4E: what can we expect from SAGA and Bo9S?

[Prak]

1187309268[/unixtime]]

1187304432[/unixtime]]well this is interesting:

hell, maybe we'll all be lucky and WotC have bought K and Frank and will be putting out Tome style stuff. That'd be nice... but unlikely...

Frank said in another thread (I forget which) that several employees in WotC hate his guts, so if this is true, then it is highly unlikely.

well, I didn't say it was likely, the opposite, in fact, but it'd be nice... besides, employees don't make those kind of decisions, and employees can always be fired...

Though I'd actually not be too surprised if WotC made Frank and K an offer...

[erik]

Hrm, I actually wouldn't mind getting rid of AoO's.
They slow down the game with little benefit, placing way too much emphasis on tactical movement which takes time away from actualy doing shit.

[Prak]

1187309440[/unixtime]]

Different weapons being good at different things is the win.
Different classes being able to use small subsets of weapon types is the lose.

Hint. Based on SAGA. ie, d20 Modern.

Therefore that axe fighter/sword fighter specialist training shit they are talking about are CRAP TALENT TREES, like the ones first "pioneered" in d20 Modern, then recently "tested" in SAGA since no one actually played d20 modern...

That's bad news right out the gate.

Also their racial ability trash looks like bad news too. See now I like the IDEA of racial abilities tradable for some other ability set for various reasons. But since we are talking racial abilities tradable for feats, and lets face it fucking talents its going to be bad news. Unless talents are less dumb and feats are more plentiful (and also less dumb).

No, looks to me like they are leaning to a d20modern model of limited mediocre non scaling feat and talent options which totally bone you unless you cherry pick like a bitch.

When they SHOULD be moving toward a Frank and K model like ROW feats and demonic spheres with easy to choose nice option sets that automatically scale with level and remain relevant forever.

I know it sounds pessimistic but reading between the lines thats what I'm seeing.

I would not be surprised at all. I really wouldn't. But I'm seriously hoping they won't do that. Who wants to join me in a compassion ritual over the web to exorcise our will upon the universe so they don't do that?

[RandomCasualty]

Yeah I really hope they drop the concept of talents, or at least make them not be totally awful.

[cthulhu]

30 levels means that they may redo the spell system.

[Tokorona]

It was briefly on the wotc section

[Leress]

I see that they are making the races like Dawn Forge did, with racial talents and stat boosts. Why do I have a feeling that when I see the new "20 level" races, I am going to slap someone hard.

[Tokorona]

I was under the impression it would be seperate from class progression?

[Leress]

1187317831[/unixtime]]I was under the impression it would be seperate from class progression?

I believe this also. Dawn Forge did the same thing. It used racial talents and transformations that happened along side with class progress, except it when up to level 10 and everyone got slapped with a ECLA (up to +2).

[PhoneLobster]

I was under the impression it would be seperate from class progression?

The bit someone quoted said that most abilities now fell on level 1 (likely racial abilities as they exist, or maybe level 1 only feats/talent options).

That some would be racial feats (like, well, racial feats)

And that there were too many later abilities competing with them after level 10 or so. (Suggesting they will lean towards a talent substitute option like Force talents in SAGA or racial substitution levels).

All of that sucks, but it is the most obvious conclusion to draw from the quoted passages about "20 level races". Not to say its certain, for the love of god don't let it be certain.

If they instead got race/monster shit ALONE right it might make the system almost worth it.

But I ain't holding my breath.

[K]

I expect they are going to "create" a class system that looks a lot like Earthdawn. I mean, the basic idea of feats was a straight cut and past from Earthdawn, and now that everyone will have meaningful class-specific feats as their only class features will mean its Earthdawn for really reals.

Which is fine by me. Earthdawn was the most awesome system I only played once.

[erik]

Well, I was gonna start a new thread on what to expect in 4e not just from saga and Bo9S (especially since I know very little about those books), but also from all the "play testing" that WotC has put out the last couple years. Since this thread encompasses some of those, I'll just try to open up the topic to discuss what mechanics have been written in the last year or two that we presume were being "playtested" for 4e.


Warlocks and reserve feats for spells seem like obvious inclusions. I just hope they hand out reserve feats for free if you have the requisite spell ability. You can cast fire spells? Bam! You can light small fires as much as you want. I'm hoping for spell trees where the lowest tiers are at will, and the higher tiers are maybe 1 to a few times per battle, maybe needing a couple minutes to rest between top tier spells.

From the designer's mouths we've heard that they are apparently quite proud of alternate class features for races, so that's a given. I'm not sure I'm wild about it since it means a healthy bit of cherry-picking will be going on, but I've grown so used to it in RPGs that it doesn't bother me much anymore.

The magic item compendium seems glutted with items that have per day usage. If that's an indication of where they want to go with abilities.... ominous.

Tactical feats seem like they're going to be featured prominently in the future. It's at least a move in a proper direction (akin to Races of War's scaling feats). My big worry is that it's still just more cherry picking since some tactical feats have one outrageously good ability, and most just suck. WotC designers haven't really displayed an ability to discern between those really great abilities and the ones that suck horribly, so that's a concern.

I'm imagining that Incarnum and true name crap isn't going to see the light of day.

Skill tricks are a likely bit to be included. They are sort of a good idea, assuming that the skill system actually gets a huge overhaul wherein it isn't off the random number generator from level 1 on.

Weapon feats, like tactical feats sure seem to be included with much more emphasis from level 1 on. These might be more like Bo9S manuevers though.



Things that I doubt they've figured out for 4e since no real indication of "play testing" has shown up:

*Dissecting character wealth from character power
*Monsters playing by the same generation rules as characters (and that would make them interchangable for purposes of play)
*Reducing the dozen bonus types down to just a few, to cut down on broken stacking

[Catharz]

I doubt that anything like skill tricks will be found in the core book. It's much more lucrative to add those on in later 'must have' supplements.

[Tokorona]

there are some rumblings that 4e psionics may be out shortly after core..

[Cielingcat]

I predict that, to make up for the obvious suckage of Weapon Focus, the "Weapon Focus" talent in 4e will give a +2 bonus to attack.

[RandomCasualty]

1187322249[/unixtime]]
From the designer's mouths we've heard that they are apparently quite proud of alternate class features for races, so that's a given. I'm not sure I'm wild about it since it means a healthy bit of cherry-picking will be going on, but I've grown so used to it in RPGs that it doesn't bother me much anymore.

Yeah, as long as they don't deliberately go into the thing with the intention that they're going to promote "rules mastery" and therefore there are going to be some choices that are deliberately suboptimal.

The magic item compendium seems glutted with items that have per day usage. If that's an indication of where they want to go with abilities.... ominous.

Oh god... yeah they need to drop that stupid X/day paradigm... badly...

The more I play D&D, the more I absolutely despise the per day systems.

[Voss]

I actually don't mind it much for magic items. Done right in can juggle between expendable pieces of crap and things that are just wildly broken if they're constant (or even in wands).

It just sucks when its character abilities- sucks so bad I can't even come up with a decent real world analogy.

So, here's a source of amusement. The official 4E Wish List thread on the wizard boards-
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.ph ... [br]Here's a tip, for all the morons who are going to post on it. August to May. Its pretty much done. Your wishes mean nothing.

And, hmm. Faster gameplay. Most ominous... I foresee the craptastic Saga skill system.

And I apologize for the link. I started reading it, and the sheer mass of stupidity is overwhelming.
Question though, when did Incarnum get fellatio-bots?

And someone needs to justify 30 levels to me. The system is badly fvcked at 20. You want to add more crap that breaks the system over its knee?

Edited for extra ranting

[RandomCasualty]

1187332108[/unixtime]]
And someone needs to justify 30 levels to me. The system is badly fvcked at 20. You want to add more crap that breaks the system over its knee?

Yeah, wtf is up with that? I hope they're not serious about that...

They should cut the levels to 10, not make it 30.

[virgil]

I wonder how much they're going to mess with the rules as it's playtested (since they sure as well won't let ANY negative playtest information be revealed), or are they effectively just going to milk people for money over the next 9 months by offering tidbits of a finished product with their online Dragon & Dungeon magazines.

AKA, is this next nine months just going to be the printers tweaking the color scheme and layout *just* right while WotC whips the fanboys into a drooling, money-fisted frenzy?

[Voss]

Yes, frankly. I'm not sure how much time they'll need to print up enough inventory before release, but I don't think that the 'fans' are going to have that much playtesting input before its locked down. And , frankly looking at the wishlist thread (and I wish I hadn't because my eyes are bleeding), there are so many wildly varied opinions on what should be, that isn't any point in listening to the frothing horde of unwashed morons. Particularly since, for a disturbingly large group, all they want is planescape back.

Its worth noting that there is a class preview book coming out in December.

http://www.amazon.com/Wizards-Presents- ... ][br]Maybe its a history and crap, but I think things will be pretty well locked by that particular money-making scam's print date.


Its a weird thing, I'm looking forward to 4th, but I know there is going to be a lot I won't like (particularly if they take too much from Saga). Mostly because they don't have the guts to make the major, fundamental changes they need to get a workable system out of the game. But only because they're too worried about the whining they'd get.

[RandomCasualty]

1187334703[/unixtime]]I wonder how much they're going to mess with the rules as it's playtested (since they sure as well won't let ANY negative playtest information be revealed), or are they effectively just going to milk people for money over the next 9 months by offering tidbits of a finished product with their online Dragon & Dungeon magazines.

AKA, is this next nine months just going to be the printers tweaking the color scheme and layout *just* right while WotC whips the fanboys into a drooling, money-fisted frenzy?

I'll be surprised if they play test it at all.

[virgil]

And now I contemplate the idea of 4e being leaked and getting a real idea of whether to even consider this system, as anything they put out in preparation is going to be some of the most biased and spin-factored crap out there.

[MrWaeseL]

Do you guys think there will be a 4.5?

Do you think the designers designed monster under flawed assumptions like in 3e and need to come back to them at some point in the future?

[Username17]

1187354039[/unixtime]]Do you guys think there will be a 4.5?

There will be a major overhaul of the basic rules partway through before they call it fifth edition. But that's nothing new. Dungeons and Dragons had the original pamphlets, the Greyhawk rules, Red Box Rules, and Blue Box rules - all of which were basically unplayable with one another. Advanced Dungeons & Dragons underwent the Unearthed Arcana overhaul which made the game unrecognizable. 2nd Edition AD&D had the original, the "Revised Rules", the "Player's Options: Skills and Powers" rules, and those things were completely unplayable together. The 3rd edition made a "3.5" that was designed by different people and was only nominally playable with the original.

So do I think that they wll attempt to resell the core books during 4th edition by making a slightly different version that makes you get the core books again? Hellz yeah I do! They've done that for all four previous editions of the game. Hell, on the face of it, "4th edition" is actually the fifth named edition of D&D. It's more like the thirteenth distinct edition of the game in any real sense of the term. Of course they'll throw a couple of curve balls in there to sell more books.

Do you think the designers designed monster under flawed assumptions like in 3e and need to come back to them at some point in the future?

Yes. Do you think that will be the reason that they redseign shit? Absolutely not.

And now I contemplate the idea of 4e being leaked and getting a real idea of whether to even consider this system, as anything they put out in preparation is going to be some of the most biased and spin-factored crap out there.

Really? Because I could tell from the 3.5 preview spin-doctoring that they had a pile of poop on a platter. Haste, Harm, and Hold? Are you fvcking kidding me?

In this write up, the only thing they seemed to learn is that Polymorph is bad and warriors need maneuvers. But it still seems like they are going to trot out warriors as Diablo II characters (I am a Jabazon, so I have multi-thrust), while Wizards are still probably playing Battlefield Artillery.

-Username17

[Voss]

Huh. So, according to an article over at Inquest, much streamlining (Surprise) is going on, including-

grappling
revamped spell recovery rules (not ditching resting entirely, but in-game recovery)

Someone's getting cut. A 'core' race is getting dumped to 'later expansion' books. And the tiefling is taking its place- emo kids rejoice!
Since the half-elf was specifically referenced in the races article, I suspect either the half-orc or gnome.
And some classes may fall out the back of the book.

'not a huge jump' but wizard's recommends starting new campaigns...

And something 'similar' to ToB manuevers is being adopted for 4E.
Coupled with the weapon thing (or maybe it *is* the weapon thing), I'm vaguely optimistic that it won't totally suck.