dispelled. +1 paths is nice, as is the larger discount (free slots though? Not really useful except for Death boosters).
But the MAIN reason why you get Forge of the Ancients is STILL the discounts. Heck, most people think FoTA is cost-effective even if you just hold on to it for 1 turn because of the gem savings!
Do you even know what a "wish effect" is? Wish does fucking everything.So, again, is it okay to base your entire economy on an item which replicated a Wish effect at level 3 instead of level 9? Doesn't that point to some glaring inconsistency to the game's balance that a low-level item is arguably better than an end-game Forge of the Ancients because you can get Dwarven Hammers a lot earlier and you don't have to advertise this fact to the rest of the world? (And those hammers can't be taken from you, unlike Forge of the Ancients which can be dispelled?
The rest of your complaint is like saying that a Bane Lord is better than a Tartarian because the bane lord is going to help you in 3 wars while the Tartarian will only decide the last one or two, so the bane lord will get more kills. You could argue that, but I wouldn't take it seriously.
Big astral is stupid expensive, you need 65 gems to forge a ring of wizardry, and 100 to cast wish; plus it takes about 60 pearls to gear up one guy to master enslave. And some nations really do get shit that is overpriced without gemgens. Bandar Log's celestials are awesome, but they cost too much if you cannot clam.Anyway, the point is that the Dominion economy is full of weird arbitrary stuff even without CBM. Like how Water Gems have Clams that allow them to be converted to Astral Gems, and Blood can be turned to Earth Gems using stones, but other conversion items don't exist.
No, you don't. It is possible to make things that need earth and astral and fire cost just a little bit more to represent that they can be generated.I understand that people have taken these items and used them to create entirely new strategies. I really do.
Bullshit, show your numbers about forge and Dwarven hammers when the forger is trying to forge 400+ gems worth of items in one turn.Dwarven Hammer is one of them. Have them out early, start forging, and you will probably end up saving more gems than casting FOTA. If the economy were to be more balanced, then either Dwarven Hammer shouldn't be out there, or you should add a lot more ways to get forge-boosters.
You are supremely ignorant of the limitations of item modification aren't you?(And yes, I'm talking in terms of "complete overhaul". Not the piecemeal CBM approach which just adds more arbitrary to arbitrary)
So, Zinegata. I'm going to read one more response from you on this issue, and if you don't act like you have some sense, I'm going to stop responding here.
Last edited by Akula on Mon Nov 22, 2010 9:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
Akula wrote:See, this is why talking to you can be like talking to a brick wall. Could you read that as written instead of how you intended to say it for a few seconds?
Let's read it as written again, shall we? Again, read the conclusion:
"It'd be like condoning putting a Wish-equivalent spell at level 3."
So when I said:
"an overpowered item, given that the only other thing that can replicate its effects is a Global Enchantment that (used to be) at the end of a spell research tree"
My emphasis was clearly NOT on the uniqueness aspect. It's the "end of a spell research tree" aspect.
So can you now stop pretending that you hadn't made a mistake by using that Flying Ship example?
I don't really care. None of us use CBM anyway. And like I already said, CBM just piles arbitrary on top of arbitrary.CBM is supposed to be about adding options. This removes them. It makes strong nations stronger, and weak nations weaker. This is CBM shitting itself.
That's why I'm more interested in seeing if they can find some alternate strats. If they do, great. If not, then it really does mean everyone needs cheaper items.
Because everyone can forge with a discount. Let me say that again. EVERYONE can forge with a discount. To get that coverage with dwarven hammers would cost so many gems that it would cease to be an efficient strategy.
Again, I know the rules. And you're forgetting three things:
1) With 80 Earth gems you can get at least 5 Dwarven Hammers as opposed to 1 casting of FOTA.
2) You often don't really need more than 5 Hammers if you're just thug-equipping.
3) You can get those 5 Hammers way earlier, because Hammers are Construction 2.
#3 is particularly important. Because you can start saving gems years before you even get FOTA.
However...
Bullshit, show your numbers about forge and Dwarven hammers when the forger is trying to forge 400+ gems worth of items in one turn.
I said "Have them out early, start forging, and you will probably end up saving more gems" and yet you seriously thought I was talking about a one turn comparison?
I mean, it's seriously clear by this point that you're not interested in having a conversation, and your only aim is to twist the other person's arguments to suit your own needs.
So before you lecture me, take a long, hard look at the mirror.
No Akula. Here's the gist of it:So, Zinegata. I'm going to read one more response from you on this issue, and if you don't act like you have some sense, I'm going to stop responding here.
I thought you were a cool guy, who's not like many others here who relied on dishonesty and a loud voice in place of logic.
Quite clearly, I was mistaken. You're a brick wall and there's no use talking to you.
Last edited by Zinegata on Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
Again, I am trying to leave a somewhat interesting conclusion out of the spoiler so that my hubris in trying to make Zinegata see my point isn't just inflicted on you all.
Lets say that you have two turns of forge of the ancients, which is pretty reasonable. And you forged 6 dwarven hammers for 70 gems total. Lets first look at the timing of the hammers. Most nations are not going to research construction first, and even if they did, not all nations have a strong capital earth income to start forging the hammers right away. So most nations are looking at something like 10-12 turns before they get their first hammer out. We could take a more nuanced look at how some nations need pretender turns to get the gems and the hammer, or how they really need construction 4 for earth boots first, or that they rely on randoms to get the paths needed. But let us discard that and say that you get the first hammer in the early part of year two easily. And you have something relevant to spend it on right away. Which is also a fantasy unless we assume construction 4. Let us say that the hammer can save you 3-4 gems per turn, every turn you use it, and you use it every turn. You add more hammers as you are able and get the second one at turn 15 or sixteen and then the next at 20 and the next at 23, then 24, and finally 25. You could have put the forge up on turn 34 lets say. So the hammers have saved you about 300 gems by the time forge goes up. The forger is getting big ticket artifacts and stuff with his paltry 2 dwarven hammers. But he is dumping a massive amount of gems into forging. Like 500 over the two turns. Forge will save him about the same amount of gems he puts into it, but he probably got some useful artifacts and powerful boosters out of the deal along with plenty of thug gear. That path boost is critical for getting that forge bonus on big ticket items. Dude is likely rolling in air booster, rings, elemental staffs, and might have shit like the chalice and the gatestone to change the game for him. As well as heavily discounted mundane shit like bottles of living water, and water bracelets, and thug gear, and armor. The main difference is that while he saves more, the dwarven hammer guy got his shit out faster. And while dwarven hammer guy is not likely to have a RoW on every cap only mage with a 10% random, he will be able to get one if he needs it. So they kinda lend themselves to different strategies, if you went for a thug nation you don't wait for forge to make that gear, but you really only need 4 hammers to make thug gear comfortably.
Now forge has other drawbacks, but it going down isn't really one of them. The exploitation you can do with it is much greater than what you can get out of dwarven hammers. In this example. Also, keep in mind that forge guy used less gems than dwarven hammer guy overall and still saved more.
The point is that Forge of the Ancients is in a whole different league from that of a dwarven hammer. Forge earns it's higher research level by virtue of being so much more powerful that it isn't even funny.
Again, this is a meaningless comparison because wish is so flexible. When you say a "wish equivalent spell" but less powerful, you could literally be talking about almost any spell in the game. If you wan't to talk about some of the specific functions of wish, you have to come up with a concrete comparison. Because if you mean wish as a summon, there are good early summons, so those are like wish, if you mean wish as a attack spell then there are spells like that too. So what do you mean when you say "wish like spell" because it sounds an awful lot like thunder signifying nothing.Zinegata wrote:Let's read it as written again, shall we? Again, read the conclusion:
"It'd be like condoning putting a Wish-equivalent spell at level 3."
Not to nitpick, but Forge has never been at the end of the research tree. It has been Const 7 for a long time. That is pretty late, but not at the end of the research tree. You are just wrong about this."an overpowered item, given that the only other thing that can replicate its effects is a Global Enchantment that (used to be) at the end of a spell research tree"
My emphasis was clearly NOT on the uniqueness aspect. It's the "end of a spell research tree" aspect.
The enchantment provides a similar, but MUCH more powerful effect, you would need to constrain your situation and actually compare the two, if hammers are always better than a forge, then that is a problem, but I suspect that this is not the case. The only direct this you stated was the scarcity of the effect, but that doesn't mean broken. Maybe you meant something else, but what it sounded like was, "this effect is rare, therefor it is likely too powerful and must be banned from use."So can you now stop pretending that you hadn't made a mistake by using that Flying Ship example?
CBM should have recognized the limits of a dom 3 mod and just stayed the hell away from items, it has nothing to do with arbitrary and everything to do with trying to take on a complex situation with limited and weak tools.I don't really care. None of us use CBM anyway. And like I already said, CBM just piles arbitrary on top of arbitrary.
Nations that were strong stayed strong with this change, only two top nations in the EA get easy hammers. The rest are nations struggling to stay above average.That's why I'm more interested in seeing if they can find some alternate strats. If they do, great. If not, then it really does mean everyone needs cheaper items.
Yes, in unlimited time, dwarven hammers will be better than one turn of forge. But this is precisely why you set conditions to your thought experiment. Because that isn't a meaningful comparison or a surprising conclusion.Again, I know the rules. And you're forgetting three things:
1) With 80 Earth gems you can get at least 5 Dwarven Hammers as opposed to 1 casting of FOTA.
2) You often don't really need more than 5 Hammers if you're just thug-equipping.
3) You can get those 5 Hammers way earlier, because Hammers are Construction 2.
#3 is particularly important. Because you can start saving gems years before you even get FOTA.
No, I was talking about making reasonable assumptions, but this seems foreign to you. I was talking about comparing a real attempt to exploit forge compared to steady use of dwarven hammers. Obviously forge will come out ahead turn by turn, but that is as meaningless as an infinite amount exceeding a finite amount.I said "Have them out early, start forging, and you will probably end up saving more gems" and yet you seriously thought I was talking about a one turn comparison?
Now forge has other drawbacks, but it going down isn't really one of them. The exploitation you can do with it is much greater than what you can get out of dwarven hammers. In this example. Also, keep in mind that forge guy used less gems than dwarven hammer guy overall and still saved more.
The point is that Forge of the Ancients is in a whole different league from that of a dwarven hammer. Forge earns it's higher research level by virtue of being so much more powerful that it isn't even funny.
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I only saw a bit of stuff on my home computer, leaving me wondering just how my raid force killed half of Cthulhu's northern army mages. I guess my 30ish ithilids might have burned through the heavy slinger screen, but it still doesn't add up. Also, it's probably time to find a new plan. Him finding a counter isn't exactly unexpected, though. It's why I worked to preserve the element of suprise in the first place.
Fighting yes, but not against Arco...
Doing rather badly against Ashdod...
On the somewhat plus side, the fighting is far away from home.
Edit: Turn sent.
Doing rather badly against Ashdod...
On the somewhat plus side, the fighting is far away from home.
Edit: Turn sent.
Last edited by Korwin on Mon Nov 22, 2010 4:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I really need more gem sites.Must not use the jolly candy-like S3 site search, because that would be really dumb.
Also, I can't anything like afford it.
Also, I can't anything like afford it.
DSMatticus wrote:It's not just that everything you say is stupid, but that they are Gordian knots of stupid that leave me completely bewildered as to where to even begin. After hearing you speak Alexander the Great would stab you and triumphantly declare the puzzle solved.