Anti-Transhumanism in Roleplaying Games

[User3]

But there is a hard limit to how many spirits you can control, and there's no limit to how many robots you can command. Also, if oyu spend all your Essence as a cyborg, it's not even important to you, while a Magician who spends Essence gets kicked right in the nuts.

If you want to be a mage in Shadowrun, no amount of mission solving or conviction can make you one if you didn't have the right stuff at birth.

To put icing on the ass-shaped cake, if the Magician decided he wanted to flush his gift down the toilet and go the cyborg route, he can. Nothing's stopping him. In fact, in 4th Ed (the only edition I'm familiar with, mind) he can become hardcore enough so that he has just as good magic as anyone else AND be the best cyborg he can be.

I know Darkjogger is supposed to include a lot of elements of fantasy, but I thought that one of the biggest reasons why it's a dystopia is because of the great divide between the haves and have-nots and the only way for some people to get ahead is to darkjog. I'm not actually sure that you want to reinforce this depressing message during character creation by announcing that only certain people get to fulfill their dreams of becoming a mage or whatever.

But the average Solar Exalted is still going to be able to kick their ass in fifteen different ways without breaking a sweat, and no amount of hard work or heroic adventure is going to change the gigantic head start such a character gets on said average human.

Not only that, a mortal CAN'T save the world. No matter how much they wish it so, no matter how much they hope in their hearts, they just can't.

It's not like 3rd Edition D&D, where certain characters get a gigantic head start on the other people but it's not impossible to catch up. A person who rolled 4 10s, an 8, and a 14 at chargen can theoretically eventually adventure enough (or cheat) so that he can be a real hero. There's no ceiling on advancement such that our bogus hero competing against someone who rolled all 18s can eventually be the better protagonist. He may have to do it as a level 12 fighter versus a level 7 fighter--but it's still there. If the level 7 fighter becomes level 12 and reclaims his superiority, that's the bogus hero's fault for not adventuring and believing in himself enough.

But Exalted isn't like that. There's an upper limit on stats and he can't learn any charms. It's not like where a level 10 monk who wants to be the greatest wizard in the world can just start getting wizard levels like that--if you can't get charms then you'll always be inferior to an Exalted Hero.

And I don't like the message that sends.

One Piece- One Piece has a setting where people gain their vast superpowers solely by luck (eating Devil Fruit). On the other hand, if you're passionate enough you can become hardcore without eating Devil Fruit. Even if you do eat Devil Fruit and believe in yourself and all that jazz, people who eat fruit aren't in the long run superior to those that don't.

Weirdly enough, if you play D&D by point buy--how I hate die rolling--this is what ends up happening in the long run.

JoJo's Bizarre Adventure- Your superpowers are solely a manifestation of your psyche (especially in the 4th and 5th books). There's almost no luck involved in deciding just how much of a hero or a villain you can be (short of the natural circumstances determining your personality, believes, education, etc.); however, the twisted irony is that you do actually have a limit to how strong you can be. The more violent your personality is the stronger you get. You are your own worst enemy, not your outside fate.

Naruto- Some ninja are flat-out superior to other ninja at birth, because they have totally insane things like the Sharingan. While it is possible through hard work and belief in yourself to become more powerful than MOST people who are just lucky from birth, unlike One Piece the greatest heroes and villains have a combination of both conviction and luck that people who only have one or the other can't possibly meet.

DC/Marvel Comics- People with the right genes flat-out make the better superheroes. No one sings the exploits of The Question but everyone remembers that time Superman sliced the moon in half with his heat vision.

However, if you don't have the right genes, there's always superscience. Only certain people get it, though. This is how Iron Man can compete with Thor.

Basically there's two avenues through herodom. They don't really mix; one and only one of the paths will really screw you and it's your goal to find out which one. There are some oddballs like Dr. Doom out there but that's the basic setup.

Exalted- Your potential is decided before you're even born. Fate decides who will Exalt and who will not, despite peoples' best precautions. Furthermore, people don't exalt at the same power level--and thus potential for herodom. If you're a mortal who wants to save the world from it's wretched state, you just might as well go home and find some way to kill yourself. Better luck next time.

There's probably some more schemes out there. The question is, which one do you guys prefer for D&D and other games in general?

[Neeek]

1152436260[/unixtime]]
DC/Marvel Comics- People with the right genes flat-out make the better superheroes. No one sings the exploits of The Question but everyone remembers that time Superman sliced the moon in half with his heat vision.

However, if you don't have the right genes, there's always superscience. Only certain people get it, though. This is how Iron Man can compete with Thor.

That's not even slightly true. The most powerful heroes in both the DC Universe (The Spectre) and the Marvel Universe (Silver Surfer) started life as normal people. Heck, the Spectre changes from one person to another from time to time.

[Nidhogg]

1152436260[/unixtime]]I don't like the message that sends.

No offence, but whoop-dee-shit.

Roleplaying games are generaly based around the premis that the player characters are better than the masses, and that they are trying to surpass people whom are, in turn, better than them. The masses are such because they are destined never to rise above thier station, otherwise every third farmer would be a retired fourth level Fighter. The only 'transhumanistic' fantasy world I can think of is the Warhammer world, and the only way to advance beyond mortality in that setting is to worship big evil things that eat your soul if you fail to kill enough innocent people before you die. There is no fantasy setting that supports any form of Christian morality, because it makes for a very boring game. If everyone had an equal opportunity, then nothing would ever get done, because everyone would be too busy beating eachother to death with rocks to get to the next level, instead of, you know, building a society.

In a fantasy setting, especialy one in which a level mechanic exists, it is important for people to be beneath the notice of the big nasties, because otherwise there would be nobody to build thier cities.

[PhoneLobster]

1) I don't like the message Nidhogg sends.

2) His name disturbs me, its reminiscent of Gonads and Pigs , two things that should never meet.

3) Feudal caste systems are VERY representative of "Christian Morality". Just ask the bible, jesus, the pope and opus dei.

Yeah.

[Nidhogg]

1152525215[/unixtime]]1) I don't like the message Nidhogg sends.

My job here is done.

2) His name disturbs me, its reminiscent of Gonads and Pigs , two things that should never meet.

I take it you haven't brushed up on your Norse mythology lately?

3) Feudal caste systems are VERY representative of "Christian Morality". Just ask the bible, jesus, the pope and opus dei.

A Feudal caste system has little to do with Christian morality, and much to do with Christian dogma and hierarchy.

[fbmf]

[The Great Fence Builder Speaks]
No personal attacks, please.
[/TGFBS]

[dbb]

1152523363[/unixtime]]
The masses are such because they are destined never to rise above thier station, otherwise every third farmer would be a retired fourth level Fighter.

This is where I think you go astray. Equality of opportunity is not the same thing as equality of outcome. I see no reason why you couldn't have a setting where everyone could be a "hero" (in the sense of having levels, gaining Exaltation, learning wizardry, or whatever), but very few actually did (whether because of lack of ambition, lack of courage, ignorance, etc., etc.)

It's like starting a business. Just about anyone who isn't homeless (and for that matter, some people who are homeless) can start some sort of business, even if it's an extremely small one that requires a lot of work by them and not by flunkies. Most people choose to work for someone else's business instead.

There is no fantasy setting that supports any form of Christian morality, because it makes for a very boring game.

You've never played Pendragon? Or Ars Magica? Both feature settings in which not just Christian morality but actual Christianity are part of the setting. I wouldn't call either boring.

(Of course, in Ars Magica, the players generally aren't the Christians, but there's nothing to say they can't be.)

In a fantasy setting, especialy one in which a level mechanic exists, it is important for people to be beneath the notice of the big nasties, because otherwise there would be nobody to build thier cities.

Because someone is beneath Smaug's notice now doesn't mean that they must always and forever be beneath Smaug's notice. There's no reason the "one man can be the equal of an army" mechanics and the "any man on the street can grow to be the equal of an army" mechanics can't comfortably coexist in the same setting.

--d.

[Nidhogg]

1152552202[/unixtime]]This is where I think you go astray. Equality of opportunity is not the same thing as equality of outcome. I see no reason why you couldn't have a setting where everyone could be a "hero" (in the sense of having levels, gaining Exaltation, learning wizardry, or whatever), but very few actually did (whether because of lack of ambition, lack of courage, ignorance, etc., etc.)

My point that in a world where a linear level-based system actaully exists, nobody would ever do anything besides hunt other people for experiance, because the kind of society that breeds lethargy and stagnates ambition would never get a chance to exist. Some kind of destiny must exist in order for society to advance to the point where a Feudal system is possible. If not, then some kind of higher power (or just some realy big thing) has to exist to smack down people whom try to hard.

You've never played Pendragon?

Urgh, I've been avoiding this one on purpose. I never liked Aurthurian legend, and I doubt I would like a game based on them.

Or Ars Magica? Both feature settings in which not just Christian morality but actual Christianity are part of the setting. I wouldn't call either boring.

Double urgh. 'Troupe system' for the loose.

[dbb]

But real people really do ignore genuine opportunities to improve on their current lot, all the time. They refuse to leave their job for a better-paying one or one that carries a promotion. They don't divorce their spouse for one younger and better-looking. They don't commit crimes they certainly wouldn't be caught for.

Of course, each of these choices, for all that they "improve one's current lot", have their down sides, such that it could be (and often is) a rational decision not to make them. Same with adventuring for levels. "Adventuring" involves the strong likelihood of death, the possibility of not getting brought back from death, the virtual certainty of agonizingly painful injuries, the decent chance of being turned into a mindless zombified slave (or other unpleasant fate-worse-than-death), and the definite knowledge that you'll at various times be cold, uncomfortable, exhausted, and terrified out of your wits. In exchange for which you get ... power, sure, wealth, sure, but you also get to become even more of a target, and face even more dangerous situations that make death more likely. Hunting means you are also hunted.

I don't want to oversell the idea too much, because I think plenty of people would make the choice to go adventuring anyway, but I also think it can be a rational and common decision not to go adventuring, especially if you live in a relatively safe area where there are a limited number of threats that would make one think one needs to gain power against them. Adventuring would be a more common choice in war-torn or frontier areas where you're more likely to wind up with nothing to lose.

--d.

[Nidhogg]

1152634156[/unixtime]]But real people really do ignore genuine opportunities to improve on their current lot, all the time. They refuse to leave their job for a better-paying one or one that carries a promotion. They don't divorce their spouse for one younger and better-looking. They don't commit crimes they certainly wouldn't be caught for.

Yes, we do, give up opportunities, and we do it all the time. The important distinction, is that in our world linear advancement through a level system where advancemnt is determined almost souly by killing people doesn't exist.

Picture this:

The world is young, and kingdoms have not yet sprung in to existance. Heck, people haven't even figured out that you survive better by banding together, and so the world consists of fairly small family groups of humanoid races wandering the lands, killing things for food. Now, the people who hunt the most frequently come back stronger, and better hunters, and since there realy is no reason to stay home at all, everyone decides that they may as well go hunting too, because they realise that it will make them better at everything (including basket weaving, for some odd reason). Now, eventualy, everyone stops getting experiance from CR 1-3 animals, but the entire family is at moderate levels. Evtualy, one family unit will meet another, and such meetings will probably end with a fight over territory. If it happens enough, people will clue in that killing people makes you better too, and it's only a matter of time until somebody murders thier entire family in thier sleep, gains a level, and goes on hunt for other people (because killing animals no longer makes them stronger). Eventualy, families will be harder and harder to find by this fellow, because he's killed so many, and because he's not the only one who does what he does. Society never developes, because any permanent settlement becomes a target for the Chaotic Evil mass-murderers whom dot the planet, and nomadic cultures die out, because they become hunted for sport (and level). The world becomes a wasteland (because sorcerers get sick of having to hunt, so they blast away forests with area effect spells), and now what little remains of the humanoid races are hunting eachother down, because they can, and because they know where to find them (near the water). Eventualy, there is only one person left, most likely a sorcerer, and he becomes a walking ball of death, killing everything alive in the world, using divination magic to aid his hunting.

The world dies young, and the sorcerer goes on to become a god. He then goes hunting the planes.

[Crissa]

For every Captain Morgan, there were thousands of buccaneers who perished. While you may argue it was Morgan's fate - he had a fortunate birth and an education - there's an obvious reason for many of them to merely stay on the islands and hunt pigs for jerky and drink rum instead of chance the much greater chance of death for slightly greater rewards.

-Crissa

[Josh_Kablack]

Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but as the guy with his name in the book, I really thought that at least for Solars, Exaltation can happen to anybody "Imprisoned and denied reincarnation for centuries, the power of the Solar Exalted relentlessly seeks out talented and ambitious individuals and starts them on a meteroic path to prominence and supernatural might." (page 25, E-Rev)

Of course, I'm pretty confused by this, as Lago doesn't seem to mean the same thing by the term "Transhumanism" that Grabowski does when he uses it, which makes ascertaining that game's design intent regarding "Transhumanism" much more difficult than it should be.

[User3]

Nidhogg also seemed to leave something out. A great impetus for building kingdoms is the threat of someone coming over one day while you are sleeping, killing you and your family, and taking your stuff. Eventually, if people are going around and killing people and their families while they are sleeping and taking their stuff - and this happens in fantasy worlds all the time - people who have both families and stuff get the idea that they should band together to avoid being killed and having their stuff taken.

They agree, for instance, to kill and take the stuff only of people who are NOT members of those two families. Then one day, they come up against a foe who they don't think they can easily kill and take the stuff of. They offer to possibly extend their pact to that group, and the alliance expands.

When it gets big enough, it's actually a kingdom. And this is how kingdoms form.

[dbb]

Josh, you are a gentleman and a scholar, and I'll say straight out that in making this argument I mean no offense to Exalted, either in setting or game mechanical terms (as I actually like the setting very much, and the mechanics ... I can live with. ).

However! You are quite right that Exaltation can happen to anyone (though not to everyone, unless E-Rev has abandoned the notion of limited quantities of Exalted essences), but I think the key objection is that it nonetheless happens out of the control of the person being Exalted. That is to say, it still happens at the whim of the power, rather than via hard work or effort on the part of the person; and while being ambitious helps, there is ultimately no positive mechanism that can bring one to the level of ass-kicker.

At an actual game level, this objection is not meaningful. You either play an Exalted of whatever variety or you don't, and if you don't, you presumably don't because you don't want to (or possibly because the DM is a sadist). At the setting-wide level, I think there is some significance to it because of what it implies about the way the world works -- and yes, that's sort of a "well, duh" statement, because that's the sort of world Exalted is set in, and if your setting doesn't reflect the values of your setting, then there's something really weird going on.

--d.

[TarlSS]

If lack of transhumanism bothers you, there are a few games that can help

GURPS
D20 Modern
Star Wars (D6 and D20)

All of these games incorporate methods of advancement for your 'everyday' things like working a job, doing surgery, or whatever. In D20 Modern your average successful surgeon is probably level 10-15 or so, like wise for Star Wars.

The advantage that PCs get in these games is because they benefit from being distanced from reality. Real people have to deal with pain, boredom, loss and discomfort which prevents them from sticking it out in Medschool, or on a freighter in a box. Due to the nature of a game, a night out on the town is about as fun as spending hours
PCs can just say "Ow, that hurts. Let's fast forward 4 years. Look, I'm done medschool" If everyone could do that, then we'd all be Harvard degree wielding millionaires who earned our fortunes by eating only peanut butter and living in small holes.

[RandomCasualty]

1152650366[/unixtime]]
The world is young, and kingdoms have not yet sprung in to existance. Heck, people haven't even figured out that you survive better by banding together, and so the world consists of fairly small family groups of humanoid races wandering the lands, killing things for food. Now, the people who hunt the most frequently come back stronger, and better hunters, and since there realy is no reason to stay home at all, everyone decides that they may as well go hunting too, because they realise that it will make them better at everything (including basket weaving, for some odd reason). Now, eventualy, everyone stops getting experiance from CR 1-3 animals, but the entire family is at moderate levels. Evtualy, one family unit will meet another, and such meetings will probably end with a fight over territory. If it happens enough, people will clue in that killing people makes you better too, and it's only a matter of time until somebody murders thier entire family in thier sleep, gains a level, and goes on hunt for other people (because killing animals no longer makes them stronger). Eventualy, families will be harder and harder to find by this fellow, because he's killed so many, and because he's not the only one who does what he does. Society never developes, because any permanent settlement becomes a target for the Chaotic Evil mass-murderers whom dot the planet, and nomadic cultures die out, because they become hunted for sport (and level). The world becomes a wasteland (because sorcerers get sick of having to hunt, so they blast away forests with area effect spells), and now what little remains of the humanoid races are hunting eachother down, because they can, and because they know where to find them (near the water). Eventualy, there is only one person left, most likely a sorcerer, and he becomes a walking ball of death, killing everything alive in the world, using divination magic to aid his hunting.

The world dies young, and the sorcerer goes on to become a god. He then goes hunting the planes.

Going solo is not the best way for advancement and mass murdering psychopaths tend not to have many friends. If you just go killing people randomly, why would anyone trust you?

And sooner or later you're going to die at higher levels, because fighting high level challenges involves a lot of luck. And when this mass murdering psychopath dies, who is going to raise him?

Second, there's really no reason to go killing peasants once you reach a certain level because they no longer give you any XP. By destroying civilization you're preventing anyone else from getting powerful enough to challenge you, but you're also halting your own growth. So you'll be sitting at level 7 or 8 forever.

The powerful guys are going to be the ones who realize that hunting monsters is where the XP is at. In addition, protecting civilization is worthwhile since it lets you trade in treasure you find for better items or components to make your own magic items.

[Nidhogg]

1153248821[/unixtime]]
Going solo is not the best way for advancement and mass murdering psychopaths tend not to have many friends. If you just go killing people randomly, why would anyone trust you?

The problem is that grouping together makes you a much larger target for mass-murdering psychopaths, because every time you double your numbers, your CR raises by two. Because of the way the d20 system works, you can easily dispatch hordes of low-CR creatures, so you are actually much better off on your own. Oh, and every person you hang out with is also a potential mass-murdering psychopath.

And sooner or later you're going to die at higher levels, because fighting high level challenges involves a lot of luck. And when this mass murdering psychopath dies, who is going to raise him?

He doesn't get raised. People probably don't even know such spells exist because Clerics would have such low survivability in a world where society as we know it doesn't exist. The world would kind of be like The Highlander if everyone was like the immortals, minus the immortality. Unlike in the movie, the 'immortals' have no pre-existing society to piggyback on- there is only the knowlage that killing people gives you the uber-powers you need to kill more people, which you have to do, because otherwise they will kill you.

Second, there's really no reason to go killing peasants once you reach a certain level because they no longer give you any XP. By destroying civilization you're preventing anyone else from getting powerful enough to challenge you, but you're also halting your own growth. So you'll be sitting at level 7 or 8 forever.

True, but there are hundreds of other people who are also mass-murdering psychopaths running around killing family-tribes. Besides, you never know who'll give XP and who won't untill after you butcher them. After a while, the psychopaths start hunting eachother, until everyone is so spread out that the only ones who can hunt are Sorcerers casting Divination spells to find every living thing so they can kill them. Eventually, there would be nothing left to hunt, and the soul survivor turn his attention to gutting the Outer Planes.

The powerful guys are going to be the ones who realize that hunting monsters is where the XP is at. In addition, protecting civilization is worthwhile since it lets you trade in treasure you find for better items or components to make your own magic items.

What treasures? There are no coins, and there are probably no magic items either. There are heavy sticks, and sharp rocks, and not much else, because there is no society and there never was any society. The world never even makes it to the Iron Age, because everyone is far to busy killing everyone to build anything, and staying in one place for too long gets you killed.

[RandomCasualty]

1153267261[/unixtime]]
The problem is that grouping together makes you a much larger target for mass-murdering psychopaths, because every time you double your numbers, your CR raises by two.

That's not true actually. The EL rises by two, but the EL has nothing to do with calculating XP. XP is purely based on CR of each individual monster killed.

True, but there are hundreds of other people who are also mass-murdering psychopaths running around killing family-tribes. Besides, you never know who'll give XP and who won't untill after you butcher them. After a while, the psychopaths start hunting eachother, until everyone is so spread out that the only ones who can hunt are Sorcerers casting Divination spells to find every living thing so they can kill them. Eventually, there would be nothing left to hunt, and the soul survivor turn his attention to gutting the Outer Planes.

Only you won't be able to get expensive material components, foci, or useful magical items since you have no infrastructure with which to buy the components. You also can't trade in any magic items you find for more wealth. So basically you're taking on the outer planes with a bunch of gear you can't really use well.

What treasures? There are no coins, and there are probably no magic items either. There are heavy sticks, and sharp rocks, and not much else, because there is no society and there never was any society. The world never even makes it to the Iron Age, because everyone is far to busy killing everyone to build anything, and staying in one place for too long gets you killed.

Well who says that all magic items come from humans? Dragons could still have magic items piled away, as will outsiders and anything else extraplanar.

Well, in such a setting, the divine casters dominate. Both of whom have more complex agendas than simple slaughter.

Clerics are dedicated to a god and try to get followers for that god. This builds temples and otherwise works to create civilization, since cities mean more followers.

Wizards don't exist yet, since there's no ink or book construction and thus they have no way of researching magic. Fighters have crap for arms and armor.

Basically you're looking at rogues, clerics, druids and sorcerers as your main players in the world. Well, I'll easily take clerics as the victor there, since they have an innate unity about them that the lone mass murdering sorcerer psychopath doesn't have.

The thing with D&D is that there's always stuff to kill. This is a world with dire wolves, giant insects, ogres and trolls walking around. Turning on your own kind is just plain stupid. You've got way more to gain raiding the githyanki than you do from killing a bunch of dirt farmers.

[Prak]

I'm not sure(haven't read the whole thread) but I believe you people have forgotten Demon from white wolf, sure, there core book basically says 'You're a demon or you aren't'. Despite this, there may be a way for humans to become demons, or even angels as they're about the same thing, not sure on that though...

anyway, other than that, you've got the usual fallen angel thing, except there's a twist. a demon must possess someone in order to exist in our world, and while this kinda screws the vessal, as they're usually pretty weak spirits, the main character, the demon, actually has some vague choice in his lot in life. Some demons take the monstrous role that humanity has assigned them, some don't. Some demons become auto-mechanics, hookers/pimps, or eve day-care attendants. In addition, there are factions, the faustians, who are concerned with exalting all of humanity; the cryptics, who are concerned with figuring out where lucifer is; the luciferians, who are concerned with finding lucifer and following him into one last battle with heaven; the raveners who take their monstrous role; and the reconcilers, who are concerned with basically saying 'Hey god, about that whole rebellion thing? yeah, sorry, you are truly wise and wonderful and we are dirt, in our regret, we've been good! yeah last week I saved a country from being nuked!'.

Not only that, but in demon the rebellion of angels was actually started to exalt and save humanity....

[Judging__Eagle]

Random Casualty, I think that Nidhogg is reffering to Earth, rather than some stock D&D world, like Oerth, Eberron, Toril etc.

And Nidhogg, good name choice, the fact that someone else here couldn't identify the dragon that gnaws on the roots of Yggdrassil is funny, but not everyone is going to read everything one referrences.

Heck, myself, I've only been limited in my gaming choices to:

BESM

Which has xp handed out on a per session basis.

Players then place these points into a variet of areas, magic, powerful inherent abilities or powerful items. Powerful iems usually are usually more powerful than inherent abilities. That is you get more power for the points you invest into an item than from an inherent ability.

However, you can't take your battlemech to the golf course, while you can always be a magical school girl who fights giant monsters)

D&D 2-3.5

Has been discussed here already. The idea that Nidhogg brings up is a valid one, but it only really exists if there aren't dire wolves, ogres, goblins, kobolds, orcs and others competing with your tribe and probably are just as hardcore as you can be.

When it comes down to, trading offspring with an other human tribe in order to foster good relations, instead of kill each other, is a good idea when you both know that a den of kobolds lives somewhere nearby, a tribe of orcs lives in the hills and a bunch of giant animals live in the woods.

So, Nidhoggs arguments are valid, but only if one assumes that humans and normal animals are the only things around.

It should also be noted that the setting now really encourages the handing out of xp to PCs if they beat social challenges, with the XP granted as if they beat an encounter with a CR equal

A small amount of Shadowrun, so I'm not really sure how the system works myself, but I'll take others words for it.

Oh, opinions on the Rifts games?

Where does that fall on this spectrum?

I own a lot of the supplement books (mostly for the fluff, the mechanics I really don't care about and since I don't own the main rule book, I can't make too much out from the numbers written as part of a characters stats), but the game seems to have all sorts of odd things in it.

I notice a lot of power disparity, some people are just born powerful, some are turned powerful, others aquire power through training, while others aquire power through equipment.

Most of the aquireing of power through 'equipment' (cybernetics mostly) can go awry and have the user lose their sanity/humanity (non-mechanically, from what I've read) or simply die after aquireing supreme awesomeness (you're so awesome, that you'll die b/c your body can't contain your awesomeness; aka Juicers).

Of course, some people are just born into awesom races, like being a dragon, or a demon, or whatever. While humans and other low-powered, non-Mega-Damage characters can fight and kill some actual-Mega-Damage creatures (like gargoyles, smaller demons, stuff like that). They can only do so using vastly advanced combat armours, weaponry and training; while the standard Gargoyle is five kinds of awesome just by being born.

Of course, truly awesome monsters like dragons are almost impossible to kill with not only conventional weaponry, but also hard to kill with Mega-Damage weaponry.

Aside on the implicaiton of Mega-Damage and sense of scale: The way Mega Damage works compared to 'Standard Damage' is that one MD equals.... 100 SD? or 1000 SD. So, while a hunting rifle can do 3d6 SD and could probably kill a 10 SD hit point deer with a lucky or good shot, the hand laser than can do 1 MD will probably obliterate it if the laser just passes by the deer.

That's how big of a difference an MD weapon has over an SD weapon, it takes anti-armour weaponry to even scratch a dragon, while no amount of regular guns will even faze it.


So, you need an MD weapon to even harm a Dragon. However that dragon can do the following:

1. 
   
2. fly away
   
3. sit still
   
4. regenerate all of their HP back to full in under 15 minutes
   
5. come back
   
6. repeat 1 through 4 until it isn't getting hit any more
   
7. eat your face off
   

So, the only method that can actually hurt and kill really powerful creatures was devised by Triax (this massive company from before the cataclysm that ended up re-creating germany from the ground up and is a key player in the New German Republic)...

Live and radioactive uranium rounds.

Yes, not just depleted uranium, active uranium. Now, of course only robot battalions are issued these, and they only use them for dragon or demon slaying and they track and remove as many of the rounds from the battlefield as they can, or... issue them to normal troops as 'specially coated' rounds on a very limited basis.

Now, it works wonders since the damage is massive and can't be regenerated, so a dragon hit with LU rounds will keep getting closer to dying; but that's a pretty scary prospect:

"the only way you can fight the really big, baddies is to poison yourself as well as the land you live in."


Of course rifts has some very human-centric societies (NGR in europe and the Coalition States in eastern to midwest America, as well as various nations in south america and parts of japan and russia.

Most of the rest of the world in rifts is completely overrun by monsters. Large areas of Japan, Russia, America North and South although South America really only has the mountains and the far south as it's wild lands and mainland Europe are swarming with nomadic D-Bees (dimensional beings, people from other worlds that ended up on earth via a rift), monsters, demons or both lesser and greater category, the tendrils of Vampire Intelligences (all vampires are actually the pawns of one or an other Vampire Intelligence, and Mexico is a vampire-run nation) or other assorted nasties.

Now, China is... well, China 'lost' it's war on outside forces and is parcelled up and run by roughly a dozen demon kings/lords. With the exception of one or two nations (and even in one, it's the demon lord that is creating a 'peoples' republic by always running around in incorporal form to spy on his people or turn into a human form that can convice and rally the people to follow their 'great leader', the humans have lost the war in China.

I'm not really sure about Africa, since I haven't read any of the books for it, but I know that there are some good gods there (gods of light related deities, like Horus-Ra).


***Begin England Spoilers****

England is funny, since Merlin (an extra-planar intelligence, apparently) is pulling lots of strings in order for his Artur to be king of all of England. Going so far as to have Guivevere and the Lady od the Lake be some of the 'Merlin' extra-planar intelligences physical manifestations on earth. As well as a whole army of supposedly Artur approved knights that patrol the lands (these are really just animated suits of armour on horses).

That's of course not player knowledge at all.

***End England Spoilers****


Of course, that's just earth, there's tons of other both planets and galaxies that can be explored.

[Lago_AM3P]

I read this thread recently after responding to the Mixing D&D with Exalted page.

And here's probably one of my biggest objections to the setting.

However! You are quite right that Exaltation can happen to anyone (though not to everyone, unless E-Rev has abandoned the notion of limited quantities of Exalted essences), but I think the key objection is that it nonetheless happens out of the control of the person being Exalted. That is to say, it still happens at the whim of the power, rather than via hard work or effort on the part of the person; and while being ambitious helps, there is ultimately no positive mechanism that can bring one to the level of ass-kicker.

We all know that Exalted is an extremely dangerous setting to live in. It's even more dangerous--suicidal even--to actively challenge the evils of both society and nature.

While an ambitious mortal mayor can organize a social program so that widows don't starve to death in the streets, there's literally nothing he can do if some Dragonblood Exalts come by and demand that 1/10th of the city be killed because someone made a grievous slur against the Immaculate Order. Because even if the mayor organized all of the peasants into revolt, the five Dragonbloods making this unfair demand could probably hand the entire village their ass without even caring.

That's okay, though. This is the entire premise of heroics based on superhuman abilities. Even though the people they're defending can't do it, it's okay, because Superman or Batman is around the corner and will lay a beatdown in the name of justice.

Notice that in Superman's case he was granted his ability out of his control. In Batman's case he was granted his ability due to determination and hard work. They both exist in the same setting and the effect they have on the story is equal.

But Exalted doesn't HAVE any Batmans in the story. Batman can augment his crimefighting with gadgets and investigation and contacts. A mortal in Exalted can't do that. Heck, the mortal can't even use most of the artifacts in the book because they require a comittment of essence that the mortal just does not have.

Even worse, Solar, Lunar, and Sidereal Exaltation are not random. They are deliberatively designed. If you Exalt into a Solar but then get a skillset of Diplomacy (when you really wanted to be a gunslinger), that's too bad because Sol Invictus decided that he wants a diplomancer more. That's not heroics, that's being the pawn of some elder god.

[User3]

To be fair to LotR, the Hobbits represent just how important and powerful the little people are.

If you overlook the fact that Bilbo and Frodo were born into the wealthy aristocracy of the Hobbits, that is.

[Judging__Eagle]

1183443759[/unixtime]]To be fair to LotR, the Hobbits represent just how important and powerful the little people are.

If you overlook the fact that Bilbo and Frodo were born into the wealthy aristocracy of the Hobbits, that is.

It should be noted that the Baggins descended from the Old Took, an adventurer Hobbit, who used his adventuring-earned wealth to establish a legacy.

Really, Frodo and Bilbo are simply following in their adventuring ancestor's footsteps.

[shirak]

Lago, Celestial Exaltations don't work like that. Sidereal Exalted are literally born to Exalt, sure, but for Lunars and Solars it's more of the Exaltation finding a "dramatic moment" in which a likely mortal is behaving according to the Exaltation's parameters (set by Sol Invictus or Luna ages ago) and then gets permission (which canonically is a foregone conclusion, Incarna don't interfere with their Exaltations) and then the mortal Exalts.

So in order to Exalt as a Lunar or Solar you need to survive a catastrophe or be in the middle of serious heroing and then you either Exalt or don't get a "Better Luck Next Time!" message. Really, all that is predetermined with Solar and Lunar Exaltations is which kind of mortal they are likely to choose. IIRC, even Sidereal Exaltations can do that but don't because they dislike disrupting Fate by handing out a Celestial Exaltation to some random kid.

[Crissa]

Isn't predestiny the same as being born to it, Shirak?

Honestly, I don't see Exhalted as being transhumanism at all. Unless someone discovered it ages ago and then decided to bogart it...

-Crissa