Fixing the Fantasy of Fantasy Gaming

[Maxus]

I'm feeling blessed, then.

None of my players have ever tried to make "Rar I'm a non-humanoid" the big center of the game and gotten pissy about dungeons having, I dunno, only ten-foot ceilings and stairs.

[fectin]

Could you just play a dwarf centaur and call it a day?

[For Valor]

Dwentaur, actually.

[K]

I'd not play a game with a centaur PC, and certainly would not DM it. Too many limits on the adventures that are possible, and I don't really care for My Little Pony.

Having a centaur in your game sends a clear message what the game will be like - and there are people who don't want such a game.

Er... what will it be like?

Focused on the centaur, with all its problems taking center stage, and everyone else having to accomodate it.

Having a cavalryman in earthdawn was bad enough, I still remember the troubles until the character finally was dropped for someone who didn't balk at entering dungeons and other terrain not suitable for horses.

Basically, yeh.

I mean, doesn't anyone realize why the Paladin's mount went from a real creature to a summonable creature? Enough people have tried enough things in gaming to know the consequences of trying to force cavalrymen of any kind into fantasy gaming.

Of course, then they fucked it up and made the Ranger get a creature to drag around, so maybe the lesson was not learned.

[Fuchs]

Order of the stick shows how those creatures usually are handled - they are usually forgotten until someone remembers.

Bariaur I'd say, if people really want to play a centaur. At least those are of manageable size, even if they look silly, and a goat can move far better than a horse in uneven terrain.

[PhoneLobster]

A goat can move far better than a HUMAN in uneven terrain.

By Frank and K's reasoning a Mountain Goat centaur is DEFINITELY not allowed because he will say "cool! perilous Cliff side open air dungeon on the very face of a sheer crumbly cliff! LETS DO IT!"

And all the low climb and balance skill humans will say "lets skip it" and Frank and Ks heads will explode.

[Ganbare Gincun]

I mean, doesn't anyone realize why the Paladin's mount went from a real creature to a summonable creature? Enough people have tried enough things in gaming to know the consequences of trying to force cavalrymen of any kind into fantasy gaming.

Of course, then they fucked it up and made the Ranger get a creature to drag around, so maybe the lesson was not learned.

And then Pathfailure made them both constant companions, didn't they?

[Calibron]

A goat can move far better than a HUMAN in uneven terrain.

By Frank and K's reasoning a Mountain Goat centaur is DEFINITELY not allowed because he will say "cool! perilous Cliff side open air dungeon on the very face of a sheer crumbly cliff! LETS DO IT!"

And all the low climb and balance skill humans will say "lets skip it" and Frank and Ks heads will explode.

You're smart enough to know that the problem people have with centuars is lack of ability to do some kinds of adventures that are trivial for the baseline, not another creature's ability to do a specific kind of thing better than the baseline.

If your game is built around the assumption of inflexible quadrupeds being common, then centuars aren't a problem. If you're game is based around the assumption of bariaurs, spider people, and hawkmen being the norm, then playing a human in platemail is a dick move.

Most games are human/humanoid centric.

[K]

A goat can move far better than a HUMAN in uneven terrain.

By Frank and K's reasoning a Mountain Goat centaur is DEFINITELY not allowed because he will say "cool! perilous Cliff side open air dungeon on the very face of a sheer crumbly cliff! LETS DO IT!"

And all the low climb and balance skill humans will say "lets skip it" and Frank and Ks heads will explode.

You still don't get it. The problem with centaurs is that they limit the kinds of adventures you can do and it's all the fault of the centaur.

I don't care if people skip adventures. I do care that they have a choice about whether they skip adventures, which is not what they get with a centaur. The game gets worse the instant you say "hey, the elves are going to fly us to the mountain temple on their griffins..... wait, Steve is a centaur so we just have to skip that."

I went through my Dungeon Magazines sitting next to my computer, and out of the four I looked at I noticed that a centaur can't function in about half of all the adventures. That's crippling.

Forcing a DM to restrict his adventures to centaur-friendly adventures is selfish and might not even be possible considering how much detail goes into adventures. Forcing players to limit their tactical options because of your centaur is dickery of the highest order.

Why can't you admit that lots and lots of gamers have tried this experiment and found it to be a failure? You don't have any defenders because your position can't be defended by anyone with experience.

[Prak]

I'm still not seeing how they're non-viable. Why can't they do those adventures?

[PhoneLobster]

If the elf griffons cannot air lift a centaur to your railroad "I can't think of another way you could get there and it's low magic so reduce person isn't a first level spell everyone has" plot then they cannot air lift the same or greater size and weight Troll/Ogre/InsectCentaur/Naga/Half Giant/Whatever either.

Edit: hell the excessively fat excessively jolly excessively armour plated dwarf with the excessively large collection of excessively large weaponry probably can't go on the flying railroad either. And he is humanoid and barely even medium sized. Does HE "break the game" and make your tiny head explode too?

Being "over weight capacity" to get on the only flying Railroad in town is NOT a limitation exclusive to the Centaur by a long shot. So your argument was what exactly? Oh thats right, utterly inconsistent.

[shadzar]

I'm still not seeing how they're non-viable. Why can't they do those adventures?

you would have to design a centaur friendly adventure. there is not rope crossing the ravine because a centaur doesnt have the ability to go foot over foot...er...hoof over hoof over hoof over hoof.

pretty much everywhere you would leave a mount, is where you would leave a centaur character...outside of dungeons, outside of towers, caverns,....

simply where you leave a horse is why centaur shouldnt be a PC...no matter what PO: Skills and Powers tried to do. Same goes for wemics....they jsut dont belong with a group of bipeds as adventurers.

go into a tavern and tie up your party member to the hitching post? get a room at the inn and send your party member to the stables?

making special concessions for some non-standard phisiology is not fun for players or DM.

if you built a campaign for all quadruped PCs, then maybe it would work...but why are there no bipeds in the world, and then if there are..what are your quadruped PC supposed to do when met with the world built for bipeds?

hey centaur PC climb that ladder and...nvm.

the world is based on bipeds and built for them as humans playing the game are bipeds, and build what they could use an understand.

everything has to be specially designed for a centaur PC.

try this: centaur PC going through Tucker's Kobolds...wait he wouldnt even fit in the cavern to begin with.

[mean_liar]

It's context-dependent. That's it. I cannot believe this is an issue.

Centaurs are not bannable, they're niche.

[Prak]

I'm still not seeing how they're non-viable. Why can't they do those adventures?

you would have to design a centaur friendly adventure. there is not rope crossing the ravine because a centaur doesnt have the ability to go foot over foot...er...hoof over hoof over hoof over hoof.

HANDS! So the centaur needs to make a ref, and possibly a str check, while everyone else walks across (or more likely, shimies, a damned sight easier than tightrope walking) making balance checks, the centaur makes like Kratos+horse ass

pretty much everywhere you would leave a mount, is where you would leave a centaur character...outside of dungeons, outside of towers, caverns,....

So you tie up the humans outside a dwarf/halfling/gnome/kobold/goblin/pixie place?

go into a tavern and tie up your party member to the hitching post? get a room at the inn and send your party member to the stables?

You know where a 2,100, sentient, murderous hobo sleeps? Where ever the fuck it wants. The centaur has to duck it's head going in, so what? A medium character very well might need to, too.[

making special concessions for some non-standard phisiology is not fun for players or DM.

I've never had a problem with it.

if you built a campaign for all quadruped PCs, then maybe it would work...but why are there no bipeds in the world, and then if there are..what are your quadruped PC supposed to do when met with the world built for bipeds?

They make do, same as the bipeds when they come to a world made for quadrupeds.

hey centaur PC climb that ladder and...nvm.

Sure, just grab me a second one, for my left side. Again, centaurs come equipped with the wondrous evolutionary advantage of HANDS! Yes, it's HANDS! Use them to lift objects without using your mouth, or climb things where feet just won't do. Hooves not given you enough traction on that ladder? No Worries! From the people who have benefited from HANDS now comes FOOTWEAR! Traction will never be a problem again when you have the right FOOTWEAR!

the world is based on bipeds and built for them as humans playing the game are bipeds, and build what they could use an understand.

If you can't figure out what you would make if you had two extra legs and four extra feet of ass, you suck at imagination.

try this: centaur PC going through Tucker's Kobolds...wait he wouldnt even fit in the cavern to begin with.

And once again, neither would the humanoid shaped ogre/troll/minotaur, or, hey, probably not even the fucking human!

Your argument is specious.

[tzor]

Could you just play a dwarf centaur and call it a day?

A dwarf / mule / Centaur would totally kick ass.

[violence in the media]

HANDS! So the centaur needs to make a ref, and possibly a str check, while everyone else walks across (or more likely, shimies, a damned sight easier than tightrope walking) making balance checks, the centaur makes like Kratos+horse ass

This is purely a curiosity question, but what STR score would you need to climb up/across something, using only your hands, while hauling your 1000+ lb horse butt? Would it be a different score than the one needed for a human fighter hauling 1000+ lbs of gear? If so, why?

[tzor]

So you tie up the humans outside a dwarf/halfling/gnome/kobold/goblin/pixie place?

Hmmm, never thought of that before. It would have solved so many problems. By the way, technically speaking leave Dwarves out of it, they are considered M sized creatures ... bottom end of M, but M never the less. And yes, I have designed a number of kobold structures where humans are better off just not even trying to enter. A halfling's house is spacious and if you recall Gandalf is practically squeezed into a little ball in the living room.

I'm a classic 2E Nehwon DM. (Where the rules were crap and you had to do a lot on your own.) This means I often scaled down to rat (2E not 3E) size and back again.

[Red_Rob]

hey centaur PC climb that ladder and...nvm.

Sure, just grab me a second one, for my left side. Again, centaurs come equipped with the wondrous evolutionary advantage of HANDS! Yes, it's HANDS! Use them to lift objects without using your mouth, or climb things where feet just won't do. Hooves not given you enough traction on that ladder? No Worries! From the people who have benefited from HANDS now comes FOOTWEAR! Traction will never be a problem again when you have the right FOOTWEAR!

So you believe that the centaur should constantly be carrying around a ladder and 2 pairs of Nike Airs in case he ever has to climb a ladder? Do horse legs even bend the right way for him to climb a ladder? Can standard rungs take the weight of what is effectively an armoured horse and rider? Doesn't the centaur look ridiculous trying to climb this double ladder contraption in his little bootees? What if at the top of the ladder is a human sized hole, like many ladders, that a horse won't fit through?

This right here is why Centaur characters are a shitty idea.

[Fuchs]

Can he even shod himself? Or does he need a squire to put the shoes on?

[PhoneLobster]

What if at the top of the ladder is a human sized hole, like many ladders

Again.

A large horse sized troll in full troll plate (even without it, but who are we kidding, he is in full plate or better) won't be climbing that ladder (it will break, IF he can even fit his huge hands and feet in it at all) and he won't be fitting through that hole either.

So really "Centaur can't do it" isn't an argument that is limited to centaurs.

Troll cannot fit through the ladder hole, climb the puny manling ladder, or get airlifted by the surprisingly weak griffons that inexpicably MUST air lif him.

But people say Troll and co are cool. So what's up with that? I tell you what, they are just looking for shallow poorly thought out excuses.

[BearsAreBrown]

Maybe a centuar can climb a ladder. Maybe a troll cant. But for the purposes of suspending disbelief its a lot easier for most poeple to accept a large person climbing a ladder then a horse with hands.

[virgil]

8' man /= 8' man + 8' butt

This is by standards of mass, volume, and extra dimensions. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that a troll is, by definition, smaller than a centaur. Thus it's more likely to be able to be supported by a human-centric environment.

Now personally, I think the 15' tall humans and their ilk (Huge+ size) are a bit too tall and push the envelope more than some think; but I attribute that to hyperbole to say they're perfectly okay.

[Prak]

HANDS! So the centaur needs to make a ref, and possibly a str check, while everyone else walks across (or more likely, shimies, a damned sight easier than tightrope walking) making balance checks, the centaur makes like Kratos+horse ass

This is purely a curiosity question, but what STR score would you need to climb up/across something, using only your hands, while hauling your 1000+ lb horse butt? Would it be a different score than the one needed for a human fighter hauling 1000+ lbs of gear? If so, why?

16. Average centaur is said to weigh 2100 lbs. If you figure hauling your body up a ledge or ladder is no more strenuous than lifting an equal weight off the ground, a centaur, being a large quadruped can lift himself with a strength of 16 (possibly less, I may have forgotten size when I figured). The average centaur has a strength of 18.

[Prak]

hey centaur PC climb that ladder and...nvm.

Sure, just grab me a second one, for my left side. Again, centaurs come equipped with the wondrous evolutionary advantage of HANDS! Yes, it's HANDS! Use them to lift objects without using your mouth, or climb things where feet just won't do. Hooves not given you enough traction on that ladder? No Worries! From the people who have benefited from HANDS now comes FOOTWEAR! Traction will never be a problem again when you have the right FOOTWEAR!

So you believe that the centaur should constantly be carrying around a ladder and 2 pairs of Nike Airs in case he ever has to climb a ladder? Do horse legs even bend the right way for him to climb a ladder? Can standard rungs take the weight of what is effectively an armoured horse and rider? Doesn't the centaur look ridiculous trying to climb this double ladder contraption in his little bootees? What if at the top of the ladder is a human sized hole, like many ladders, that a horse won't fit through?

This right here is why Centaur characters are a shitty idea.

I'm merely saying that it is conceivable for a centaur to climb a (pair of) ladder(s). It's no wise than the rogue in his climbing kit. Yes, horse legs do bend right, given that they are similar to dog legs, and the only reason they can't is lack of hands.

(sorry if this double posts, i'm on my phone)

[K]

The quadruped bonus doesn't apply to lifting things over your head, which I assume is the calculation you'd need for a centaur to pull himself up something. So you'd need a STR of 22.

Of course, no rope or ladder or tree limb is going to hold 2000 lbs, so the point is moot really.

Of course, nothing is going to convince him that centaurs are shitty adventurers or that it's not his divine right to bring a crippled character to the table.

I'm waiting for the youtube video of a horse climbing a double ladder.