Help with a bad idea, and the opportunity for a side-bet

[Amra]

So, I'm engaged in a deliberately futile exercise to make a point. The aim of the game: to attempt to play a rules-as-written game, insofar as such a thing is possible, with no house rules.

No matter how crazy they might be, no "official" adjudications are to be ignored - up to and including Skip Williams' coked-up ranting and the out-and-out wrongness of many FAQ rulings. I intend to adhere to whatever WotC have dribbled out on any subject; the only time I'll put anything other than a by-the-letter interpretation on the rules is when there isn't anything else to go on.

The case I'm making: core games are more-or-less impossible, or at least are as barmy as hell, if playing by Rules as Written.

In the spirit of fairness, if there's an ambiguity that's not clarified by an official WotC article, errata or FAQ I'll put the least game-breaking interpretation on the rules. However, I will override *nothing* that is strictly legal. The only limitation on WotC material used is "if I don't have access to it", which ought not to slow anyone down much.

If anything is to be barred from the game, it'll be by the players themselves; I'll just interpret legality but it's up to them to *ask* me to stop the pain if someone pulls an over-ripe Camembert out of their pocket and smears it across the universe.

The game begins at 13th level, which I reckon is plenty high enough that they ought to be able to reduce the adventure to a smouldering pile of rubble in a single session. The thing is, they don't *want* that to happen so they're probably going to try to avoid it. My personal take is that they won't be able to avoid a bucketload of stupid being tipped over the game: not with a literal interpretation of the rules.

So, the help I'd like if you've got a minute is: can anyone list off the top of their heads the best way to get caster level boosts, preferably divine/arcane agnostic? Sources quoted, if you'd be so kind. I'm going to try to make the players cheese it up themselves rather than do it myself: it'll be more satisfying when they start moaning about something that someone in the group has gotten away with than it would be if I pulled some wacky NPC stunt. However, I'd like to keep something in reserve and a mad caster level stunt seems like just the thing...

The side-bet I'd be interested in is this: what piece of brain-melting inconsistency do you think they'll run into first, either inadvertently or because in an all-you-can-munchkin game they won't be able to help themselves? The winner gets a glowing sense of superiority for all of thirty seconds or so...

[MrWaeseL]

up to and including Skip Williams' coked-up ranting and the out-and-out wrongness of many FAQ rulings.

Do you have a link to this?

[Cielingcat]

Yeah, it's called the official FAQ.

[shirak]

The players can counter your point by playing an all-fighter party. Or maybe all-Commoner...

[Username17]

Unnamed bonuses stack with everything, so the best way to get caster level bonuses is to simply get a slotless magic item that adds to caster level and repeat for credit. Orange Ioun Stones and Candles of Invocation work wonders for this. Burn 5 Candles at once and you can prepare spells as a Cleric 20 levels higher than you are. That's like 10k buying it from stores.

So yes, for 10 thousand a day, a 1st level Cleric can prepare and cast spells as an Epic Cleric.

---

Also at 13th level, there's the Red Wizard. You'll want Leadership of course, but since you have the power to staple the tattoos to anyone you want, it's not even a problem getting the pile of acolytes together required for your Caster Level of 30. That makes you transcend greater dispelling.

-Username17

[shirak]

1181834703[/unixtime]]Unnamed bonuses stack with everything

Does this supersede the "No Stacking from the same source" rule? If yes, where is the relevant ruling?


As for Amra's question:

From memory, the best I can think of is the is the Beholder Mage1/Ur-Priest1/MyTh10/True Necro8

If it wasn't broken for the crazy CL on the whole of the Wizard and Cleric Spell Lists, it would be for the ability to throw ten spells per level.

Arcane Caster Level: 34
Divine Caster Level: 51
* 35/52 for necromancy spells

You'll need Negative levels shenanigans and a PAO to Beholder to pull this off. Still not good as the Word though.

[Username17]

Does this supersede the "No Stacking from the same source" rule? If yes, where is the relevant ruling?

Yes. PHB, p. 172. Not that it's important in this instance, because multiple magical items are not the same source even if they look the same and have the same name - same source only applies to spells (and still doesn't affect unnamed bonuses).

The literal text is:

Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves.
...
A bonus that isn't named (just a "+2 bonus" rather than a "+2 resistance bonus) stacks with any bonus.

-Username17

[Amra]

1181834512[/unixtime]]The players can counter your point by playing an all-fighter party. Or maybe all-Commoner...

Ah... but already they have been lured in. I suspect it would be possible to break the world even with an all-Fighter party, but in this case the prospect of a no-holds-barred mini-campaign has got them generating hybridised casting classes and Rogues with odd templates even as we speak. This should be a cinch, but they have to render the game defunct - or come across something so self-contradictory (like the True Necromancer not being able to use his own rebuke undead class feature) - that I *have* to house-rule in order for the game to remain playable.

And they will have to ask me to do it

[shirak]

1181843300[/unixtime]]

1181834512[/unixtime]]The players can counter your point by playing an all-fighter party. Or maybe all-Commoner...

Ah... but already they have been lured in. I suspect it would be possible to break the world even with an all-Fighter party, but in this case the prospect of a no-holds-barred mini-campaign has got them generating hybridised casting classes and Rogues with odd templates even as we speak. This should be a cinch, but they have to render the game defunct - or come across something so self-contradictory (like the True Necromancer not being able to use his own rebuke undead class feature) - that I *have* to house-rule in order for the game to remain playable.

And they will have to ask me to do it

Ah. I was laboring under the assumption that by break the game you meant be so powerful that they play Nobilis and not D&D.

How does an infinite time loop sound? There's a Lancer build around that allows you to jump from your mount to the ground with a fixed DC Ride check and back up again. With no limit. So, Player #1 says "I jump from Mr. Horsey to the ground" and everyone else goes to watch Lost until Player #1 gets tired of repeating himself.
Can't find the link, i think it was one from a Paladin thread?


Btw, I have updated my dual-casting build above

[Fwib]

That dismount/mount thing would be free actions, yes? I'm fairly sure that the rules say the GM has to rule on how many free actions you get per round - and based on the OP, I'd suspect that Amra wouldn't be ruling 'unlimited'

[Amra]

Yeah, it's a real pity but I would feel obliged to put some sort of limit on anything that actually *says* the DM has to house-rule it. In that instance it's actually fair as the game is explicitly relying on DM guidance...

Pity really, but I'll play it by the book. It'd be too easy and no fun to use DM fiat to deliberately break the game, even if the game gives me the opportunity to do so.

I think the rot is going to set in without my help; already some players have started saying what they'd be "prepared to put up with" from other players. It's only a matter of time before someone snaps and begs me to intervene and we haven't even got through character generation yet!

It makes me laugh; now they're all policing each other and they'll soon be *itching* to ask me to overrule things other people are doing that they think are going to break the game.

I wonder how long it'll take before they concede: I think if I were a betting man, I'd have a fiver on "before the first die is cast in play"?

[Fwib]

Bring in a Mirror of Opposition!

[Amra]

1181834703[/unixtime]]Unnamed bonuses stack with everything, so the best way to get caster level bonuses is to simply get a slotless magic item that adds to caster level and repeat for credit.

Hmmm, yes, of course... We a-like-a verrrry much I'm familiar with Candles of Invocation. Should have thought of that, and naturally the best way to go is Divine Persistent Metamagic for buffs cast at an insane level that the party haven't a hope of dispelling. Woot!

Orange Ioun Stones and Candles of Invocation work wonders for this. Burn 5 Candles at once and you can prepare spells as a Cleric 20 levels higher than you are.

10 levels higher, but your point is well taken!

That's like 10k buying it from stores.

Well, they're 8,400gp per shot but on the other hand...

So yes, for 10 thousand a day, a 1st level Cleric can prepare and cast spells as an Epic Cleric.

10 thousand per day? Possibly a lot less, by my reading...

A cleric whose alignment matches the candle's operates as if two levels higher for purposes of determining spells per day if he burns the candle during or just prior to his spell preparation time. He can even cast spells normally unavailable to him, as if he were of that higher level, but only so long as the candle continues to burn. Except in special cases (see below), a candle burns for 4 hours.

Emphasis mine. So, to prepare spells as a [caster level +(2*no. of candles)] cleric, you can burn the candle "just prior to" spell preparation time. What in the name of all the evil gods does that fvcking mean? How long for?

I'd say a round before spell preparation time should do it. Then he just needs to burn the candles for one round per spell cast after preparation time to be able to cast the spells he has prepared. Each candle will last 4 hours, or 2400 rounds, so if you want to cast twenty spells per day like this (plus burning time of one round before prep), each candle will last for 114 days.

In honour of the late, great Roald Dahl, I hereby christen Candles of Invocation the "Divine Everlasting Gobstopper", or "Everlasting God-stocker" if you prefer.

Cost per day = 73.5gp * no. of candles. Seems pretty cheap to me! Thanks for that one, Frank... it's ugly.

I suppose to really put the tin lid on it, the aspiring cleric should really invest in Incense of Meditation to Maximize everything he prepares whilst doing it... but why, on the other hand, would he bother with spells that even *have* dice-per-level of anything?

1181834703[/unixtime]]Also at 13th level, there's the Red Wizard. You'll want Leadership of course, but since you have the power to staple the tattoos to anyone you want, it's not even a problem getting the pile of acolytes together required for your Caster Level of 30. That makes you transcend greater dispelling.

Hmmm, Red Wizard, never really... <flicks through DMG>... I knew there was a reason I never played the Realms. Wow. I mean, 1 circle bonus level per level of prepared spells cast into it? I suppose the only limitation is the number of specialist wizards you can find, but that'll get easier the more you have due to the higher DC of your Dominate.

[Amra]

1181866410[/unixtime]]Bring in a Mirror of Opposition!

Aw, man, I used to love those things! Even as a player I thought they were pretty cool, back in the day. The DM I started out with used to put them in about every other level so I spent a lot of time on the "how would I defeat myself" question, but I haven't put one into a campaign since 2nd Edition. I don't think people expect them quite as much these days; my lot certainly won't as I've been keeping the big chair warm for 4 years straight and I've never used one...

I may just do that.

[Amra]

1181835725[/unixtime]]

As for Amra's question:

From memory, the best I can think of is the is the Beholder Mage1/Ur-Priest1/MyTh10/True Necro8

If it wasn't broken for the crazy CL on the whole of the Wizard and Cleric Spell Lists, it would be for the ability to throw ten spells per level.

Arcane Caster Level: 34
Divine Caster Level: 51
* 35/52 for necromancy spells

Good grief, how on Oerth do you manage to get the CL's up that high?! Not that using Difference Engine techniques is legal in this situation, due to the Official FAQ ruling it out, but I'd still love to know...

[shirak]

1181868825[/unixtime]]

1181835725[/unixtime]]

As for Amra's question:

From memory, the best I can think of is the is the Beholder Mage1/Ur-Priest1/MyTh10/True Necro8

If it wasn't broken for the crazy CL on the whole of the Wizard and Cleric Spell Lists, it would be for the ability to throw ten spells per level.

Arcane Caster Level: 34
Divine Caster Level: 51
* 35/52 for necromancy spells

Good grief, how on Oerth do you manage to get the CL's up that high?! Not that using Difference Engine techniques is legal in this situation, due to the Official FAQ ruling it out, but I'd still love to know...

You can get it higher by replacing True necromancer with Sor1/Bard1/Assassin1/Warmage1/WuJen1/SublimeChord1

Sublime Chord resets your CL for Arcane Spells (of all classes) to 24. Which sets your Divine Spell Caster Level to 95. This the same as Frank's Word build except without the Thought Bottle and the Savage Species Rituals of Vitality. Still pretty good though.

[Amra]

I'm still baffled. I don't see how it's that high! The Ur-priest description says: "To determine the caster level of an ur-priest, add the character's ur-priest levels to one-half of his levels in other spellcasting classes."

The caster level of the ur-priest would therefore be 1+1/2*(1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1), or 5, plus the 10 levels from MyTh for a total of 15. Unless there's some freaky property of Beholder Mage that I'm not aware of, which is entirely possible as I'm not familiar with it.

"Caster level" != "levels in a spellcasting class", so I can't see why the numbers are so high.

On a related note, I've had an e-mail this morning asking me whether karma beads are free from a standard string... Does anyone know of an *official* source that clarifies this? If not, the world may indeed be broken before we begin

[Endovior]

It's not quite as good as you think.

A cleric whose alignment matches the candle's operates as if two levels higher for purposes of determining spells per day if he burns the candle during or just prior to his spell preparation time. He can even cast spells normally unavailable to him, as if he were of that higher level, but only so long as the candle continues to burn. Except in special cases (see below), a candle burns for 4 hours.

Note that if you put the candle out, you don't get better spells. Everything else that's broken about it remains broken, though.

[MrWaeseL]

1181827067[/unixtime]]Yeah, it's called the official FAQ.

Oh duh, I read that as "Skip's coked-up ranting ON the out-and-out wrongness of many FAQ rulings", which seemed hilarious to me.

I know what the FAQ is. Really

[Amra]

1181903275[/unixtime]]It's not quite as good as you think.

Note that if you put the candle out, you don't get better spells. Everything else that's broken about it remains broken, though.

I know, that's why I said: "Then he just needs to burn the candles for one round per spell cast after preparation time to be able to cast the spells he has prepared. Each candle will last 4 hours, or 2400 rounds, so if you want to cast twenty spells per day like this (plus burning time of one round before prep), each candle will last for 114 days."

Burn the candle(s) for a round then put it out, prepare spells as a higher-level caster. You'll have a load of spells prepared that you can't access because the candle isn't burning. Light the candle(s) again for one round per spell you want to cast that is *normally unavailable to you*.

Of course, lighting a candle is probably a standard action so you'd actually lose more time than I described when employing multiple candles, unless you used a spell (or lackeys) to light them for you...

[Amra]

It gets better... I've just had to tell someone that they can't take the Holy Ki Strike feat because a prerequisite for the feat - ki strike (holy) doesn't exist in the RAW. Priceless!

[User3]

Karma beads are 20,000gp. Source: Dungeon Masters Guide.

[shirak]

1181896488[/unixtime]]I'm still baffled. I don't see how it's that high! The Ur-priest description says: "To determine the caster level of an ur-priest, add the character's ur-priest levels to one-half of his levels in other spellcasting classes."

The caster level of the ur-priest would therefore be 1+1/2*(1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1), or 5, plus the 10 levels from MyTh for a total of 15. Unless there's some freaky property of Beholder Mage that I'm not aware of, which is entirely possible as I'm not familiar with it.

The basis of Frank's Word build (which is what my build dreams of becoming when it grows up) is that certain classes reset your CL. For example, Ur-Priest has a CL equal to your Ur-Priest levels plus one-half the CL of each and every spellcasting class you have levels in. Where this get's broken is the Sublime Chord PrC. It resets all your arcane CLs to be equal to your CL in one class plus your Sublime Chord levels. So by adding a buttload of arcane spellcasting classes you can get crazy high Ur-Priest CL.

1181896488[/unixtime]]"Caster level" != "levels in a spellcasting class", so I can't see why the numbers are so high.

Um, what? CL = Levels in spellcasting class + bonuses to CL (like Karma Beads). Only special cases like Sublime Chord and Ur-Priest are different.

[Amra]

1181917968[/unixtime]]

The basis of Frank's Word build (which is what my build dreams of becoming when it grows up) is that certain classes reset your CL. For example, Ur-Priest has a CL equal to your Ur-Priest levels plus one-half the CL of each and every spellcasting class you have levels in.

I'm sorry?!

From the class description: "To determine the caster level of an ur-priest, add the character's ur-priest levels to one-half of his levels in other spellcasting classes. (Any levels gained in the cleric class by an ex-cleric don't count.)"

Add the character's ur-priest levels to his "one other class" levels. Not "add his ur-priest levels to his caster level in another class"! Have they nerfed this since the original, like True Necromancer?

Where this get's broken is the Sublime Chord PrC. It resets all your arcane CLs to be equal to your CL in one class plus your Sublime Chord levels.

Um... but that's not what it says. I'm confused

The Sublime Chord description doesn't mention your Caster Level in another class: it specifically says "A sublime chord's caster level for both her sublime chord spells and the spells she gains from other arcane spellcasting classes is determined by adding her sublime chord level to her level in another arcane spellcasting class."

It doesn't say "caster level in another arcane spellcasting class", it says "level in another arcane spellcasting class".

1181917968[/unixtime]]

1181896488[/unixtime]]"Caster level" != "levels in a spellcasting class", so I can't see why the numbers are so high.

Um, what? CL = Levels in spellcasting class + bonuses to CL (like Karma Beads). Only special cases like Sublime Chord and Ur-Priest are different.

Yes, that's right. I said "levels in a spellcasting class" are not equal to "caster level", as you just said. The class descriptions for Ur-Priest and Sublime Chord don't refer to "caster level in another spellcasting class" (which as you say is equal to class level + bonuses), they refer to "levels in a spellcasting class", which means "class level".

I'm convinced I'm missing something!

[Amra]

1181915815[/unixtime]]Karma beads are 20,000gp. Source: Dungeon Masters Guide.

The reason they were asking was down to this paragraph in the description:

"Reduce the price of a strand of prayer beads that is missing one or more beads by the following amounts: bead of blessing -600 gp, bead of healing -9,000 gp, bead of karma -20,000 gp, bead of smiting -16,800 gp, bead of summons -20,000 gp, bead of wind walking -46,800 gp."

The listed price of a standard strand - which has a bead of healing, a bead of karma, and a bead of smiting - is 25,800gp. Take away the bead of smiting and the bead of healing, and lo! Free karma beads! Naturally I wouldn't allow such specious reasoning to stand for a moment under normal circumstances...