[D&D 3.5] The Unconventional Wisdom of the Den

[Swordslinger]

The entire Psionic Focus mechanic, key to the basic function of many psionic feats and metamagic, is completely bullshit. When NOT being exploited.

What did you hate about psi focus? I really only found it to be limiting at ultra high levels because it prevented you from applying double metamagic, other than that, it seemed to benefit the psion, because they got the metamagic cheaper than the wizard.

[PhoneLobster]

This errata helps that some.

Still. Worse.

A generalist wizard who isn't even trying hard and is using LESS of his daily spell resource allotment is STILL casting a strictly superior spell. That a Psionic Telepathy Specialist is permitted several character levels later to spend even more of their spell casting resource to EVENTUALLY upgrade to something resembling the wizard version is NOT a significant improvement.

Not to mention the whole Dominate Monster styled as an upgrade means it too needs to wait additional character levels and spell resources to match the wizard version.

And all that with extra math and administration to boot. Because if there is one thing you want from having your spell nerfed it is to have it nerfed in a way that requires you to do more calculation and paperwork when using a weaker version of it.

What did you hate about psi focus?

Everything.

It was just that bad. Unique mechanic, extra rolls, additional accounting and complexity, minimal to no benefit, frequently still tactically inferior to just not using it.

And after all of it, IT STILL HAD A BULLSHIT WIZARD TYPE SPELL LEVEL COST.

Using this feat increases the power point cost of the power by 4. The power’s total cost cannot exceed your manifester level.

Combine that with the general need to pay maximum permitted upgrade costs (which I remind you ARE CAPPED) for your powers to be remotely level appropriate BEFORE accounting for metamagic effects meant you hardly ever used metamagic effects anyway.

But hey, if you did decide to use some metamagic instead of I dunno, level appropriate durations, targets or damage dice or something, you were under additional restrictions and had to make more rolls. Awesome!

And if that weren't enough a number of non-metamagic related feats got the additional benefit of revolving around psionic focus as well just to ensure they too had additional administrative costs and worse benefits while further sabotaging your use of metamagic by making you fall off the ceiling every time you tried it! AWESOME!

[Ice9]

I guess wouldn't be the fucking Gaming Den without a pointless argument over semantics.

will tell you what: If Ice9 comes back and says that yes, his comments only apply to Psionics, and that there ARE situations where balance and theme are grounds to deny a suppliment, I will openly and unequivocally apologize to him here in this thread.

My comments only apply to Psionics, and there ARE situations where balance and theme are grounds to deny a suppliment. Like the D&D Joke Book and the BoEF. I actually like the flavor of the Binder though, FWIW.


Moving on - oh look, Frank's hating on the "flavor", big surprise there.
You know what, most fucking campaigns do not have a very solid flavor. If the DM has actually gone and created a consistent setting, with specific themes and metaphysics, adjusted the existing material to fit it, and allowed/disallowed supplements based on their suitability - then sure, ban psionics if it doesn't fit the vision. On the other hand, more likely, the DM is just using the "default" flavor, which is a fucking grab-bag with no cohesive themes beyond "sort of fantasy based", and their hatred of psionics is based on the name "psionics".


Ok, let's look at some mechanical complaints:
* Body Fuel - Oh look, a feat that might be overpowered. Boy, I'm sure glad none of those exist for magic!
* Elfsight - A crappy power! Why that settles it, psionics must be uniquely bad!
* Infinite Loops - Well, at least it's not like you can do them at low level.

This, I'm confused by:

Using this feat increases the power point cost of the power by 4. The power’s total cost cannot exceed your manifester level.

By the cost, that must refer to Maximize Power. Which is cheaper (4PP = 2 spell levels) than Maximize Spell. Now admittedly, since most damaging powers scale by PP cost, Maximize is kinda pointless until rather high level. Empower is pretty nice at 2PP though, and there's some decent unique ones like Burrowing Power and Unconditional Power.

[Draco_Argentum]

+1 to PhoneLobster. I like the psi flavour too but even the XPH is bad is ways that matter far more than some infinite loop that the DM will straight up ban.

[Desdan_Mervolam]

My comments only apply to Psionics, and there ARE situations where balance and theme are grounds to deny a suppliment. Like the D&D Joke Book and the BoEF. I actually like the flavor of the Binder though, FWIW.

I see. Good to hear we don't actually disagree on this point. Sorry for calling you out onto the carpet then.

[Kaelik]

My comments only apply to Psionics, and there ARE situations where balance and theme are grounds to deny a suppliment. Like the D&D Joke Book and the BoEF. I actually like the flavor of the Binder though, FWIW.

I see. Good to hear we don't actually disagree on this point. Sorry for calling you out onto the carpet then.

It was kinda especially dumb because it was in fact already clear from his post that it applies to Psionics because they aren't unbalanced or of deficient theme. And yeah, you can totally disagree with that, but it was explicitly stated.

[Koumei]

I think BoEF is less bad than XPH. At least it has some things that you can just throw into the usual campaign that use normal mechanics (and can be used by a bunch of people who use nothing else from the book) and are decent and their decent use is right there where it says - no "this is actually way too good/bad/confusing".

(I am referring to a spell that stores a ball of healing for later, and a spell that makes your opponent's clothes, including armour and magic items, fall off. Actually, the True Strike x -1 one isn't bad either.)

Neither one is only available to Pornomancers, or requires making a Fondle check or spending ero-ero points which are only introduced in that book, or only make a ring fall off unless you Empower it to level ___.

So there we have three things that you can slot into the normal game without it cocking everything up, that don't change the mechanics or game world, that you could in fact publish in any other book without having to reprint any other section of the BoEF.

And they don't even add a particular flavour that didn't already exist ("casting spells messes with people/moves things/summons energy"), which is good, seeing as that's a subjective thing and by adding any new flavour, you're dividing the audience into "Likes psychics/spaceships/spooky shadows/true naming/kung fu" and "Does not".

(And for the record, I know there are plenty of broken spells and shit spells. Guess what, I tell players not to take those, too. At least with the magic system I already know what those are.)

[Dominicius]

But unlike XPH the fluff of BoEF is most cases actually damaging to the campaign.

But I'm not really interested in arguing over the merits/demerits of BoEF since nobody uses it and XPH has plenty of stuff that can also be introduced into the game without bothering with the overall system (the general feats, a few monsters and items).

The overall system might not be good but it still manages to survive on the simple fact that D&D has many more systems and classes that work worse (and some people like to have a nerfed version of the wizard). So if I ever manage to convince someone to play a Psychic Warrior instead of a fighter I still consider that a VAST improvement. But if we were to make a serious effort to fix psionics then we should at least give a token effort to preserve augmentations. The idea that you get more powerful magic the more energy you spend is a fairly popular theme in people's minds.

[PhoneLobster]

(and some people like to have anerfed version of the wizard)

Not nerfed enough to matter. Only enough to piss me off. Also. Wizard nerfing is probably a bad idea. Aside from the mega exploits no one cares about wizards are probably close to where you want to be at. Ask 4E.

The differences between the Psion and the Wizard may see the psion pick up a few nerfs here, some different mega exploits no one uses there, but mostly it just has a small bunch of generally worse mechanics and otherwise no particular change to the status quo.

That is in no way a step forward, no matter how small. If you like the fluff enough to make up for the disadvantages, fine, it isn't unworkable.

But if you are arguing from the mechanically better for the game than a wizard standpoint you are talking out your ass so far that your Grandpa is farting.

someone to play a Psychic Warrior instead of a fighter I still consider that a VAST improvement.

But the psychic warrior is so incredibly bad it ISN'T a vast improvement on fighter. It's like being a RANGER (a class arguably as bad or worse than the fighter) only without the BAB!

The bulk of the psychic warriors power set is basically item substitution bullshit, that you can just substitute with items and you don't even get enough PP (and if I vaguely recall, manifester levels) to do enough anyway.

You quiet possibly WOULD actually be better off being a fighter rather than a psychic warrior. Just like you are better off being a fighter rather than a Ranger.

And even if you WANT to be a psychic warrior and use their bullshit specific powers... you are significantly better off doing it by being a Psion or a Wilder! And since those are in the same book as the Psychic Warrior... why the heck not?

And in the end the Psychic warrior being a self buffing fighting battle wizard doesn't compare with the fighter he compares to the Cleric and generally loses all around.

we should at least give a token effort to preserve augmentations. The idea that you get more powerful magic the more energy you spend is a fairly popular bit of fluff in peoples minds.

Augmentations as implemented were an all around massive mechanical failure.

Do tell. What the heck do you intend to preserve?

The name? It wasn't exactly snappy.

[Dominicius]

(and some people like to have anerfed version of the wizard)

Not nerfed enough to matter. Only enough to piss me off. Also. Wizard nerfing is probably a bad idea. Aside from the mega exploits no one cares about wizards are probably close to where you want to be at. Ask 4E.

I did not say that I wanted a nerfed version of the wizard, just that there are enough people out there for it to matter.

You quiet possibly WOULD actually be better off being a fighter rather than a psychic warrior.

I don't even know how you can say that with a straight face.

Do tell. What the heck do you intend to preserve?

The name? It wasn't exactly snappy.

The idea.

[Winnah]

Why should the psychic warrior be compared to the cleric instead of fighter? There are planty of other casters that rely on self buffs with a limited power threshold.

If anything, I think Bard would make a better comparison, as they both rely on buffs and both cap out at 6th level spells or powers.

[Fuchs]

But unlike XPH the fluff of BoEF is most cases actually damaging to the campaign.

We use it. We don't use the special rules which require additional stats and skills, but prestige classes and spells and such are ported in if wanted and adapted.

Unless you get graphical, the fluff of BoEF is not at all damaging. If anyone feels "To heal the wounded duke my character sleeps with him" is damaging the game then why would I play a game with him or her that involves "I call upon a demon to rip out the necromancer's guts"?

Honestly, who do you play with that the fluff of BoEF is damaging while all the bloodthirsty shit from D&D is not?

[Chamomile]

But unlike XPH the fluff of BoEF is most cases actually damaging to the campaign.

We use it. We don't use the special rules which require additional stats and skills, but prestige classes and spells and such are ported in if wanted and adapted.

Unless you get graphical, the fluff of BoEF is not at all damaging. If anyone feels "To heal the wounded duke my character sleeps with him" is damaging the game then why would I play a game with him or her that involves "I call upon a demon to rip out the necromancer's guts"?

Honestly, who do you play with that the fluff of BoEF is damaging while all the bloodthirsty shit from D&D is not?

This is very much true. I was disappointed by how non-damaging the BoEF was. I was hoping it would be funnier.

[PhoneLobster]

I did not say that I wanted a nerfed version of the wizard, just that there are enough people out there for it to matter.

There are enough people out there that think they need a nerfy version of the 3.5 Fighter to matter. That doesn't mean allowing the 3.5 Ranger into my game is remotely good for it.

I don't even know how you can say that with a straight face.

It may be a close match but I repeat. There is little or nothing of value that the psychic warrior actual does that makes up for losing the small amount of HP and BAB the fighter gets. Much of the power set is about substituting for magical equipment and the fighter can just have magical equipment and the cleric substitutes and self buffs better.

You walk into the class potentially not even being able to cast spells AT ALL. For MANY levels you give up the BAB and HP and portion of your fighter bonus feats in return for maybe ONE level appropriate power use per day (yes, that's right ONE). Thanks in large part to the Augmentation rules. Even through the middle of your career you are still only throwing down THREE level appropriate self buffs a day. No really have a look, 10th level you have less than 30 (base) power points, at 10th level a level appropriate augmented power costs... 10 power points. Sure you get some for wisdom, maybe even enough for maybe one more power use. That is NOT exceptional.

That is piddling bullshit. It is ENTIRELY reasonable to assume that those self buffs are largely irrelevant compared to the equipment available to both fighters AND psychic warriors (and clerics) at that level.

So yeah. I can say it with a straight face. Psychic warriors suck that much.

All the more so considering you can basically throw a few fighter levels onto an actual Psion and still come out well ahead of a Psychic Warrior, and even have actual psychic warrior powers with the spare feats (but why would you?). And that's not even a good idea as a thing to go and do.

The idea.

Is STUPID.

Okay, again, I don't mind a fairly traditional energy point type resource system. They have some merits. The PP and Augmentation system from the XPH was very very stupid.

The whole concept where you had a pool of points growing by no particular pattern, and powers that grew in a strict level based linear cost equal exactly to your caster level was dumb.

OK I'm level 1 and I use my powers three times a day. I'm level 5 I use them 6 times a day. I'm level 10 I use them 10 times a day. But in the mean time all the costs change and the accounting uses much bigger more pointlessly complex numbers for NO REASON. The powers could all be auto augmented and cost just 1 point each and I could have the same number of points as powers I should use and that would be an ALL AROUND superior system.

Oh but what if (very fucking rarely) you DON'T max out augmentation to create a level appropriate power? Fine. Fuck it. Double my manna pool make the rare "you don't augment this one dumb ass" powers cost 1 and the rest cost 2, whatever. It would still be a damn superior system.

Augmentation offered only two things. Pointless accounting and the ability to voluntarily cast spells that were not level appropriate.

It would also offer a third thing, breaking the XPH's already borked Wilder and Metamagic mechanics. BUT THAT IS ABOVE YOUR MANIFESTER LEVEL CAP AND YOU MAY NOT SPEND THAT MANY THINGS!

[K]

This errata helps that some.

Still. Worse.

A generalist wizard who isn't even trying hard and is using LESS of his daily spell resource allotment is STILL casting a strictly superior spell. That a Psionic Telepathy Specialist is permitted several character levels later to spend even more of their spell casting resource to EVENTUALLY upgrade to something resembling the wizard version is NOT a significant improvement.

Not to mention the whole Dominate Monster styled as an upgrade means it too needs to wait additional character levels and spell resources to match the wizard version.

And all that with extra math and administration to boot. Because if there is one thing you want from having your spell nerfed it is to have it nerfed in a way that requires you to do more calculation and paperwork when using a weaker version of it.

I think you need to look at it again.

With Overchannel, it's basically Dominate Monster at character level 9. It blows the Wizard version out of the water, especially considering you get better versions if you use it on things that are not dragons, abberations, outsiders, and elementals.

[PhoneLobster]

Yeah sure, with a duration of Concentration. Screw that.

[K]

Yeah sure, with a duration of Concentration. Screw that.

Who cares? It's Dominate Monster at character level 9, a full eight levels before the Wizard.

It even lasts a full day or affects two targets if it's not a dragon, abberation, elemental, or outsider.

That's crazy good. It might even be game-breaking good.

[PhaedrusXY]

I mean fuck, Psionic domination, you know, mind control, is WORSE THAN THE CORE VERSION FOR NO REASON. A specialist brain dude telepath IS WORSE AT MIND CONTROL THAN A WIZARD.

Technically that got fixed in errata. I know I raged when I saw telepaths being worse than wizards.

This errata helps that some.

Some psionic versions are a hell of a lot better than the core versions, though. Remote Viewing and Clairvoyant Sense spank the crap out of the core versions of those spells, and Object Reading is a powerful and interesting effect that I don't remember seeing in any spell, core or otherwise. So psions are better at seeing things at a distance and learning about "psychic impressions" left on objects, but worse at mind control. The "seer" is a big archetype of "psychics" in popular myths, at least as much as mind controlling people. So I don't have a huge problem with that.

[K]

...but worse at mind control...

Seriously?

They get Charm at 1st level that becomes charm monster at character level 4 instead of 9 for a Wizard. They get a version of suggestion at level 3 that becomes a minor mass suggestion at level 4 and just gets better when the Wizard is getting it at 5 and not getting mass suggestion until level 11(and only then is better than the psionic version).

Between that and getting Dominate Monster 8 levels early, they rock the face off of Wizard in mind control even before you account for telepathy synergizing with mind control.

[PhaedrusXY]

...but worse at mind control...

Seriously?

They get Charm at 1st level that becomes charm monster at character level 4 instead of 9 for a Wizard. They get a version of suggestion at level 3 that becomes a minor mass suggestion at level 4 and just gets better when the Wizard is getting it at 5 and not getting mass suggestion until level 11(and only then is better than the psionic version).

Between that and getting Dominate Monster 8 levels early, they rock the face off of Wizard in mind control even before you account for telepathy synergizing with mind control.

I thought about going back and editing my post after your last one, since you'd already debunked this, but decided not to. I agree. They're not actually worse, due to the augmentations.

[PhoneLobster]

Who cares? It's Dominate Monster at character level 9, a full eight levels before the Wizard.

I care. The Aguments (with errata no one has or uses) may make it good, even too good. But WITHOUT the Augments it ISN'T good.

This is problematic because it means that when you first get it you are worse off than the wizard. Then many levels later you are better off.

It's broken both ways. Too weak and then perhaps even too strong. In the mean time most importantly Daominate Person is a key trait of the telepath and you have to pay extra and wait multiple levels before it is even AS good as the wizard version.

"Oh hey but X levels after THAT it gets EVEN BETTER!" is just irrelevant distraction. It still sucks when you get it.

[PhaedrusXY]

Who cares? It's Dominate Monster at character level 9, a full eight levels before the Wizard.

I care. The Aguments (with errata no one has or uses) may make it good, even too good. But WITHOUT the Augments it ISN'T good.

This is problematic because it means that when you first get it you are worse off than the wizard. Then many levels later you are better off.

It's broken both ways. Too weak and then perhaps even too strong. In the mean time most importantly Daominate Person is a key trait of the telepath and you have to pay extra and wait multiple levels before it is even AS good as the wizard version.

"Oh hey but X levels after THAT it gets EVEN BETTER!" is just irrelevant distraction. It still sucks when you get it.

You get the power at level 7. At manifester level 8, you can extend the duration to 1 hr, instead of concentration, by augmenting with 1 extra power point. Oh noes... I had to suffer through a whole level with an inferior power! (Unless I had one of the many ways to boost my manifester level, even temporarily... then you could do this as soon as you got it.)

And as to not using the errata... I think everyone that actually uses psionics references the SRD, which includes the Errata. It's just a hell of a lot easier to find things in an html referenced data base than it is in a book. I'd even forgot that the original version didn't include the augments... because I almost never look at the book.

[K]

Who cares? It's Dominate Monster at character level 9, a full eight levels before the Wizard.

I care. The Aguments (with errata no one has or uses) may make it good, even too good. But WITHOUT the Augments it ISN'T good.

This is problematic because it means that when you first get it you are worse off than the wizard. Then many levels later you are better off.

It's broken both ways. Too weak and then perhaps even too strong. In the mean time most importantly Daominate Person is a key trait of the telepath and you have to pay extra and wait multiple levels before it is even AS good as the wizard version.

"Oh hey but X levels after THAT it gets EVEN BETTER!" is just irrelevant distraction. It still sucks when you get it.

The errata only adds the duration augments, meaning even if you are living in a world where using the SRD is too much trouble to use you still get Dominate Monster eight levels early. You get Dominate Person two levels early, and you still get extra targets which is something Wizards will never do.

Heck, at the level the Wizard gets dominate person, you get Dominate Monster. That's really good even with a concentration duration and if I was a Wizard I'd want that instead of the long-duration and generally useless Wizard version.

If a Concentration duration is the thing that spoils the mass dominate monster effect that no Wizard will ever have, it seems like you are inventing things to bitch about because that's overwhelmingly powerful even before you consider the ways that psionicists can get out of concentrating on things.

If game-breaking power isn't good enough for you, I think we can just ignore your opinion.

[PhoneLobster]

Ok K so what? You are telling us the XPH is awesome and fine? That the Augmenting mechanic, and horrendous PP actually work?

Really. Because with a complex system of caveats, extra feats, HP costs, additional accounting, errata, web based SRD references and generally pointless confusion you can engineer to get SOME effects early?

Or are you rather going out of your way with nit picking?

The Augmenting mechanic is baddy mc-bad bad, even if you find a case where it is profitable to use it you still haven't shown that the mechanic is a remotely good thing.

[...You Lost Me]

Ok K so what? You are telling us the XPH is awesome and fine? That the Augmenting mechanic, and horrendous PP actually work?

Really. Because with a complex system of caveats, extra feats, HP costs, additional accounting, errata, web based SRD references and generally pointless confusion you can engineer to get SOME effects early?

Or are you rather going out of your way with nit picking?

The Augmenting mechanic is baddy mc-bad bad, even if you find a case where it is profitable to use it you still haven't shown that the mechanic is a remotely good thing.

Vancian casting is baddy mc-bad bad, even if you find a case where it is profitable to use it you still haven't shown that the mechanic is a remotely good thing.

God, I love this guy. YOU SAID I WAS WRONG BUT YOU ARE WRONG AND YOU ARE NITPICKING BUT THIS THING THAT HAS TO DO WITH PSIONICS AND HAS EXTRA FEATS NOT LIKE THE WIZARD AND ERRATA AND CAVEATS AND HP COSTS AND ACCOUNTING AND SRD USE AND POINTLESS COMPLEXITY NOT LIKE THE REST OF D&D IS REALLY DUMB BECAUSE I SAID SO AND YOU ARE WRONG.

Keep it going, PL, you're pretty funny.