So why is the Imperium viewed as remotely sympathetic?

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 9:02 am

I'm willing to be slapped down on this POV, because most of my knowledge of WH40K comes from Internet osmosis, this board, and 1d4chan wiki, but as far as I know...

Why do so many people stick up for the Imperium of Man? And I don't mean in just a 'they're the best alternatives in a world of crap' kind of way, but I mean people going out of their way to justify stuff like 'Commissars shooting their men is a good thing, because otherwise they would retreat' or 'it's good to Exterminatus planets that Dark Eldar visited or had a Chaos incursion at one planet'.

It's a little disturbing, frankly. I mean, I'm always up for some dark comedy, but some of weirds me out in the same way that the more vocal Punisher fans do.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 9:13 am

People identify with the protagonists. If someone is the protagonist of the story, a rather large amount of people will attempt to cast them as the hero. I mean, for fuck's sake, how many people think of Rambo as a hero? Let's consider his role in each movie:

In First Blood, Rambo is fighting against... ordinary police officers and other actual normal Americans, because he is a lunatic.
In Rambo, some fanatic generals who can't be bothered to accept that we lost in Vietnam ship Rambo off to Indochina in order to murder people in a country we are not at war with.
In Rambo II, Rambo takes it upon himself to go aid the Taliban in its war of independence against the Soviet Union.

Right? He's a monster. He shoots people we are not at war with and is both personally a terrorist and aids other terrorists who are attacking people he hasn't even heard of. And yet? People say "Rambo! Fuck yeah! American hero!" Why? Because he's the protagonist. If the sheriffs bringing John Rambo down for being a lunatic terrorist with an incoherent ideology were the protagonists, the same mouth breathers would be cheering for them instead.

It is for this reason that I genuinely don't think that anti-heroes work that well in most fiction. People just aren't sophisticated enough to see the actions of a protagonist without trying to create a moral framework in which those actions are praiseworthy.

-Username17

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 9:26 am

Also, The Imperium is human.

We are human.

People are more likely to sympathize.

Plus, there's a vague chance that somewhere inside the Imperium's million worlds, normal life is happening

Zinegata · Post by **Zinegata** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 9:28 am

Uh, First Blood Rambo was in fact severely beaten by the police which drove him over the edge (after being arrested on trumped-up charges) Moreover, the whole point of the book is to repudiate the anti-war hysteria gripping the US which caused even soldiers with good records to be pissed on.

The only reason Rambo even lived in the movie (whereas he was "put down" like a wild dog by the Colonel in the book) was that the test audience got so hysterically depressed by how unfair the world was to Rambo that they rewrote the ending so that Rambo got to live.

Also, in Rambo 2, Rambo was in fact rescuing POWs who were being held by the Vietnamese. So while the general was a lunatic, Rambo was just "sticking out for fellow soldiers forgotten by their country".

So really, you can make anyone a hero or a villain. You just need to have a selective memory. People don't exactly sing the Imperium's praises when they accidentally nuke a planet of good guys or bumbling generals get entire regiments wiped out.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 10:04 am

Maxus wrote:Also, The Imperium is human.

We are human.

People are more likely to sympathize.

Plus, there's a vague chance that somewhere inside the Imperium's million worlds, normal life is happening

I think it's also that Space Marines, in general, in whatever story they're in, are seen as good, hard working, "Hey, let's grab a beer," "Just following my orders, Ma'am" kind of guys. Possibly because Sci Fi typically uses humans as a stand in for America, and Eagleland begins to creep in.

Hell, a trailer for Starcraft II showed the space marines walking into a derelict ship with what seemed to be a bomb, before stopping somewhere, setting up a few compact sized charges, and opening what was actually a cooler full of beer to bunk off for a bit between "getting the job done" and "how long they're expected to need to get it done".

That's why Space Marines, and their faction, are typically perceived sympathetically, because they're marines, and marines, largely, are seen as good, hard working men, who love their mommas, follow orders, have a drink or two, and... I don't know, play poker, work on ranches, and smoke marlboros, or some other "Manly Man" shit on their free time. The soldiers are sympathetic, and thus, the audience extends that sympathy to the people who deploy them.

Zinegata · Post by **Zinegata** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 10:13 am

Space Marines are... technically not human.

Heck, lots of setting materials and characters emphasize they are NOT human >_>.

I dunno, but I think the IG are the ones getting the sympathy points nowadays.

Grek · Post by **Grek** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 11:40 am

Space Marines are only sympathetic if the author is writing them poorly.

The Emperor and the Imperial Guard are the only vaugely sympathetic imperial characters. The Emperor is sympathetic because he was Right™ to frankly sueish proportions.

The Imperial Guard is sympathetic because most of them are somewhat ordinary people drafted into the Imperial Guard and sent off into crazyland. The character is there asking 'WTF' and "OhCrapThereAreDaemonsFuck' right alongside the reader.

FatR · Post by **FatR** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 12:22 pm

Other dudes being even worse is a good starting point for fanboyism. As is a protagonist POV. Also, like nearly all cooperative universes, WH40K is not exactly coherent. In some portrayals the Imperium is over-the-top grimdark and this is played for black humor. In others it is over-the-top grimdark and this is played seriously. In yet others it is not really worse than the present-day Earth. So if you want to find things you can root for in there, you can.

FatR · Post by **FatR** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 12:30 pm

Grek wrote: The Emperor and the Imperial Guard are the only vaugely sympathetic imperial characters. The Emperor is sympathetic because he was Right™ to frankly sueish proportions.

About the Emperor... there are two general possibilities. Either he was able to see the future as good as he's implied to. In which case he actually planned for the modern-day Imperium to form in its present shape, which really can only be justified through an omniscient morality license. Or he wasn't, in which case he was a dumbfuck who epically failed in most of his goals just because he was pathologically unable to trust his chief lieutenants.

Kot · Post by **Kot** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 12:43 pm

Erm, the empire is in decline for millenia now. They even turned programming and maintenance into religion. WH40K is a dark fantasy setting, and you sympathize usually with those who still fight against 'the darkness'. Even if they blow up entire towns/planets in the process...
And because playing them is fun. "Burn the Heretic! Kill the Mutant! Purge the Unclean!"

mean_liar · Post by **mean_liar** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 2:04 pm

I wasn't aware that the Imperium was considered "good".

Kot · Post by **Kot** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 2:09 pm

It's more 'not as evil as genestealers, necron, dark eldar and greenskins'.

Zinegata · Post by **Zinegata** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 2:26 pm

It's not so really "good" as opposed to "It's us or them. Vote for us or die".

name_here · Post by **name_here** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 5:16 pm

The main reason the imperium as a whole is sympathetic is because their primary goal is "Not killing every single human being," a major step up from most of the other guys.

The IG is sympathetic because they're ordinary, decent human beings going up against things way out of their league. Also, the guys with books written about them try to minimize the extent to which they throw endless swarms of soldiers at fixed defenses until they run out of ammo.

Some of the space marine chapters are genuinely pretty cool guys. Others are... not.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 5:37 pm

I always thought the Imperium sympathy was ironic or in jest, much like when people speak praises of the Computer from Paranoia.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 6:02 pm

I've heard it said that you can tell the Imperium is good because they kill and cook the babies before eating them.

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 8:33 pm

FrankTrollman wrote: It is for this reason that I genuinely don't think that anti-heroes work that well in most fiction. People just aren't sophisticated enough to see the actions of a protagonist without trying to create a moral framework in which those actions are praiseworthy.

I think it's more that people like characters with strong morality, though not necessarily one matching their own. That's why the most appealing villains are consistent, why the moment of doubt trope works so very well, and why everyone hated Anakin.
Maybe it's not a perfect explanation, but it seems to hold fairly well.

K · Post by K » Sat Jan 01, 2011 9:51 pm

Once I read the part about space marines being stuffed full of genetically modified organs and needing constant medical attention to keep functioning, I realized that they were just juicers and I lost all sympathy for them.

It also made the empire make a lot more sense to me. Roid rage.

TheWorid · Post by **TheWorid** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 10:09 pm

Space Marines in WH40K are only sort-of human. They have weird, steroid-abuse-like bodies, they spit acid, don't sleep, and have craploads of cybernetics and genetic alterations. They are also much worse than Starcraft space marines; less "grab a beer" and more "Kill all life on the planet FOR THE EMPEROR".

Zinegata · Post by **Zinegata** » Sun Jan 02, 2011 1:46 am

Imperium Space Marines are said to not even have a sexual drive. Because it all goes into "MUST KILL FOR THE EMPEROR" part of their brains.

TheFlatline · Post by **TheFlatline** » Sun Jan 02, 2011 2:10 am

TheWorid wrote:Space Marines in WH40K are only sort-of human. They have weird, steroid-abuse-like bodies, they spit acid, don't sleep, and have craploads of cybernetics and genetic alterations. They are also much worse than Starcraft space marines; less "grab a beer" and more "Kill all life on the planet FOR THE EMPEROR".

Pretty much. "There is only war" is pretty much not just the tagline for the series, but the entire outlook on existence from the Space Marines.

If there wasn't an enemy, it would be necessary for the space marines to create one.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sun Jan 02, 2011 3:58 am

TheFlatline wrote:
TheWorid wrote:Space Marines in WH40K are only sort-of human. They have weird, steroid-abuse-like bodies, they spit acid, don't sleep, and have craploads of cybernetics and genetic alterations. They are also much worse than Starcraft space marines; less "grab a beer" and more "Kill all life on the planet FOR THE EMPEROR".
Pretty much. "There is only war" is pretty much not just the tagline for the series, but the entire outlook on existence from the Space Marines.

If there wasn't an enemy, it would be necessary for the space marines to create one.

Ok, yes, they're not human, but to the casual observer, they are because they look it (granted, humans drawn by Liefield, but still, human). Also, the casual observer basically just sees Space Marines, and doesn't necessarily distinguish between Starcraft SMs, WH40K SMS and Aliens franchise SMs.

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Sun Jan 02, 2011 5:55 am

I like the Tau...

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sun Jan 02, 2011 6:42 am

I like the necrons and chaos. But then I don't find them sympathetic, just cool. (and, in some cases, sexy)

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Jan 02, 2011 7:34 am

Yeah, even some of the official writings sometimes slip back into talking about Space Marines as if they were highly competent and sympathetic GI Joes like Starcraft Marines are. Not all of the authors writing official content seem to remember that the space marines are supposed to be religious fanatic juicers who worship their grandfather as a zombie god.

A lot of space marine fiction is actually intended as homosexual erotica. That's not even a joke. The Dark Angels aren't named after a mediocre adventure show with Jessica Alba, they are named after a poem about the tragedy of secret man love. Seriously. So a bunch of the stuff about how they don't need women to reproduce and are literally four times the man of anyone you've ever met and stuff, is actually really creepy fapping material for some rather creepy homosexuals in England.

-Username17