[D&D 3.5] The Unconventional Wisdom of the Den

[Chamomile]

If you read his posts again, you'll notice he never said what you claim he did. Every comment he made was very explicitly made with reference only to Psionics.

Context!

[Desdan_Mervolam]

He said ""I can't be arsed to read another book" is a legit reason not to have psionics in a game. "It's broken" / "It's science fiction" / "It changes the whole game" are dumbass ones". That is literally what I just pulled out of his post and it is a separate claim than "The XPH shouldn't be banned". He used it to bolster his claims of that, but I'm objecting to his arguments, not his thesis.

Context, it's not just for Breakfast any more, so have yourself a big bowlful of it.

[Chamomile]

He said ""I can't be arsed to read another book" is a legit reason not to have psionics in a game. "It's broken" / "It's science fiction" / "It changes the whole game" are dumbass ones". That is literally what I just pulled out of his post and it is a separate claim than "The XPH shouldn't be banned". He used it to bolster his claims of that, but I'm objecting to his arguments, not his thesis.

His argument, as he has explicitly stated, is not that those are invalid arguments, but that they decisively do not apply to Psionics.

They're only dumbass reasons because they're wrong.

Seriously. Read.

[Desdan_Mervolam]

I will tell you what: If Ice9 comes back and says that yes, his comments only apply to Psionics, and that there ARE situations where balance and theme are grounds to deny a suppliment, I will openly and unequivocally apologize to him here in this thread.

Until then, get bent.

[CatharzGodfoot]

So the reason to include psionics even though its broken is that magic is broken too?

[PhoneLobster]

That would be another brilliant implementation of the well proven "Two wrongs make a right" theory.

[A Man In Black]

I will tell you what: If Ice9 comes back

Is there a reason you're carrying on some stupid-assed grudge instead of talking about role-playing games?

[Chamomile]

Is there a reason you're carrying on some stupid-assed grudge instead of talking about role-playing games?

That is kind of the mood the Gaming Den breeds. Hostility is very nearly explicitly encouraged, so what other result would you expect?

[Kaelik]

1) Koumei, your hatred of Stormwind has caused you to not actually know shit about Psionics. The feats for high Psionics game are not any different from Quicken fucking Spell. And Psi items, see below.

2) On th subject of Psi items, Psionics characters want only one Psionic item ever, the Torc of Power Preservation. Other than that, they can just fucking get regular +Int + Resistance, ect.

[Archmage Joda]

Not to mention that said Torc got stealth nerfed by the Magic Item compendium, by my recollection, to be a 1/day thing instead of a constant 1 point discount.

[Leress]

Not to mention that said Torc got stealth nerfed by the Magic Item compendium, by my recollection, to be a 1/day thing instead of a constant 1 point discount.

Actually it is 5/day.

[Josh_Kablack]

Psi is still shit.

Ability Burn

This is a special form of ability damage that cannot be magically or psionically healed. It is caused by the use of certain psionic feats and powers. It returns only through natural healing.

What the fuck Brucey C? How is that even supposed to work? Have you never heard of giving out penalties?

Body Fuel [Psionic]

You can expand your power point total at the expense of your health.
Benefit

You can recover 2 power points by taking 1 point of ability burn damage to each of your three ability scores: Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution.

You can recover additional power points for a proportional cost to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution. These recovered points are added to your power point reserve as if you had gained them by resting overnight.
Special

Only living creatures can use this feat. You can take advantage of this feat only while in your own body.

But you can totally burn your stats to nothing and then have Metamorphosis overwrite them. And arguably you can burn the stats of a Metamorphosis form down to nothing then abandon it, if you want to get stupid, ( and we are talking psionics) you can use metamorphosis to assume the form of an object and then burn physical ability scores - which you may or may not have, and then argue that "ability burn is ability damage, not ability drain and hardness reduces damage, including ability score damage".

And you can totally use Fission +Body Fuel + Metaconcert with your duplicate, who can burn its stats to nothing and actually die so as to prevent you taking any burn at all despite increasing your power point total. Sure you get a negative level out of that deal, but that negative level is totally cureable by the relevant magics[/ur] or [url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/restorationPsionic.htm]Psionic Powers letting you bypass the whole idiot "no magic healing" restriction by converting one of the other PC's 4th level spell slots into additional PP or using your own 6th level powers to do so. I guess converting 2nd level spell slots into additional PP for you as a two part combo is somehow "too powerful, banned from use", but requiring a feat to chain a 5th+ a 6th + a 7th level power into an infinite PP loop is just fine.

In essence, there's a restriction that says "you can't use the rules as intended, but you totally can dumpster dive for combos that let you circumvent this restriction"

I guess that the idea of writing ability burn as a persistent ability score penalty that goes away with time but not magic was to elegant a solution for Bruce or has fanslugs to even consider. (this still lets the infinite loop occur, but fixes the metamorph weirdness and acheives the desired "no magic healing" without being total bullshit.


****

Moving on to other stupid in the SRD psi:

An astral construct generally appears as an animate clump of ectoplasm with a vaguely humanoid shape, but the manifester can mold or sculpt one according to his or her whim within the limits imposed by the creature’s size. The quality of such “construct sculpture” is determined by a Craft (sculpting) check. A result of 10 to 19 creates a creature that is recognizably similar to the desired creature shape; a result of 20 to 29 creates a construct that looks like an accurate portrayal of that creature type; a result of 30 or higher creates a construct that looks like a specific individual. No matter how high the Craft (sculpting) check result, though, an astral construct’s appearance can’t hide the otherworldly material from which it is formed.

Really?

You have to burn ranks on craft to have it look like a type of critter - and even if you do burn those ranks, it still can't pass for anything that's not an astral construct?!?

What the fuck?


NEXT?

Displays are new and not cool

On the off chance I need to elaborate - what the fuck is this from? There is zero source material where Psi powers cause olfactory displays. Nada. None. Zip. Same for Drum an' Base humming.

While I can point to source material for Psi powers causing ectoplasm, pink laser flashes and mental awareness, the mechanics were a poor and unnecessary attempt to emulate the V,S,M components that themselves were a remnant of one of Gygax's crew's many many ill-considered magic rebalancings. The 3.5 version tries to mitigate this by making them a bigger waste of time and space than they were in 3.0 - by which I mean they got rid of the feat burn to eliminate displays and instead let psions eliminate them by making a Concentration DC with the exact same DC as casting on the defensive. Since the casting on the defensive DC scales by one every two levels and Concentration scales by 2 ranks plus some stat and magic bonuses every 2 levels, this becomes irrelevant due to auto-success in the mid levels and they could have saved a lot of ink and silliness by saying "psi powers are obvious when used by a manifester of under 6th level and inobvious when used by higher level manifester."


NEXT


Check out the power level on this

Seriously?


****

Conclusion:, So in less than an hour of browsing the current PSI stuff in the SRD, I turn up a restriction that doesn't actually work, an infinite loop, a Craft skill sink that doesn't actually do anything, needless restrictions that don't conform to any source material and a ludicrously useless power. Psi is still shit and the only think that could save it would be a full on rewrite and putting Bruce Cordell in a dunking stool.

[Kaelik]

In less than thirty seconds of browsing the SRD I find the spell Gate. I guess that means Core Wizards are super shitty and need a complete rewrite.

Yes, Ability Burn is stupid. Yes, Manifestations are stupid, just as stupid as the V/S/M components that don't cause people to declare that Wizards need a complete rewrite. Yes, the craft check for astral constructs is dumb, so you just don't ever do it.

Yes, Elfsight is worth taking if you are already level 7+, and your DM faps to secret doors, and really makes you declare searches of every wall section, and you don't have an elf in the part who has search as a class skill.

What exactly is the problem with Elf sight? Are you upset that it's level 2 instead of level 1?

[Username17]

I will tell you what: If Ice9 comes back

Is there a reason you're carrying on some stupid-assed grudge instead of talking about role-playing games?

Better question: why are you quoting Desdan here? Desdan had a completely reasonable point, and Chamomile jumped on his dick with one of his patented troll arguments where he pretends to be playing devil's advocate or some shit and starts haranguing someone for not being neutral enough or something.

Ice9's argument about how disliking the Psionics books because they are out of genre for virtually every campaign and have shitty flavor was somehow a bad reason to ban the books was fucking retarded, and Desdan was totally right to call him on that. Then Chamomile went off on a thread derail tirade about how people were being mean.

-Username17

[Josh_Kablack]

In less than thirty seconds of browsing the SRD I find the spell Gate. I guess that means Core Wizards are super shitty and need a complete rewrite.

This is also true, but somewhat more "unconventional" than the assertion that 3e Psionics are shit.

[K]

In less than thirty seconds of browsing the SRD I find the spell Gate. I guess that means Core Wizards are super shitty and need a complete rewrite.

This is also true, but somewhat more "unconventional" than the assertion that 3e Psionics are shit.

No one is arguing that there aren't broken parts of core DnD.

The problem is that Psionics is like 30% broken instead of the simply 5% broken of Core. Most people don't know enough about psionics to know which 30% is broken, unlike Core where everyone is pretty much informed.

[Chamomile]

-snip-

Pointless hostility and grudge-posting, Exhibit B. Pretending someone has a point when it has been made very explicitly clear that they do not because you do not like the person.

[PhaedrusXY]

Special

Only living creatures can use this feat. You can take advantage of this feat only while in your own body.

Half of the abuses you talked about don't work because of this line. Of course, you can still burn your own stats down and them Metamorph into something and replace them, but you can only do that once. So that's not a lot of power points you're getting, and you're pretty much fucked if that Metamorphosis ends or is dispelled, or whatever.

Also, if you want to argue that "damage is damage, even ability damage", then you'd take half the ability burn your Fissioned clone did to itself when you dismiss it.

At the time of rejoining, you take half of the damage your duplicate has taken since this power was manifested.

So that also isn't going to actually gain you very much.

I don't really know why you guys hate psi so much on here. Yes, it has some stupid and overpowered shit, but it's not like its exactly cornered the market on that. Every damned D&D book in existence pretty much has that stuff. I think psi is actually quite well balanced compared to most of the other shit that's been published, including core.

I can understand not liking the "flavor" or whatever, but not "it's overpowered/shitty design/etc", because I just don't think that is true, and I'm quite familiar with psi and the "normal" magic systems, as I've played the hell out of PCs and NPCs using both systems. From the sounds of it, you guys hate on psi while not actually having ever used it.

[Leress]

See, I don't like the Psi system of Power Points as a resource mechanic. For me it's not about the flavor, nor the broken or overpowered abilities, it's the resource manage system itself.

[Josh_Kablack]

Ability Burn
This is a special form of ability damage that cannot be magically or psionically healed. It is caused by the use of certain psionic feats and powers. It returns only through natural healing.

Ability Score Loss
Some attacks reduce the opponent’s score in one or more abilities. This loss can be temporary (ability damage) or permanent (ability drain).

While any loss is debilitating, losing all points in an ability score can be devastating.

Strength 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He lies helpless on the ground.
Dexterity 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid, and helpless.
Constitution 0 means that the character is dead.

Body Fuel [Psionic]
You can expand your power point total at the expense of your health.

Benefit
You can recover 2 power points by taking 1 point of ability burn damage to each of your three ability scores: Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution.

You can recover additional power points for a proportional cost to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution..

When you manifest this power, a number of power points you designate flows from each participant into a collective pool. One individual is chosen as the metaconcert conductor by mutual consent of the other participants (this is usually the manifester, but doesn’t have to be). Until the power ends, this conductor directs the efforts of the group. Misty strands of glowing power link the brows of all the participants in a complex and shifting pattern.

You and your duplicate evenly split your power points,

If your duplicate dies before the duration expires, no rejoining occurs, and you gain one negative level.

No, the line that makes it tricky is actually this one in fission

"You cannot use fusion or metaconcert with a duplicate, or share any other power or effect that pools abilities (the sum of you and you is still just you)."

So it actually takes two characters with the relevant abilities to have their duplicates ability burn to death to convert restorations into PP gain loops

[Koumei]

1) Koumei, your hatred of Stormwind has caused you to not actually know shit about Psionics..

Well I did say it wouldn't be the last time I was wrong, and there you go. I, Koumei, hereby declare that I was wrong on the Internet about something.

Yes, I did just assume "Okay they want a Cloak of Saving Throws, a Hat of Casting Stat, and if they don't use powers with attack rolls they can be a smartass about Proficiencies and use Full Plate. Presumably they also want magic rocks of some sort that probably give them more PP, and those weird skin things that one guy wanted, and there are probably also special Psi-shoes or something that do something weird that they want that are reasonable but I would have to read the book to know what they are."

Good thing the stupid flavour and stupid mechanic still and annoying fans still stand, otherwise I'd be completely wrong about something on the Internet.

[Kaelik]

Actually, the thing is that other than one item, all they want is the same thing as everyone else.

What he probably wanted was the Psychometric SKin of dampening, which is an item every character ever should want, because it works on all spells and SLAs, and it makes all their dice roll ones.

So like, all those monsters with SLAs of Fireball and Schorching Ray? They do CL damage or 4 damage per ray, and then you apply your various resistances to that. They are fucking stupid.

Or maybe the skin of constant effect Polymorph, which again, everyone should want, because it's fucking polymorph.

But as a general rule, there is no goddam reason for people to request special Psionic items for their Psionic characters.

[Dominicius]

Ice9's argument about how disliking the Psionics books because they are out of genre for virtually every campaign and have shitty flavor was somehow a bad reason to ban the books was fucking retarded.

Whoa, wait just a second here. When has the fluff for psionics actually been counterproductive to a campaign? A psy warrior is just a warrior monk and those can be found in almost any setting. A psion is pretty much a wizard that uses magic/chakra/energy in ways like it is shown in almost all works of fiction. And the Wilder does not exist.

As far as I have seen, psioncs have actually inspired people to create campaigns that have their own flavor more than tome of magic, which did shit all when it comes to inspiring people even if the fluff there is more in line with what you expect from D&D.

[PhoneLobster]

When has the fluff for psionics actually been counterproductive to a campaign?

Hey, I kinda like the psionics fluff, I'm the first person around here to demand that RPGs be toolkits of modular bits of fluff, and I'm apparently well known for being really vocal about DMs going on authority trips and exceeding their limited powas.

But seriously, when? When the DM/Group said so. It's a particular piece of fluff, like any other piece of fluff it is out of place the moment people say it is.

As to the rest of Psionics (XPH edition), I like the fluff, it isn't THAT far off core to be a huge problem, and the exploits are unremarkable.

BUT. It has flaws, two wrongs do not make a right, adding it to your game is DOABLE but it is over all going to worsen the mechanical stability.

And if you want the "unconventional wisdom of the den" here is a common one. Infinite PP loops and fision fusion polymorph voodoo are not significant problems compared to the small nasty creeping mechanical problems the XPH has.

If anything FINITE PP points, and the general crapness of how they work when functioning as intended are worse for the game than infinite loops.

The entire Psionic Focus mechanic, key to the basic function of many psionic feats and metamagic, is completely bullshit. When NOT being exploited.

The entire Wilder class is just plain wrong.

The psychic warrior class is an irrelevant screw up.

Don't even let me mention the god damn soul knife.

Many key psionic spells are poorly written, refer entirely to core spells with no handy reprint of information in the XPH, refer entirely to core except with key poorly described differences, are stupid, don't scale properly, or worst of worst, are just plain nerfy versions of core.

I mean fuck, Psionic domination, you know, mind control, is WORSE THAN THE CORE VERSION FOR NO REASON. A specialist brain dude telepath IS WORSE AT MIND CONTROL THAN A WIZARD.

THAT sort of problem is the creeping bullshit that makes XPH over all bad for the game. Because that sort of bullshit actually gets used and actually fucks things up.

[Meikle641]

I mean fuck, Psionic domination, you know, mind control, is WORSE THAN THE CORE VERSION FOR NO REASON. A specialist brain dude telepath IS WORSE AT MIND CONTROL THAN A WIZARD.

Technically that got fixed in errata. I know I raged when I saw telepaths being worse than wizards.

This errata helps that some.