Women and Gaming

[Ikeren]

It's also possible that men spend time talking about playing, but women just quietly have fun actually playing. I don't think there are any really solid demographic surveys.

Excellent point; I wonder about that too. In my gaming group over the last 4 years...3/6 guys involved would do regular online discussion, but 0/5 girls invovled would do online discussion, though one of them may have come online once or twice to try to figure out what we were talking about in regards to char-op.

That being said, annecdote is not evidence. I'll see if I can find some public demographic information available.

[Darth Rabbitt]

Yeah, Dylan Moran is pretty awesome. His show "black books" is pretty cool.

Also, aside from Maj, who else is a girl on this forum? Crissa seems to have disappeared into the ether. So has cielingcat. Anyone else?

Koumei

Also, Starmaker.

[shadzar]

It's also possible that men spend time talking about playing, but women just quietly have fun actually playing. I don't think there are any really solid demographic surveys.

This is probably very likely, as women I have seen (anecdotal) dont sit around whining about one class over another, they just play the game, not bicker about the damage output of fighter v wizard, etc.

Simply put, they don't take part in the giant pissing contests of the classes, and don't have interest in being around them.

Ending them and playing the game, may ave more entry into it by women where there is something they have interest in, that being the game, rather than a measuring contest.

[TheWorid]

Also, aside from Maj, who else is a girl on this forum? Crissa seems to have disappeared into the ether. So has cielingcat. Anyone else?

Me, but that was already obvious from my previous post.

[Sarandosil]

+1

[Maj]

Vampire is neither cute nor cuddly, yet attracts a steady stream of female gamers, up to and including LARPs, which is sneered at by normal RPG fans. You can't even chalk it up to white wolf games, since at least in my experience the frequency of female gamers almost approaches zero as soon as you play (or cross over) into werewolf or mage.

Vampires are hot. Hotness totally counts.

Too much of the coolest art in the hobby has ALREADY been turned into grungy shit because of a patronizing attempt by ignorant patriarchs trying to appeal to female gamers by removing the sex appeal from their imagery.

Grunge isn't cute, pretty, cuddly, or hot. It's gross. It fails the hygiene check.

You have to remember that as part of a fantasy, most women enjoy being considered sexually attractive, so playing the cheesecake heroine is not out-of-bounds.

Check!

However, if you want a more accessible game, you DO want to carefully pare down the crunch to a manageable level. Most can do plenty of math just fine, but their eyes will roll back into their skull if they actually encounter having to solve an equation involving http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#modifierTypes all the possible variables in a D&D combat, not because of difficulty but simply because of how tiresome it becomes, and while rare, there are games which actually have all those variables appear, with, worse, having to correctly sort through overlapping and stacking rules. That alone has made me quit playing 3e D&D. And most girls I've played with, including myself, would rather skip ahead to the "yeah yeah, how much damage did I deal? WAS IT A LOT?!" rather than spend soul-sucking minutes calculating out their values.

Fuck. Yes.

My expert testimony is that I and many other women I know like the interpersonal aspect of RPGs. That is, not only talking to NPCs but importantly having relationships with other player characters, who are usually more fleshed out. Having dragons and wizards is totally fine with women as long as they can also develop interesting characters.

+1

---

All of the ladies that I know who roleplay were newbs to the concept. Bringing them to the game required the following:

[*]Better imagery. Grunge fantasy is, as previously mentioned, gross, and D&D is grunge fantasy. Orcs are gross. Evil is gross. Padded armor is gross. In my fantasy, I don't want to get sweaty and covered with grime from riding with no shower for a week. I want my character to have perfect hair, kick ass, and have the only stain on her be the strategically placed smudge of dirt and blood that happened during a fight with her nemesis, but makes her look hotter than ever. It will be prestidigitated away when it's no longer needed.

[*]Simplification. Time spent doing math is time spent not roleplaying. If you want women to roleplay, then minimize the time spent not roleplaying.

[*]A reason. A lot of women need to understand why roleplaying is a viable pastime. If you relate it back to the flights of fantasy that they have as a kid - be it teaparty, princess, pirate, egyptians, witches, whatever - remind them that this isn't strange, unusual, or weird. It's normal, and they once did it.

[*]Engaging storylines. You know how doing math isn't roleplaying? Well saying, "I stab it," isn't roleplaying, either. Saying it over and over again is about as exciting as watching the same Thomas the Tank Engine episode for an hour. At the end of that hour, you are crying for a good debate on the philosophies of Ayn Rand or a chance to take the SATs because your brain is so numb that any intellectual stimulation and engagement is required for your continued existence. Worlds with events and NPCs that interact with the players, and stories that are interesting and suck you in are a must.

[Shazbot79]

I don't have any hard data on this, but from my perspective it seems like there are more female gamers now than ever before.

[Midnight_v]

I tend to agree with the above poster.

also:

All of the ladies that I know who roleplay were newbs to the concept. Bringing them to the game required the following:


Better imagery. Grunge fantasy is, as previously mentioned, gross, and D&D is grunge fantasy. Orcs are gross. Evil is gross. Padded armor is gross. In my fantasy, I don't want to get sweaty and covered with grime from riding with no shower for a week. I want my character to have perfect hair, kick ass, and have the only stain on her be the strategically placed smudge of dirt and blood that happened during a fight with her nemesis, but makes her look hotter than ever. It will be prestidigitated away when it's no longer needed.


Simplification. Time spent doing math is time spent not roleplaying. If you want women to roleplay, then minimize the time spent not roleplaying.


A reason. A lot of women need to understand why roleplaying is a viable pastime. If you relate it back to the flights of fantasy that they have as a kid - be it teaparty, princess, pirate, egyptians, witches, whatever - remind them that this isn't strange, unusual, or weird. It's normal, and they once did it.


it,Engaging storylines. You know how doing math isn't roleplaying? Well saying, "I stab " isn't roleplaying, either. Saying it over and over again is about as exciting as watching the same Thomas the Tank Engine episode for an hour. At the end of that hour, you are crying for a good debate on the philosophies of Ayn Rand or a chance to take the SATs because your brain is so numb that any intellectual stimulation and engagement is required for your continued existence. Worlds with events and NPCs that interact with the players, and stories that are interesting and suck you in are a must

Better imagery: Seems incompatible to me. If want to be a grayskinned dude with sharks teeth, or a berserker covered in the blood of his enemies, or hell any honest rendition of wolverine from the x-men when he's fighting humans. There should be a certain amount of grunge it reminds me of an earlier post.

And really we men shouldn't be concerning ourselves too much about appealing to female gamers, especially at the cost of removing things WE already KNOW that WE like in gaming.

I'm not sure how well the pro prettiness of us in a party work, if we're actually getting any indepth descritions. You say "Orcs are gross" Ewww. where the next guy over says "Princess w/perfect hair" Eyeroll, or can i fuck it. I've seen both, and sadly very little inbetween.
Simplification: Actually throws a coin into the bucket that says "girls are dumb and don't like math" when worded like that, but I suspect simplification might make the game appeal to many many people. Uhm... it brings to mind the pathfinder people, but generally any math adverse people are going to be at odds with any system that asks them to calculate quickly, so are most people math adverse in the way that makes them unhappy when they're asked to do basic arithmetic?
Most games actually use basic addition subtraction. I don't think it gets more simple than that. Paper rock scissors, maybe?

A reason: Magical tea party didn't have rules... pretty much the strogest personality dictated what the weaker personalities were able to do. . . So I suppose it was harkened to having a grognard dm, who could make you (not your char but you) go sit in the corner like in kindergarten. Further, the thing about this is... women never stop doing playing that very game except in real life. That being said.
Some women, I imagine a very large amount of them are NOT going to play rpgs. Why? Because they basically are playing an rpg in real life everyday. Women are lauded for having multiple role capacity, in social settings. Damned if I'm not on a tagent with this one, here:
Its hard to find a "reason" for a woman to play, if that reason has to be vastly different from the reasons that we play. OR a justification for wasting time on it at all; which is something that we rpg'ers have already decided to do because we find it fun. "It'll be fun" would have to be reason enough.

Engaging Storylines I just was reading the aWoD thread and... I think that boils down to "what type of movie are we in." That is to say what type of story are we telling. Twilight is a vampire story that has appealed to vastly more women than men, but it isn't a horror movie at all. I'm not certain that I'd like to play in that world, despite the vast popularity of it. I stopped watching that movie the instant he started to twinkle. . . I'd rather watch "Blade" (If I can get a good movie version).
I'm telling the tale of a hero, in the greek sense or of an anti-hero and there is a requisite amount of face stabbing as resolution that has to be allowed for. That amount is a lot.
GENERALLY SPEAKING, I suspect that the basic issue with role playing is that males and females actually have a different fantasy outlook in general.
I think I'd phrase it something like this: little boys when they play pretend, fantasize about being, bigger stronger faster tougher, more powerful. Thats whats matters to them generally.
Little girls don't tend to think in those terms but want to be ... I was going to say prettier but thats bullshit. They want to be "MORE IMPORTANT TO PEOPLE". Sometimes that means she's a princess, or just a super beautiful creature or goddes or maybe just pretending to be "Mom" the most important thing in the family.
So to get a game that both enjoy you have to allow for a situation that allows for both. Superpowered face stabbing or at least the THREAT thereof have to stay actually, as that's is honestly the real resolution of ever major conflict in the history of our world. Sometimes its "we have steel swords, you have gold ones" or "We have a catapult" to we have a fusion bomb.
Its a totally different thing. "I don't mind face stabbing, as long as there's a reason" vs "I'm looking for a reason to face stab, because at my power level in real life I"m not allowed to resolve conflicts in that way".

[Plebian]

my last game at a convention was at a table of five women and me, and every game I was at had at least a single woman playing and usually more than one. so, anecdotally, it definitely seems like a lot more women are into tabletops than before, and I was also only disgusted by a single person's horrible BO.

the hobby is improving

[Midnight_v]

my last game at a convention was at a table of five women and me, and every game I was at had at least a single woman playing and usually more than one. so, anecdotally, it definitely seems like a lot more women are into tabletops than before, and I was also only disgusted by a single person's horrible BO.

the hobby is improving

Addressing some of the background agruments in here.
I do think that male-feminist are using that to get laid. Shrug. Maybe not all but enough. Men engage in predation for sex, chaning colors and behaviors in predators is just part of the hunt in someways.
I do believe that, when I see thread like a call for more female gamers or wondering why they don't exist and the consideration to pander to them if needed to "get them in the hobby" are generally attempts to increase the circle of available women in you past time for sex. Or if a women is asking, an oppurtunity to instruct the majority about how fubar they are and if they weren't there would be "MORE GURLZ!"
I wasn't sure about this until I once tried to say, well what about other minority groups. . . and was promptly told. "We don't care if any more blacks, hispanics or asians, play, that thier thing if they don't. We DO care if women don't play, cause thats unnaceeptable" I was also told something to the effect of "Don't try to make this about race! This is about WOMEN!" however the ridiculousness and obvious social parameters is amazing. Sometime about a "desired group" comes to mind. Though I'd be amazed if someone were to write a thread that asked:
"Why aren't there more Homosexuals, in gaming."

What I'm saying is when the title question gets asked its terrible and wrong because the question should be more about how do we increase the overall appeal of rpgs for everybody... Why are women so important to the cause? Mating pools.

I'm actually going to put shadzar on ignore finally, It seems like all he wants to talk abou the wrongness of comparing classes within cooperative systems, that might be valid, extoling it's evils whereever you go is not valid.

[Plebian]

oh, certainly a bit of wanting more women in the hobby can be attributed to just wanting a more attractive landscape than Earl the Beached Whale who plays Candi the elven sorceress. and that is definitely rooted in the very human desire for a sexual partner because of the built-in-need to at least pretend to reproduce. but for a long, long time there were very nearly no female gamers and it's a lot easier to see a lack of women than it is to see a lack of minorities. though I will say that I've seen a decently representative portion of Hispanic and Asian people in the hobby.

and, in regards to sexual orientation, I'm not sure how you would really know unless the person in question has a boyfriend/girlfriend/spouse, because it's really not a topic that comes up very often. and the gay people I've known inside of the gaming community are usually very leery of outing themselves to gamers because a) a lot of gamers are assholes, leading to the same things that keep women out in a lot of cases and b) it's none of your damned business what genders your group prefers.

[icyshadowlord]

Now I wonder why sexual minorities were even brought up, seeing that Plebian made a good point on why nobody really bothers to talk about them either (the part about it not being our business, that is). Anyway, Maj's post and the slightly clarified version of Midnight v seem like the ones that make the most sense to me.

I actually played a D&D game and we first had one female gamer in it, and later on a second one joined in. The first was a friend of mine and the other was her friend. I think the reasons she played was that she
1.) Was friends with the rest of the group
2.) Had wanted to try D&D
3.) She had nothing wrong with how the D&D's basic premise was.

With that said, I can say that female gamers probably aren't that rare, and they will certainly be more common if you only have one troll/asshole in your D&D group (we had one that I did my best not to talk with).

[Almaz]

Yeah, Dylan Moran is pretty awesome. His show "black books" is pretty cool.

Also, aside from Maj, who else is a girl on this forum? Crissa seems to have disappeared into the ether. So has cielingcat. Anyone else?

Koumei

Also, Starmaker.

In case I did not make it dreadfully apparent in my rambling, hi. Though I'm a recent arrival and thus don't count for anything, nevermind genders.

[Midnight_v]

and it's a lot easier to see a lack of women than it is to see a lack of minorities.

Really how many black people do you see play? They're pretty easy to spot.
You have sit down and have a game with tyrone playing the Half-black dragon?
Honestly, that doesnt' matter because annecdotal info doesn't count for much anyway. The important thing is to acknowledge what you acknowledged, pleabian.

certainly a bit of wanting more women in the hobby can be attributed to just wanting a more attractive landscape

Landscape
Really no one cares if there's no Black(or African American or whatever you call them) players, however an extra set of tits a the table becomes extremely noticible and important. Why?
Self interest. Subtle though that more female gamers = more chances to score. Hell maybe it does. It's wrong on so many levels, and sad in a way but I can appreciate the honestly in the overall outlook I suppose. I'd like to have more people playing I could potentially fuck is very understandable if shallow want since playing D&D doesn't = groupies like playing sports or music does. I hear it does in france, and in other parts of the Eu. Ymmv.

I wonder why sexual minorities were even brought up,

Now you know why. Its not pretty.
Hey there's actually a second. Women gamers bring that shit up too.
Normally as a venue to bitch about male behavior and the countless injustices they've suffered real and/or imagined at the gaming table. I remember that horrible board over on Wotc was full of that: Gamers need, maturity, social skills, hygiene. It's also a cry fom sisterhood so they have someone to complain to other than sycophantic males playing the understanding game. I realize this all sounds ... cynical but really... the totallity of the ops question is something people don't want to look at too closely really, they just want a method for getting more tits at the table.
I think that would occur more frequently if you actually have no problems aqquiing female friends in the first place. I mean there's a guy with a blog on playing (d&D) with pornstars.
@ Almaz. Dude. Welcome.

[Plebian]

I've seen a lot fewer black people playing than asians or hispanics but a lot of that can be contributed to the fact that D&D, and tabletops in general, is very much so viewed as a nerdy white dude hobby. so the answer is basically to make the hobby as accessible as possible and just let time take its slow course.

also the self-interest bit isn't necessarily bad; shared interests can make for a stable relationship and it's no weirder than meeting someone at a party or at any other social environment. of course, if you MAKE it weird that's another story.

[icyshadowlord]

It does seem rather tasteless to hear people talking about "landscape", since I never had that kind of attitude towards my female friends at the D&D table. And no, I am not gay either before anyone descends to that level of trolling. Adding to that, I have nothing against homosexuals either.

As for this new point of view...does it really matter what color skin you have when you play D&D? Hell, I've played most of my D&D games with a bunch of friends who were jewish. Sure, I live in a country where black people keep to themselves and can't even speak the native language in most cases, but I am quite sure there is at least one D&D-playing black person in Finland.

Lastly, apologies if any terms used here were offensive. Also, I wonder why nobody welcomed me to the boards despite me being new. But now that I said that, it's a bit too late to do so. Heheh.

[Midnight_v]

You didn't get a welcome cause your sig says you're a lurker. Implication being you know what you're getting into with us.

As for this new point of view...

Its not a new point of veiw, my friend, just drawn up for analysis sake.
Basically all if it leads to This:

So the answer is basically to make the hobby as accessible as possible and just let time take its slow course.

Seriously, just this. Thats the real answer right there.
I applaud you.

[PhoneLobster]

they just want a method for getting more tits at the table.

You have a problem with that, punk?

I've played D&D games where the only way I could have gotten more "tits at the table" would have been to replace myself with a female gamer. And I find it hard to say there were "enough tits" at that table.

So? And? You were going where with that?

Selfish motives aside having more female gamers around wouldn't hurt, even if, like me, as far as you've experienced there are actually quite a lot of them out there.

And from the actual female gamer anecdotes of "what girl gamers want" the things they want, more interactive deeper stories with less math... are exactly the same things lots of male players want...

We don't need to bend over backwards and make patronizing self censored changes to our games to attract women into the hobby.

We just have to not be jerks.

And as far as I can see cynically ranting on that, say, your GM or your fellow male player who brought a girl to the table and is TRYING to provide her with a good gaming experience is "just trying to get laid" really says a lot more about you, your attitude to women, and how much you may in fact be part of the problem, to the limited extent there is one.

Because seriously. You bring a girl to the gaming table, you show her a good time. Maybe you did that with the motive of sleeping with her, maybe not. But, thing is, she's a grown woman, she has a mind of her own, it's not like D&D is Rohypnol, all your desperate cries of how cynical the action of enjoying a game with women at the table fall rather flat in the light of the fact that hey, all "mating pool" you are disturbingly obsessing over are is entirely the female gamer's own choice to be a part of, or not, and a perfectly reasonable choice to make, or not.

The focus I think of the question asked in this thread is really more "Is there anything about the gaming table that isn't a good time for women?" than it is "How do I pick up girls using gaming?". They are actually both valid questions but the first one is really neutral on this whole "mating pool" thing you are obsessing over.

PS - In case we care... there already ARE large numbers of homosexuals in gaming. Why do I know? Do they all walk around wearing sequined body stockings and waving about limp wrists and hosting British celebrity talk shows everywhere? No. I know because there are large numbers of MEN in gaming, and it's pretty much a flat percentage of male population business so...

[Ghostwheel]

Stuff

[/lurk]
+1
[lurk]

[Midnight_v]

You have a problem with that, punk?

Punk? Like you're calling me a homo or a [EDITED]? LOL!
You're a fucking clown, I... I can't tell if you're serious or not.
I really hope you're not. Cause this:

provide her with a good gaming experience is "just trying to get laid" really says a lot more about you, your attitude to women,

"The I know you are but what am I?" argument? LOL FUCK! Bonkers funny, dude. Its just really sad if you mean buisness with that.
It just so much projection fail.
The thing is the question is fucking gibberish overall. None of us areally in posisition to change the entire medium of rpgs over all so ... The fucking real question why aren't "YOU" playing with more female gamers if thats your preference or whatever. Even if your reasons are like Plebian trying to enjoy the "Assmosphere" or whatever.
My point is that such thinking is actually Counter productive for everybody
Maybe you're not inviting your female friends to gaming night? I don't know what your base idea is there. There are gamer/anime/video girls out there in scores. Yeah. Are you playing rpg's to find something to fuck? I'm not. I enjoy the rpg experience (when done enjoyably).
Demographic questions like this are just bullshit. Largely paternalistic bullshit. Otherwise you don't ask shit like "how can we get more girls to play"
You work on making the game you play accesible to more PEOPLE which as if what you suggest is correct...
Large numbers of "PEOPLE in gaming, would indicate that a flat percentage of people would be women ?

Better to just find a good game and introduce as many of whatever target demographic to it in your circle you like, but over all either you're trolling me for the evlulz or your a being a mouthbreathing fuckwit, in this instance. Oh and fuck you lurker. jus' sayin'.

[shadzar]

So the answer is basically to make the hobby as accessible as possible and just let time take its slow course.

Seriously, just this. Thats the real answer right there.
I applaud you.

Not really, because this means catering to one group or another, rather than trying to make a game.

There doesn't need to be a game designed for women per say, and the hobby IS and has always been accessible to everyone. Like anything else in life, you just have to find the right group to share the hobby with.

You can't design D&D to be accessible for women, nor can you design any game for women, unless you are making a women's game.

The hobby is what it is, it jsut includes games. Either men and/or women choose to play the games and participate in the hobby or they dont.

The problem was never the hobby, but the people some chose to play with didnt welcome them, being women or whatever. Welcome to life. Some people jsut don't want to paly with other people be they women, blacks, jews, asshole DMs, asshole players, etc. No game can fix this, and it really isnt a problem.

The biggest problem is think everyone shoudl want to play with you, wherein you should find the people that do instead of trying to force everyone to get along.

If a group consists of guys sitting around telling jokes about women, then if you dont like that, male or female players, then don't play with them.

The hobby doesnt need to change, just the people playing it or joining it need to accept what it is...small groups of people participating in a shared activity. Like any other small group you just find the one that works for you no matter who you are.

People always trying to needlessly change something only hinders any change form occurring. So understand the hobby always was accessible to all, just the players didnt want some playing with them, so find the group of people that wants you in the hobby, or accepts you into the hobby without also trying to change YOU.

So don't try to change each other, just find people who already are of similar interests to play with.

Looking at gaming in general there has been no shortage ever, from mother's playing monopoly, rook, spades, bridge, sorry, chutes and ladders, candyland, etc with their kids, to girlfriends playing or trying something to be closers to their boyfriends and such.

The hobby hasnt changed, just people finally learning how to fit in with it and where they belong in it. a group of guys objectifying women and seeing them as sex toys, isnt a group to try to join or change if you are a women...just find another group.

The 11 year old girl who created the AD&D spell Tasha's Uncontrollable Hideous Laughter didnt seem to have a problem in the 80's to find a group to play with or a problem with the game or hobby. Like her, everyone needs to just find the right group rather than expect a company to make a product or series of product to "revolutionize the hobby".

CCG tournament are held at nights at comic book stores so the comic book buyers dont often have to deal with the loud and obnoxious CCG players, likewise comic books vs RPG, RPGs vs CCG players.... just some groups dont mix well. It is part of the overall gaming hobby, that you play with the people you enjoy playing with. This isnt PE in school where you have to play with people you dont get along with or something, you get to choose who you play with.

Why is it so often today people blame things, or say things in a manner that looks like placing blame on things, that are not at fault, where the blame most often lies with the people laying the blame for not taking responsibility for their own actions?

"This hobby isnt accessible to person Y."

Yes it was, just the group of people you tried to join didnt want you in it or you didnt fit well with them or enjoy their company.

[Ghostwheel]

Stuff

I randomly looked at the response to Midnight_v's post. Then I regretted it. The intermittent occurrence of spelling mistakes/typos made my brain warp slightly and caused a feeling of vertigo before I was able to even reach the content of the post. (Though this might be contributed to by my lack of sleep, as it is now almost 5 AM in the morning, and may have added to the next part.) Then a sense of revulsion and nausea rose up in my gorge as my mind tried to understand what it saw, and failed.

Lesson learned: Don't randomly view shadzar's posts. Remember that you put it on ignore for a reason.

I'm going to need brain bleach.

[sabs]

tons of Minorities play. You get as many minority games, as you have minority nerds.

The problem with women and gaming is usually the male players.

Fat Chick jokes (especially when one of the women gamers may be slightly overweight and the guy making the joke about fat chicks is 300lbs and greasy)
Stupid (I hit on her, let me roll some dice) stupidity
I stab it.. harhar, let me loudly count up all 17 of my superawesome modifiers! one at a time! Cause I RULE! War gaming has it's place, but roleplaying is more than that.

I'ven known plenty of women gamers, and usually they're better roleplayers/actors than the guys.

[tzor]

Vampires are hot. Hotness totally counts.

Vampires are generally "Gothic" (note not Goth) which means if often has romantic elements woven into the horror. This really breaks the whole argument of the female including through removal of sexual themes in art. There is nothing as sexually explicit as the cover art of the average Romantic Pulp Fiction Paperback, which attracts the ladies.

And I do agree with Maj on one important point, unless you are designing a game specifically for a bunch of scouts (I know boy scouts count, I don't know about girl scouts) there is a lot of things about being out in the open that people want to generally avoid (such as building latrines, etc). The romance novel is great at this; go through hell and back but always look good in the process.

On the details I might disagree (but then again, I've never liked padded armor) it's got to look good and look like it works at the same time. Joan of Arc wore chain (and no jokes about dressing like a guy ...) and wore it well.

P.S. "I stab it" is boring as hell for me as well. It's one of those dirty little secrets of the days when combat was as boring as hell (1E AD&D) that most of the time was spent on everything else but combat. Now that particular arrangement of searching, mapping, avoiding hidden dangers, etc might not appeal to the modern gamer of whatever gender, but the point was that there was a variety of activities that was associated with gaming ... it was not just a combat game.

[JigokuBosatsu]

This got me thinking about music.

A while back I wrote a post at the music blog I write for about the idea of choosing women to work/play with, and we've had several conversations on this topic. It seems like there are many more women in music- especially indie music, where they are less of a sex object than in pop. Mind you, there have always been strong and creative women in this field, but I think as the music scene becomes more participatory- you know, everyone has a band- this will just get better and better. Perhaps roleplaying is just farther behind on this curve(it has definitely always been more participatory), and a similar infusion from indie/Euro games will help push it along.

I made a conscious choice a couple of years ago that I was done with the 'sweaty dudes in a garage' model of rocking out, and so far except for the odd wedding and studio gig, I have stuck with it. This was an aesthetic choice on my part, as I do believe women bring a different set of experiences and cultural perspective to things, disregarding any biology.

But I did have to search heart my to make sure it wasn't all about the boobies.