Cheese Updates, 3.5

[fbmf]

Because it is now a supernatural ability of a creature and therefore governed by those rules.

The only passage I could find in the SRD, admittedly after a brief search, was

Adding Hit Dice to a creature improves several of its abilities, and radical increases might not follow this progression indefinitely. Compare the monster’s improved attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, and any DCs of its special abilities from the HD increase to typical characters of the appropriate level and adjust the CR accordingly.

which is exceptionally vague. Can you piint me to a more specific passage?

Game On,
fbmf

[Username17]

The Saving Throw (if any) against a Supernatural Ability is 10 + 1/2 the creature's HD + the creature's ability modifier (usually Charisma).

-Username17

[Oberoni]

So, for the Po' Druid, how does he Shapechange?

That jade circlet is expensive.

[da_chicken]

Well, the BoED suggest either begging for expensive material components or spending 1 XP per 5 gp of the cost.

However, focus components are a bit different. Begging seems a bit out of place, since the item retains it's value. And the XP cost is too high (300 XP per casting).

I would probably do one of the following:
* Set the XP cost for focuses to 1 XP per 25gp. That makes shapechange cost 60 XP. I think ~100 XP would be more appropriate, but that's 'cause I like simple numbers.
* Require the item to cost 1,500gp to craft, but have no value whatsoever when completed. This is a bit convoluted. I'd suggest a minor holy relic like the sort found in a Phylactery of Faithfulness. Or a cube crafted from 6 different, rare types of stone joined together (but otherwise valueless).
* Give the spell a sacrifice cost of some other sort. 1d6 Charisma damage or whatever.


Perhaps you could use a planar ally spell (cast by a cleric, of course) to bring a bit of the earth from a special location on Ysgard to you for some payment.

Or go on a quest for the item.

[Username17]

The items in your spell component pouch are exempt from your poverty restrictions - which includes focus restrictions.

You still have to get the money in the first place, but investing it into a Jade Circlet of Shape Changing is one of the few ways it is actually considered legitimate to spend bling on yourself.

-Username17

[Oberoni]

Frank, why do they have that section on expensive material components, then, if it's a non-issue? And what part specifically allows the use of expensive spell components?

I'm checking now, since I'm currently favoring this character type for the next campaign I'm in, and I want to be able to show my DM exactly why I'm allowed to bust out the jade circlet.

chicken, you have some good ideas as well that I may consider.

[Jack_Lurch]

Or go on a quest for the item.

Wouldn't it be considered party treasure from the quest, and wouldn't the Vow of Poverty prevent him from keeping it?

I agree that him having the item as a focus isn't that big a deal. Wouldn't you allow a ascetic wizard to keep a spellbook?

-Jack

[Count Arioch the 28th]

I would allow focus items if they were bought by someone else.

Also, I would allow an ascetic wizard to have a spellbook.

[da_chicken]

1074262583[/unixtime]]

Or go on a quest for the item.

Wouldn't it be considered party treasure from the quest, and wouldn't the Vow of Poverty prevent him from keeping it?

No. If the party goes on "a quest to discover an item to allow the VoP druid to use shapechange", then what you find is used for that.

It's like saying "we go on a quest to find the Sword of Kas and destroy it" and then giving it to the fighter because it's "party treasure".

I agree that him having the item as a focus isn't that big a deal. Wouldn't you allow a ascetic wizard to keep a spellbook?

-Jack

Yeah, but spellbooks have little value. Indeed, if you take a spellbook with nothing but the spells the character learns over the the life of the PC, the spells you learn as you level, the book has no gold value at all (since none went into it).

Ones you find can be donated once you get the spells out of them. I think BoED says Wizards can beg for donations to pay for scribing scrolls. In any case, ascetic wizards have a number of problems that make the idea less appealing.

My biggest problem conceptually is that the item is still worth 1,500gp after everything is said and done.

[Username17]

Frank, why do they have that section on expensive material components, then, if it's a non-issue?

It's not a non-issue. You can't keep any money. So even though you are allowed to have and even buy material components, you can't "save up" for them. So if your share of the party treasure is 1,000 gp - you are no closer to getting your Jade Circlet. In fact, if your share of the party treasure is 1,000 gp twenty times - you are still no closer to getting your jade circlet.

A character who has forsaken material possessions may find himself at a marked disadvantage when it comes to certain necessary expenses, such as expensive material components. One option is for ascetic characters to beg components from other party members...

So yeah, you can totally have expensive components - you just can't have gold pieces for very long. The XP or GP thing is an optional rule.

All in all, I don't approve of the Book of Exalted Deeds. It provides a moral framework in which "Good" is in most ways indistinguishable from "Stupid." Being "Good" has absolutely nothing to do with the results of your actions, and everything to do with some extremely dumbly defined set of action methodologies - which is completely backwards and useless.

"Exalted" characters are frequently going to cause more harm than good, provided that harm is measured in the traditional way of "how much average people suffer" and good is measured in the traditional way of "how much people benefit." With such bad writing and obvious religious bias coloring every aspect of the book - I wouldn't get terribly surprised by the fact that sections of the book don't make sense to you. For example: it's perfectly OK for people who have taken a Vow of Nonviolence to cast suggestion and tell their victims to jump off a cliff - but shooting the same enemy with some Insanity Mist to knock them out is right out for a variety of reasons even though the creature will survive the Insanity Mist and won't survive the Suggestion.

Ones you find can be donated once you get the spells out of them. I think BoED says Wizards can beg for donations to pay for scribing scrolls.

Nope. Magic Item possession is right out - as is magic item creation of any kind. Ascetic Wizards cannot scribe scrolls. Whether they can have spellbooks depends upon whether you use the Forgotten Realms sourcebooks or not. If you do, spellbooks have a defined cost which is independent of where the spells came from and even a 1st level Wizard's book is way over the limit.

If you don't, then there is no listed cost, and then you have to argue to your DM that the book has no value - since spellbooks are very definately not on the extremely short of list of things that can have any value that you can have (which includes things like "1 day's trail rations"). However, one of the things that is on the list is your spell components - and there is no upper limit to that. Actually, there is also no limit to what they use their spell components for - so there is no actual wealth limit for Poverty characters - provided they run their entire personal economy in diamonds.

-Username17

[Oberoni]

so there is no actual wealth limit for Poverty characters - provided they run their entire personal economy in diamonds.

...

Ooooh, that's just sneaky.

I like it.

[User3]

Hmmph.

well, Frank, if you ever play in my game, don't pick good alignment, because the standards in BoED is more or less the same standards I've held good characters to for nearly 5 years now.

Except the mercy thing. If they betray you once, you are free to give them the best mercy of all: a swift death.

And the big problem with the BoED feats that it more or less requiores you to follow the Oberoni Fallacy, in a way, that there is simply no way that you can rule them in anything but a condition by condition case. (The suggestion to tell someone to throw themselves over a cliff is obviously harmful, you lose your vow of peace for that.)

[Oberoni]

Even a worse-case interpretation of the "expensive component" line is really not a big deal, now that I look at it.

It would just mean you have to...ask your friend to borrow "their" Jade Circlet every time you want to cast the spell. Oh no.

[da_chicken]

Vow of Poverty comes out and explicitly says you must follow the intent of the vow as well as the letter. Do you really think a character who took this vow would really try to lawyer ways to let him do what he wants?

At best he would be willing to cast spells with expensive components on his party members -- assuming the components came from those members. If you're going to just use the spell on yourself (that is, only you directly benefit) I'd probably require you to spend the XP. Indeed, I lean toward the idea that

But if you have an item that you carry, that only you use, and has some inherent value -- it's wealth. You must come up with a good reason to be carrying it around. Is it going to be donated? Is it supplies for spells your companions have requested you use on them? Especially spells like raise dead, but probably also spells like stoneskin. For trivial spells like identify, it would not be unreasonable to request a donation for your services.

A 1,500 gp jade circlet would be wealth. That's kinda why it says "1,500 go" there. And it isn't someone else's circlet, no matter how much you semantically lawyer it to be. Only you directly benefit from it. Only you use it. Only you really want it. It's yours.

Frank prolly thinks this is dumb and good being stupid. But good says that ends do not justify means. Killing an orc to cleanse the world of evil is a good act. Converting the orc from evil to good to cleanse the world of evil is an exalted one. Guess which one this feat falls under?

You've sworn an oath to not accept wealth in any material form. I can think of no reason such a character would ever even think of potentially violating that oath for one spell. In-character, the caster would ignore shapechange without even thinking about it.

Out-of-character and mechanically, we know that there's nothing wrong with a VoP druid or sorcerer having this spell. But you're trying to fabricate an IC loophole that will let you ignore the oath your character took.

If you really want this spell, your character would another means to use it. You just have to find some way to do it.

Edit: Dang cows.

[Oberoni]

The main problem with that, chicken, is that your interpretation isn't what the book says.

A character who has forsaken material possessions may find himself at a marked disadvantage when it comes to certain necessary expenses, such as material components. One option is for ascetic characters to beg components from other party members, who are probably gaining as much benefit from casting the spell as the caster is.

It's right there in black and white--the designers don't want to bone you out of casting spells, so they give you an option, right there, to ask other members for components.

If they didn't want you to cast spells on yourself with borrowed components, they'd say something like "the spells you cast with borrowed components may only benefit other members; casting spells with borrowed components that only directly affect yourself still counts as breaking your vow."

But they didn't say that, and we both know that this line:

who are probably gaining as much benefit from casting the spell as the caster is.]

Doesn't mean that. It just means "hey, here's a justification why we allow the ascetic to borrow components." Yes, the party really does benefit tremendously if the ascetic Shapechanges into some fuggin' huge beast.

So chicken, your perspective is against both the intent and the rules as explicitly laid out on page 30.

[Lago_AM3P]

You can't super-extend your spells anymore with the cleric archer, however, which was a great way to get all-day mojo out of spells like freedom of movement, anti-life shell, magic circle against evil, etc.

Also, persistent spell is getting a rather gigantic nerf in the coming edition, as per Ron Baker, the designer of the FR Campaign Setting. Heads up.

[da_chicken]

Nope... still doesn't sit right with me. Goes against how I see the feat being intended to work. I mean, you can't even use a cure light wounds charge out of a wand, but keeping something that could feed a family of 5 for a year is OK?

I agree that they're trying not to nerf spellcasters with it. But I don't think any VoP character would use such a thing. It just doesn't make any sense, and it feels to me like intentionally challenging your own vow.

Also note that the book says "probably gaining as much benefit". To me, that's what says that they need a direct benefit. Identify? Sure. Raise dead? Definately. Divination? More than likely. Atonement? Very often. Secure chest? No. Forcecage? Nope.

I should think that a VoP PC would work to avoid wasting resources on spells rather than helping those in need. I'd say they should do their best to find alternate routes.

But that's just how I read the intent.

[Lago_AM3P]

I agree with da chicken here.

The jade circlet isn't even a magical item, so it doesn't fall under the clause of 'borrowing a spell effect to kick ass'. It's a focus, a hefty chunk of change at that, and then you run around wearing it like a magical (invisible) crown.

If we allowed VoP characters to have silly crap like that, then what's stopping them from just loading up on 50 or so jade circlets?

[Oberoni]

Ok, I'm not going to bother to argue what others may think the intent is, if we're just going to ignore what the feat says and replace it with how we think it would work.

Fortunately, that's not an issue here.

Barring some strange ruling I have yet to hear of, you only really need that circlet for a total of one action. Stick it on, focus your magic through it, give it back to your friend.

Now you're actually allowed to use one of your best spells, and you don't run around with a jade circlet on your poor head.

[Lago_AM3P]

But you can't do that. The circlet melds into your new form.

It's not like drinking the potion to grow your legs back or to be able to be like Peter Pan, only with more swordness, it's part of the spell.

So it shouldn't be viewed any differently than strapping yourself into a suit of golden power armor and fighting against evil, even if the armor doesn't doesn't belong to you.

Now. If someone could show me a way how to use this spell while allowing some altruistic party member to snatch the jade circlet off of your head, I'll buy that.

In fact, I'll even change my way past cool avatar to this guy: http://home.coqui.net/mujica/ramon/Manlymario.gif

[Oberoni]

Nah, it totally doesn't need to.

Focus: A jade circlet worth no less than 1,500 gp, which you must place on your head when casting the spell. (The focus melds into your new form when you change shape.)

If I cast Shapechange, I can say "current form." I asssume the form of...myself.

Since I'm not changing my shape, I'm not...changing my shape, which means that the 'when' condition never gets met.

So, from then on, I have about three hours of the spell left, given the duration.

I can take the circlet off, give it to my buddy, and change into a dragon the very next round.

[Username17]

I mean, you can't even use a cure light wounds charge out of a wand, but keeping something that could feed a family of 5 for a year is OK?

That's what it says, yes.

And from the book that says that the SPCA is an Evil organization because of their Native Animal Rescue work, I hardly think that it's at all surprising that what the book really says seems to violate your conceptualizations of what it should say.

-Username17

[fbmf]

And from the book that says that the SPCA is an Evil organization because of their Native Animal Rescue work

I have to show this to my vegan animal rights gaming buddies. Could you cite it for me?

Game On,
fbmf

[Username17]

Here's a news report on safely removing a bear from human occupied territory:

The bear, which was caught in the Mound Cemetery, was transported to public land in Monroe County. Both ears were tagged and a tooth was pulled to assist in aging the bear.
...
It took less than nine minutes after ODNR officers shot the bear with a tranquilizer, for him to fall asleep. He was then weighed, placed inside a piece of culvert converted into a cage, and transported to Monroe County.

Tom Monroe, another assistant director of wildlife for ODNR, said the tranquilizer would wear off in two hours time. So, ODNR, had about 90 minutes maximum to move the bear to safety.

And here is some admonishments of what "Good" people can't do:

Violence against evil is acceptable when it is directed at stopping or preventing evil acts from being done.
...
Likewise, the use of torture or other practices that inflict undue suffering upon the victims goes beyond the pale of what can be considered good.
...
Poison and disease are generally tools of evil monsters and characters, implements of corruption and destruction.

So... when you attack the Neutral bear (who is not evil, and was not actually committing any evil acts), with a debilitating poison which causes the bear to pass out several minutes later (which is poison which causes ability damage), and then "deface" the bear by putting a tag in its ear and pulling a tooth out (which is mutilation and torture by these definitions) - you've just committed three evil acts as the "means" to accomplish the "ends" of bringing the bear safely into the wild. And as we all know, the ends do not justify the means according to these stupid books - so proper wildlife management is Evil.

What the exalted character is apparently supposed to do under the circumstances is to whip out a sword and throw himself inbetween the bear and the children and fight the bear until he or the bear lies dead. And then if he triumphs feel really bad about it because the bear, while dangerous, was still a living thing and was not acting with malice. Which means that "exalted" characters are dangerous madmen who need to be stopped at all costs.

-Username17

[fbmf]

Nope. Magic Item possession is right out - as is magic item creation of any kind. Ascetic Wizards cannot scribe scrolls.

I can't find where it says this. Do you mean he can't do it because he can't own the ink, quill, and scroll paper? What if it was something he was making for his homies, and he only contributed the XP and Feat?

Also, could the ascetic wizard benefit from casting spells on himself, and then making them permanent?

Game On,
fbmf