[Politics] Abortion Failure Megathread

[Orion]

Sex is political. Babies are economic. The only real reason for separate topics is so that the trolls can only derail one at a time.

[RobbyPants]

Getting back to abortion. Preborn Children Lobby on Capitol Hill

Brandi Swindell from Stanton Healthcare in Boise, Idaho, explained it this way:

“We are taking a brand new, state-of-the-art ultrasound machine to a Congressional Auditorium on Capitol Hill in which we are going to invite all the members of Congress to come to this presentation where they are going to see — in real time — preborn children in their mothers’ womb… Even when it’s five and six weeks old — the size of a grain of rice — you can still pick up that beating heart. And it is so powerful as you see the baby grow in the womb, and you can start to make out the fingers and the toes and the head and the little body forming.”

What a nice appeal to emotion.

"Think about the rice sized children!"

[Psychic Robot]

>the black illegitimacy rate
>illegitimacy rate
>illegitimacy

Every birth is legitimate unless you are legally banned from having children (e.g. One Child Policy in China). You are a fuckhead and your source is a fuckhead. Congrats.

lol sperging over words

sorry broski established definitions defy your emotional reasoning

The recent London riots were pretty fucking multi-racial, actually. Britain in general tends to have *more* problems with its depressed white underclass than with its depressed black underclass.

yeah they weren't.

[tzor]

What a nice appeal to emotion.

Everyone else does it.




"The Greek philosopher Aristotle divided the means of persuasion, appeals, into three categories--Ethos, Pathos, Logos." There is nothing wrong with a little pathos in your argument. It's not my fault pre-born babies are so gosh darn cute ... I think that's evolution's fault.

[RadiantPhoenix]

If they can do that, can pro-abortion people bring in women who have lost their jobs or otherwise suffered hardship from getting pregnant? How about the corpses of women who died from pregnancy? The unwanted children in need of adoption?

[angelfromanotherpin]

See the thing is, this isn't even vaguely a new argument. It's the exact same argument Tzor brings every time: 'fetuses are people.'

And no matter how many times we go down that road with him, even if we grant his premise in the face of all legal precedent, biblical text, and biological science, we still have the argument he has never answered: one person has no right to another person's body tissues.

Faced with that, he might dissemble or change the subject, mostly he shuts up about it for a while. But then he comes back again with the exact same angle that still fails in the face of the assertion of the most basic property rights. It's like having an argument with the guy from Memento.

Maybe Tzor needs a helpful tattoo?

[Gx1080]

@RadiantPhoenix

The last one doesn't help you. You can ask those kids if they would rather be dead because mommy killed them. Go ahead.

Two reasons to oppose abortion.

First, Infanticide (let's call a spade a spade) was a common practice of pagan cultures:

http://christiancadre.org/member_contri ... icide.html

Pagans in the Roman Empire had a very different view about the value of human life than we do today. Infanticide was legal and encouraged in ancient Greece and Rome. Other pagan societies, such as the Carthaginians, went so far as to kill their children as religious sacrifices to their gods. According to Plutarch, the Carthaginians "offered up their own children, and those who had no children would buy little ones from poor people and cut their throats as if they were so many lambs of young birds; meanwhile the mothers stood by without a tear or moan." Moralia 2.17. Indeed, according to Wikipedia, "Infanticide was common in all well studied ancient cultures, including those of ancient Greece, Rome, India, China, and Japan."

Second, statistical cheating:

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/the-doctor ... epage=true

According to the way statistics are calculated in Canada, Germany, and Austria, a premature baby weighing <500g is not considered a living child.

But in the U.S., such very low birth weight babies are considered live births. The mortality rate of such babies — considered “unsalvageable” outside of the U.S. and therefore never alive — is extraordinarily high; up to 869 per 1,000 in the first month of life alone. This skews U.S. infant mortality statistics.

When Canada briefly registered an increased number of low weight babies previously omitted from statistical reporting, the infant mortality rose from 6.1 per 1,000 to 6.4 per thousand in just one year.

Angry screaming on 3...2...1.

[RadiantPhoenix]

@RadiantPhoenix

The last one doesn't help you.

This is plausibly true. That wasn't very well thought-out.

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/the-doctor ... epage=true

According to the way statistics are calculated in Canada, Germany, and Austria, a premature baby weighing <500g is not considered a living child.

But in the U.S., such very low birth weight babies are considered live births. The mortality rate of such babies — considered “unsalvageable” outside of the U.S. and therefore never alive — is extraordinarily high; up to 869 per 1,000 in the first month of life alone. This skews U.S. infant mortality statistics.

When Canada briefly registered an increased number of low weight babies previously omitted from statistical reporting, the infant mortality rose from 6.1 per 1,000 to 6.4 per thousand in just one year.

Angry screaming on 3...2...1.

I... don't even get what point this is supposed to make. Could you elaborate?

[Orion]

If you object to infanticide, you should be in favor of abortion. Abortion is very good at preventing infanticide. It's also not clear to me that infanticide is a bad thing, but that's a separate argument.

[Kaelik]

Wait What?

We should be against infanticide because pagans did it?

Pagans also ate food. Can you stop doing that for me GX?

[Whatever]

First, Infanticide (let's call a spade a spade) was a common practice of pagan cultures

They were also known for other horrific crimes against humanity, such as farming. I guess we should stop growing food, since the pagans did it?

[Count Arioch the 28th]

I think that the world would be better off with some more pagan concepts.

Imagine how different life would be if the laws were based on "Serve the chief and be rewarded!" instead of "Serve your God without thought, and expect no reward! Even asking for one is to be punished!"

I'm not an expert, but I think a lot of our problems stem from the fact that the people in charge think they need to be served by the peasants or else instead of having people serve them willingly because they were generous and rewarded exemplary behavior.

[DSMatticus]

Could you elaborate?

He can't. There is nothing there that is even tangentially relevant to his position or the topic of abortion as a whole. Gx is all around a shitty evaluator of facts, in that he has no idea what they mean and he just throws out the ones that seem bad to him and then blames them on things he doesn't like.

Not to mention, his sources are idiots:

the infant mortality rose from 6.1 per 1,000 to 6.4 per thousand in just one year.

What seems wrong about the bolded part? Oh yes; that measurement is completely time-independent. That is not a number that will rise due to time. Are they an idiot who has no idea what they're talking, or are they trying to make this sound scarier than it is?

It's also worth noting the article chose Canada as a comparison point, and Canada isn't even in the top 30 (according to the CIA world factbook, anyway). They picked Canada solely because it's something America throws under the broad category of "socialism," and it happens to be a relatively shitty example of socialized medicine. So they've demonstrated that we might move up from 45 to 35 if we did our accounting differently. But you know what? That's still really fucking shitty.

But they haven't even demonstrated that; nothing in the entire article is cited. Absolutely nothing. Now, some of it is true, like the fact that different measuring standards exist. That was so true the CDC did a report on it, and their conclusion was that it was not statistically significant enough to put us in any better position. And I will take "CDC report" over "blog post with no citations" every time. I would even go so far as to say anyone who doesn't is a moron or a nutjob.

Nothing but irrelevant smoke and mirrors; and that's not even touching the 'christiancadre' and what the fuck abortion has to do with infanticide. SLIPPERY SLOPE! FIRST GAYS, THEN GOATS, OH THE HUMANITY.

[Psychic Robot]

SLIPPERY SLOPE! FIRST GAYS, THEN GOATS, OH THE HUMANITY.

implying this isn't true

[Neeeek]

It's not my fault pre-born babies are so gosh darn cute ... I think that's evolution's fault.

You think fetuses are cute? Um...okay. They look more like Sci-fi aliens who will eat you than "cute" to most people.

[Orion]

DSMatiucs: I'm pretty sure the point was that .3 per thousand per year is supposed to be a (change in infant mortality rates)/(time).

[DSMatticus]

DSMatiucs: I'm pretty sure the point was that .3 per thousand per year is supposed to be a (change in infant mortality rates)/(time).

But it's not a (change in infant morality rates)/(time), because the increase is not .3 per thousand per year. It's just .3 per thousand. When they used measurement X, they got 6.1. When they used measurement Y, they got 6.4. If they use measurement Y again next year and all else remains equal, they won't get 6.7, they'll get 6.4 again. Continuing to use measurement Y for future measurements will not lead to higher and higher results, it'll lead to the same result over and over until something else changes.

The article might as well been talking about measuring pencils, and said, "if we include the eraser, the length rose from 10 centimeters to 11 centimers in just one measurement." See how weird that is?

[RadiantPhoenix]

"if we include the eraser, the length rose from 10 centimeters to 11 centimers in just one measurement."

That's bad news for pencil manufacturers.

[RadiantPhoenix]

"if we include the eraser, the length rose from 10 centimeters to 11 centimers in just one measurement."

That's bad news for pencil manufacturers.

[Psychic Robot]

not sure what gx was saying with that bit but it's usually brought up in health care debates because the u.s. has a higher infant mortality rate because of how we measure births (probably due to bigoted xtians and their baby worship)

[tzor]

If they can do that, can pro-abortion people bring in women who have lost their jobs or otherwise suffered hardship from getting pregnant? How about the corpses of women who died from pregnancy? The unwanted children in need of adoption?

Actually they do that but in a positive way ... ever the the "Every Child a Wanted Child" bumper stickers?

(I could also translate that to "Every Unwanted Child is Dead Meat" but meh.)

[tzor]

See the thing is, this isn't even vaguely a new argument. It's the exact same argument Tzor brings every time: 'fetuses are people.'

Actually I thought this argument was "fetusus are so gosh awful cute and adorable." Like puppies. How can you kill puppies? Or kittens?

One person has no right to another person's body tissues.

Or the right to establish a domicile on someone's posessions?

So you mean the owners of the priate park where the occupy wall street protestors are holding up have the right to "abort" them from their property? (Watch the liberals waffle on that one.)

Maybe Tzor needs a helpful tattoo?

I don't do tattos. If I did it would be the philosopher Horton holding his dust speck with the words, "A person's a person, no matter how small!"

[Prak]

stupid phone...

[RadiantPhoenix]

So you mean the owners of the priate park where the occupy wall street protestors are holding up have the right to "abort" them from their property? (Watch the liberals waffle on that one.)

I was under the impression that it wasn't a private park.

In any case, your comparison implies things that are false.
* You imply that the right of a person to their own organs is no greater than the 'right' of a person to an external material good or geographical location.
* You imply that killing people who could be removed nonlethally is equivalent to lethally removing something that can't be removed nonlethally.

[Kaelik]

Or the right to establish a domicile on someone's posessions?

So you mean the owners of the priate park where the occupy wall street protestors are holding up have the right to "abort" them from their property? (Watch the liberals waffle on that one.)

You should probably actually look up trespass law before you start whining shit like this.

If I set up domicile on one of McCain's properties, and he doesn't notice for X years (which he wouldn't) and I made clear that I was using and living on his property (say by building a house, and fencing it in) then his property would belong to me.

So clearly, you can totally make domicile on someone else's possessions if they don't sue you for trespass.

Since the Occupy Wall Street crowds have not been sued for trespass, I guess they can totally keep doing it.

Unlike hobo's who steal my organs, in which case, I take my organs right back, and then they die.