Regarding Book of Gears: Constructs, worst sort of slavery o

[Judging__Eagle]

I know that BoG will cover Constructs, but I want to know if the morality of construct creation will be discussed?

B/c to create most constructs, you need to enslave unwilling elementals. Which is utter bullshit or it's MM propaganda.

Also, it doesn't explain Maugs or Warforged (intelligent construct mercenaries and intelligent semi-contruct creatures); let alone Inevitables, b/c they're sentient contructs.

Also, what happens if you Awaken a Construct or turn a Construct into an Incarnate Construct?

Is the elemental in power again? Do they gain their own soul? Is the elemental driven out and replaced with a soul?

Also, Animated Objects and the morality of creatiing them would also be interesting. I guess they're the construct equivalent of skeletons and zombies.

I'm guessing that the real deal for a lot of these questions is somewhere along the lines that you either don't need an elemental at all, or elementals that are "enslaved" really aren't. I dunno, just some questions.

Also, will there be any material on being able to be a Contruct using spell caster?

That's a concept that I've never seen as being remotely possible, except unless you only have Warforged cohorts or something. Which works, but the wizard that shuns creating aberrations, magical beasts or undead and instead uses golems is an idea that, while uncommon is possible to believe.

[Username17]

When you make a golem, you don't use an elemental, you use an "elemental spirit", which is apparently mindless. What Spirits are in D&D is pretty unclear. I suspect that they don't actually exist and eare the true D&D equivalent of religion - the people in Faerun don't actually know how everything works and anything that can't be explained with current Weave theory is ascribed to the work of invisible spirits.

-Username17

[Judging__Eagle]

Phew, so it's all bullshit to begin with?

So, the same type of stuff that powers undead, powers constructs.

Hmm, that makes some sense.

Golems are powered by a: "direct connection with the elemental plane of earth"

[User3]

I don't know, golems requiring an enslaved elemental would be all kinds of cool flavor-wise.

Here's the thing: elementals don't have souls. They can't - souls are the province of the outer planes and the outer planes are inaccessible from the inner planes. Creatures without souls aren't moral beings - they don't and can't recognize good and evil as concepts. Therefore there's no reason to suspect enslaving them is actually evil.

[Digestor]

They can't recognize evil, but you can. You're doing the enslaving, not them.

If they can feel or have any possible preference to not being enslaved, then I'd consider that "bad", even if only marginally.

[Cielingcat]

Earth elementals would have no real problem with being stuck in a golem, unless it was a flesh golem or a prismatic golem or something else that isn't made of earth. Remember, earth elementals exist for the sole purpose of "being earth", just as fire elementals live to be on fire.

[User3]

1177623028[/unixtime]]Earth elementals would have no real problem with being stuck in a golem, unless it was a flesh golem or a prismatic golem or something else that isn't made of earth. Remember, earth elementals exist for the sole purpose of "being earth", just as fire elementals live to be on fire.

Remember the D+D world is a platonic world. Flesh is earth. From dust you came and to dust you shall return. (The prismatic golem is also made of 'earth', but you might want a "mineral" elemental from the quasi-plane anyway). I suppose one could argue that flesh is earth and water, but a flesh golem has basically lost that water component anyway.

(In the platonic system, the body is water/earth, the mind is air, and the emotions and groin are fire. The body is separable of course - into solids and liquids)

[Judging__Eagle]

Prismatic Golems are made of pure light. Don't ask why, it's just wierd.

[Brobdingnagian]

I've always like the idea of using Positive Energy to animate constructs. After all, a Zombie is really just a Flesh Golem that a) uses only parts from one creature and b) is animated by Negative Energy, not an unwilling Elemental spirit. Yes, it says 'unwilling', it's right there in the Monster Manual.

More importantly, though, while browsing through my MM, I noticed the Ravid. It creates Animated Objects by infusing them with Positive Energy. So... why can't we do that with all Contructs? It'd make sense, if we're assuming the Positive and Negative Energy Planes are just neutral forces and dangerous places.

Also, the 'Undying' template is stupid. It should die.

[Catharz]

Good call!

It does leave an open question about intelligent undead and constructs, though. And what the hell a "soul" is.

And I thought that flesh golems were animated via an infusion of electrical energy...

[erik]

1177710547[/unixtime]]
And I thought that flesh golems were animated via an infusion of electrical energy...

Otherwise known as negative energy. Notice how electrons are symbolized by the minus sign... Coincidence? Hardly.

Electricity = negative energy = evil! Fvck! Now I have to lie here worrying about when my appliances will animate with evil energy and turn upon me and the cats.

[Cielingcat]

Cats are also evil. We established that on the WotC boards long, long ago.

[Brobdingnagian]

Intelligent undead and constructs are just like intelligent creatures. The only real difference is that creatures create their own energy through whatever various process evolution has given them (for most, consuming food, for plant creatures, I dunno, photosynthesis) while constructs and undead can't do that, so they would rely on energy from another source; aka, the Positive and Negative Energy Planes.

And since electricity is negative energy, would that make Lightning Bolt an evil spell under The Crawling Darkness option?

[Crissa]

Electricity is the flow of natural energies from one element to another.

Rub two elementals of the same type together and you get electricity. Same goes for negative and positive.

-Crissa

[Brobdingnagian]

Air Elemental sex makes lightning storms then?

[Catharz]

1177802406[/unixtime]]Air Elemental sex makes lightning storms then?

Well ya, where did you think they came from?

[Brobdingnagian]

Angels bowling? Wait, that's thunder...

Some scientific formula that I can't be bothered to remember right now?

[Judging__Eagle]

Clouds getting jiggy with it makes lightning, which creates thunder.

[User3]

1177767810[/unixtime]]

1177710547[/unixtime]]
And I thought that flesh golems were animated via an infusion of electrical energy...

Otherwise known as negative energy. Notice how electrons are symbolized by the minus sign... Coincidence? Hardly.

Actually, electricity is produced by jumping energy from high - low 'concentrations' of electrons. Hence lightning jumps from the ground into the sky.

Thus, what we should actually see in the elemental planes is huge bolts of lightning hopping from the negative to the positive plane. Probably through Vacuum-Air-Lightning planes because I think that has the least resistance.

The fact that lightning is a quasi-elemental plane should just make people very sad. (of course, Cold is a para-elemental plane... I mean Ice, really).

[tzor]

1177767810[/unixtime]]Otherwise known as negative energy. Notice how electrons are symbolized by the minus sign... Coincidence? Hardly.

Yes. The charge signs of + and - were developed long before anyone knew of electrons or of positively charged ions. This resulted in the odd irony that if you take a nice atom and remove an electron, this removal somehow grants something "positive" to the electron. (A positive charge.) It's positivlely aggrivating!

Squirrelloid, I'm going by memory here but lightning is mostly driven by positive ions and not by free electrons, although it's a complex interaction.

Elemental theory is a complex notion especially when one tries to push it into atomic theory. In addition the classical five elemental system of elemental theory (earth, air, fire, water and that most classified state secret ether) is not properly related in first edition AD&D cosmology where most of the elemental stuff still comes from. (para-elements were added in 2nd edition AD&D)

[virgil]

Nah, definitely not through the vacuum plane will the electricity travel. Vaccuum is about the best conductor you could possible have. The lightning would like travel from salt-water-steam.

[User3]

1177944569[/unixtime]] (para-elements were added in 2nd edition AD&D)

Not true. I have a 1st edition manual of the planes which has paraelemental planes in it. (And quasi). I also have all the 1st edition MMs (including FF) which has elementals from at least the paraelemental planes, as well as some quasi-elemental denizens. (Dust Walkers or whatever, etc...). The para- and quasi- elemental planes are most definitely a 1st edition thing, if perhaps reasonably late in 1st edition.

[User3]

1177954185[/unixtime]]Nah, definitely not through the vacuum plane will the electricity travel. Vaccuum is about the best conductor you could possible have. The lightning would like travel from salt-water-steam.

Best conductor tends to imply least resistance...

Oh, the above post was also me... whoops

[Iaimeki]

I'm pretty sure that unless I'm remembering wrong, a classical vacuum is a perfect insulator, i.e., it won't conduct electricity at all. Air is also a very good insulator.

[Brobdingnagian]

So back on track for a minute.

How do constructs work? Golems apparently function by binding an unwilling elemental spirit (yes, that's evil, though I would think lawful rather than classically chaotic), but that doesn't explain sentient constructs or even any other constructs at all. The Animated Objects that follow a Ravid around are animated through Positive Energy, and since all undead, intelligent or not, can be animated through Negative Energy, it only makes sense that all constructs could be animated through Positive Energy. Thus the difference between 'Construct' and 'Undead' would simply be what type of energy is used to animate it.

Of course, this is fairly unwieldy using The Crawling Darkness option, but then, that option is unwieldy (and dumb) to begin with.