What is "player skill?"

General questions, debates, and rants about RPGs

Moderator: Moderators

Hieronymous Rex
Journeyman
Posts: 153
Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2010 1:23 am

Post by Hieronymous Rex »

Chamomile wrote:Limited character customization strikes me as a flaw. If me and my friend Bob both want to play fire mages, there should still be some things which set us apart. You could have customizable class features like the Tome Monk, but that's just moving the feats into the classes.
That's what I think multiclassing should be for. Part of my point is that much of "character customization" in most games is an illusion: your character may be "customized" but the differences will be unrecognizable to an observer ("yeah, I get extra turn attempts, who cares") or trap option ("+1 to one weapon? Sign me up!").

Also, Fire Mage seems like a pretty specific kind of character. What sort of differences were you imagining for you and your friend?
User avatar
Archmage
Knight-Baron
Posts: 757
Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:05 pm

Post by Archmage »

Basic social skills are a requirement for any group activity.
P.C. Hodgell wrote:That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.
shadzar wrote:i think the apostrophe is an outdated idea such as is hyphenation.
ishy
Duke
Posts: 2404
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:59 pm

Post by ishy »

Archmage wrote:Basic social skills are a requirement for any group activity.
Bull, I lack plenty of basic social skills and yet I still participate in plenty of group activities.
User avatar
Chamomile
Prince
Posts: 4632
Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 10:45 am

Post by Chamomile »

Avatar: the Last Airbender has plenty of examples of different types of fire magickery without one form being simply better than another. You could separate them into different classes, but then you'd seriously need, like, a hundred classes (unless it's Avatar: the Last Airbender: the RPG, in which case you can have, like, three classes for each element and then one or two non-bender classes).
Hieronymous Rex
Journeyman
Posts: 153
Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2010 1:23 am

Post by Hieronymous Rex »

Chamomile wrote:Avatar: the Last Airbender has plenty of examples of different types of fire magickery without one form being simply better than another. You could separate them into different classes, but then you'd seriously need, like, a hundred classes (unless it's Avatar: the Last Airbender: the RPG, in which case you can have, like, three classes for each element and then one or two non-bender classes).
From what little I've seen of the show, it doesn't seem that any more than 1 bender class per element, plus maybe a few variant classes like Sand Bender, are needed. Can you give examples of the "different types"? Because all I observed was "varying degrees", i.e. character levels.
User avatar
Chamomile
Prince
Posts: 4632
Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 10:45 am

Post by Chamomile »

If you pay close attention to the movements, different characters will fight with radically different styles. The attention to detail is actually really cool.
Hieronymous Rex
Journeyman
Posts: 153
Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2010 1:23 am

Post by Hieronymous Rex »

If you pay close attention to the movements, different characters will fight with radically different styles. The attention to detail is actually really cool.
Perhaps this is so, but couldn't that be encompassed by monk/fighter/rogue multiclasses?

From another angle, while having a lot of variation between fire mages in Avatar might be sensible, in other games, e.g. Tome D&D, the game doesn't revolve around elemental martial artists, but can merely include them. In such a game, having mechanically enforced subtypes of Fire Mage are less valuable at best, and clutter at worst.
User avatar
tussock
Prince
Posts: 2937
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2009 4:28 am
Location: Online
Contact:

Post by tussock »

Hieronymous Rex wrote:Part of my point is that much of "character customization" in most games is an illusion: your character may be "customized" but the differences will be unrecognizable to an observer ("yeah, I get extra turn attempts, who cares") or trap option ("+1 to one weapon? Sign me up!").
Customisation schemes seem to inevitably lead to stupid levels of specialisation in characters, which in tactical combats gives us glass cannons to play with, which the designers compensate for by giving us padded sumos to fight.

Like, you want to use a bow, and have a sword as backup. So you take the +1 to bows, and the +1 attacks with bows, and the +2d6 damage with bows, and then your sword's kinda crap by comparison so you take the "my bow is also a sword" thing.

Then someone casts wind wall and your bow doesn't work, so you cry like a little bitch and the designers take wind wall out of the whole game for you next edition. And give you "my bow is also a fireball", and "my bow is also a spiked chain".

So now your "customised" bow fighter does all the same shit as every other Wizard and Fighter in the game, no matter what they're facing. So, yeh.
User avatar
Chamomile
Prince
Posts: 4632
Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 10:45 am

Post by Chamomile »

Hieronymous Rex wrote:Perhaps this is so, but couldn't that be encompassed by monk/fighter/rogue multiclasses?

From another angle, while having a lot of variation between fire mages in Avatar might be sensible, in other games, e.g. Tome D&D, the game doesn't revolve around elemental martial artists, but can merely include them. In such a game, having mechanically enforced subtypes of Fire Mage are less valuable at best, and clutter at worst.
Hm. This is fair enough. But it ignores the fact that character customiazation is fun.
User avatar
Josh_Kablack
King
Posts: 5318
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: Online. duh

Post by Josh_Kablack »

Dude, you cannot have it all. Yeah, rainbows for everyone all the time would be nice, but amount of customization and simplicity are conflicting design goals.

Since you obviously dislike optimization, you probably haven't considered the meta-state of character optimization. Lemme break it down for you:

Character customization can be handled in two basic ways inside a class-based system:

1. Having a relatively small number of very broad classes where two characters of the same class can perform very differently.

This approach requires that players make a lot of decisions after they choose their class. (In terms of D&D these decisions include ability score allocation, race, feat selection, skill point allocation, background selection, which version of various class abilities to choose, what weapons to use, which spells to memorize, etc). Taken to the extreme, this is a point-buy system where there is only one class and it's all about the option selection.
This does seem a pain in the posterier compared to oldskool roll stats, pick class, pick race, pick weapon, paint yer mini chargen - but in return for all the tacked on complexity the system offers a much greater degree of character customization.

2. Having a large number of very narrow classes where all members of the same class perform very much alike. In this version, players choose a class and that's the only big decision they make - everything else is folded into that class. However to allow for each of the players to play a character type who appeals to them and who isn't overlapping completely with another player's characters you need a very large number of classes.
Taken to the extreme this is something like an arcade fighting game Pick one and press start to complete chargen

Except that in an arcade fighter if you can't figger a character out, you can wait 99 seconds to plunk more quarters and try another - in a TTRPG you're stuck with the character for at least the session if not longer, so some players are gonna want to think about it beforehand. Yet, in order to make an informed decision and figure which of the narrow classes best fits their own playstyle, a player a player has to read through all of the available classes. Except that it takes a LARGE number of such classes to allow a similar degree of customization to the system of few but broad classes.

As a minor digression, the system you imply where customization is handled via multiclassing is a subset of this system - such a game just allows people to mix and match levels between classes rather than writing each potential combination out as a unique class.


So either there are few classes to pick between but many things to pick within each class, or there are very few decisions other than class but many classes to pick from - in neither case is it a trivial optimization problem. Not unless you intentionally limit the amount of decisions involved in chargen by reducing the amount of customization available between characters.

And while there is certainly room to limit customization while still leaving interesting playspaces to explore in many TTRPG systems, that can be a hard sell to many players and does increase the odds that two players will play characters that greatly overlap.
Last edited by Josh_Kablack on Sun Sep 04, 2011 2:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
"But transportation issues are social-justice issues. The toll of bad transit policies and worse infrastructure—trains and buses that don’t run well and badly serve low-income neighborhoods, vehicular traffic that pollutes the environment and endangers the lives of cyclists and pedestrians—is borne disproportionately by black and brown communities."
User avatar
Maj
Prince
Posts: 4705
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: Shelton, Washington, USA

Post by Maj »

Archmage wrote:Incidentally, empathy and acting/writing skills (for tabletop or text-based RP, respectively) were actually left off the list initially because my experience is that play groups can't agree as to whether those are skills RPGs should be testing. Because while I think half the fun of RPGs is the improv acting aspect, the idea that players should be rewarded for being better actors is hotly contested.
I left out acting because some people can't, but I included empathy not necessarily for the ability to understand NPCs and cirumstances in-game, but rather, the ability to understand your own character. You have to be able to imagine yourself as a person who can shoot fireballs, or swing a sword, or talk eloquently, or track bad guys in the forest, or be dedicated to a god... Even if you do none of those things in real life at all.

Upon further reading of the subject on Wikipedia, apparently there is some debate over what I'm calling empathy. Because I'm not focusing on the emotional aspect, but rather the cognitive aspect, it could be called "perspective taking."

The point is... The simple act of pretending to be someone you're not requires the ability to change perspectives. And if that is actually a skill up for question, I contend that at that point, calling it a "roleplaying" game is utterly useless.
My son makes me laugh. Maybe he'll make you laugh, too.
Gx1080
Knight-Baron
Posts: 653
Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 1:38 am

Post by Gx1080 »

But most people just play "cooler" versions of themselves.
User avatar
Archmage
Knight-Baron
Posts: 757
Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:05 pm

Post by Archmage »

Gx1080 wrote:But most people just play "cooler" versions of themselves.
Well, honestly, I try not to. Any character I play is inevitably going to be influenced by my own personality traits, and there are archetypes I gravitate towards naturally, but I try not to be "myself, but with super adventurer powers." It's all personal preference. YMMV.
Maj wrote:The point is... The simple act of pretending to be someone you're not requires the ability to change perspectives. And if that is actually a skill up for question, I contend that at that point, calling it a "roleplaying" game is utterly useless.
Well, honestly, I agree with you, but I find the issue vexing as an amateur designer.

The thing about the "acting/character play" in D&D and other TTRPGs is that it's a subgame that is largely independent of the mechanics. Yes, the game's mechanics are going to encourage certain behaviors and make some character archetypes more or less effective. But being "skilled" at Magic Teaparty is not the same thing as being "skilled" at D&D--and it's possible for players can be great at one, both, or neither.

I'm not sure that mechanics rewarding players for being good at Magic Teaparty are automatically bad, but I think it's definitely arguable that they're testing a set of skills that some people who nonetheless claim to enjoy TTRPGs just don't have, with the classic example being the tongue-tied guy who wants to play the party's diplomat by maxing out his diplomancy skill. So while we could all be playing a game like Amber Diceless or a story game like Once Upon a Time, the group that I regularly game with definitely gets into D&D as an exercise in tactical thinking and creative problem solving as opposed to "who here could win an Oscar for their performance," so any system we play with has to be complex enough to stay interesting for a bunch of comp-sci types and robust enough that it doesn't split in half when they start approaching it like a math problem.

Hence my question at the beginning of the thread--what skills should TTRPGs be testing? And if you're going to test something like "acting talent" or "ability to entertain the other players at the table," how do you do it, from a design perspective?
Last edited by Archmage on Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
P.C. Hodgell wrote:That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.
shadzar wrote:i think the apostrophe is an outdated idea such as is hyphenation.
User avatar
Chamomile
Prince
Posts: 4632
Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 10:45 am

Post by Chamomile »

All systems support being good at Magical Tea Party once you're past the edges of what mechanics cover, because being good at Magical Tea Party means abusing the Wank Power Theorum for all its worth: The better an actor/storyteller you are and the more forceful your personality, the more insane crap you can get away with before other players and/or the GM start warming up the IGNORE Cannons (incidentally, these terms are brought over from the NationStates RP forums, who have turned Magical Tea Party into a science).
User avatar
tzor
Prince
Posts: 4266
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by tzor »

Gx1080 wrote:But most people just play "cooler" versions of themselves.
I generaly never play a cooler version of myself. I generally prefer to play a lot of "not me" characters. (For example, being tall, I used to play Dwarves a lot of the time, or halflings.) I also tend to play tred and true sterotypes that don't even vaguely resemble me. (Mind you I tend to mix and mash them up massivley. I once played a halfling modeled after Cyrano de Bergerac, but then again we had some odd characters in that game.)
User avatar
Chamomile
Prince
Posts: 4632
Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 10:45 am

Post by Chamomile »

Look, all these anecdotes about how you never play characters similar to yourselves are cute, but they aren't a compelling argument for anything.
fectin
Prince
Posts: 3760
Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2010 1:54 am

Post by fectin »

Chamomile wrote:Look, all these anecdotes about how you never play characters similar to yourselves are cute, but they aren't a compelling argument for anything.
Whereas your completely unsubstantiated assertion is?
User avatar
Chamomile
Prince
Posts: 4632
Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 10:45 am

Post by Chamomile »

fectin wrote:
Chamomile wrote:Look, all these anecdotes about how you never play characters similar to yourselves are cute, but they aren't a compelling argument for anything.
Whereas your completely unsubstantiated assertion is?
Quote me the post where I asserted something.
User avatar
JigokuBosatsu
Prince
Posts: 2549
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2010 10:36 pm
Location: The Portlands, OR
Contact:

Post by JigokuBosatsu »

tussock wrote: and "my bow is also a spiked chain".
Fuck yeah!
Omegonthesane wrote:a glass armonica which causes a target city to have horrific nightmares that prevent sleep
JigokuBosatsu wrote:so a regular glass armonica?
You can buy my books, yes you can. Out of print and retired, sorry.
Post Reply