Fighters, "Fighters," and Fighters!

[darkmaster]

So as you may remember I'm joining a level 12 PBP game. Well I've finally gotten my character submitted, having gotten every thing approved before hand and even PMing the GM my CS so he could sign off on it before I submitted it to the OoC.

Well I'd decided to play an evil Tome Fighter 11/Vurcar 1 (Vurcar is a homeberw monstrous humanoid race, nothing too fancy beside powerful build and flight) and immediately one of the players freaks out because fighters aren't supposed to have class abilities! I knew she would, which is why I had cleared it with the GM before hand. Now she proceeded to list all the tome fighter's class abilities in a big old wall of text, and I explained each one and why it wasn't so bad. To which she responded that well maybe the class abilities weren't so bad but the feats were super broken.

After that I decided we really didn't need more drama in the OoC, she does like her drama. Anyway, so at that point we started hashing out tome feats, her arguments basically revolved around "tome feats are over powered because they're better than regular feats," and "these feats let you do allot more damage together," (almost all of my feats are combat feats) and mine were in the tune of "Tome feats are supposed to be better than regular feats because regular feats are ass," and "yes that would be the point of choosing two feats that work well together and only increase combat ability."

Eventually she said that her character with combat feats could take down any equal CR encounter in a single turn, and when asked for proof, she produced a damage range and said that any monster she hit, which, she asserted, she always would, would be killed in a single blow. When I explained that didn't even begin to constitute proof and that if she wanted to prove her point she'd need to run though a ton of different scenarios taking into account a multitude of different variables she ran though a single encounter with a pair of demons Oyti.... I don't remember the name. The point is she attacked one and didn't kill it and it ran away and then the other one ran away just because I guess. I suppose that's fair enough, demons do that. But then she wanted to say that she had been going so easy that she COULD have taken both in the same round despite not having been able to take one in a single round. During this time, by the way, she hardly used any of the feats she'd chosen from the combat feats, and instead relied on her class abilities, so I'm not sure why she thought it would prove combat feats are OP despite having only actually used one.

The upshot of all this being that this argument, like many others, has left me with a bad taste in my mouth. Are Tome feats actually OP, specifically the ones that let you crank up your DPR? And can the Tome Fighter be used in the same campaign as the tome of battle material without completely outshining the ToB character?

[icyshadowlord]

Short answer: No.

Long answer: No, they are not overpowered.
They might seem overpowered, but that is most likely due to the fact that every other player on the table has taken all the possible trap options (or at least half of them).

[Kaelik]

It's quite possible to construct various Tome characters that are overpowered.

You probably don't have one, and neither does she.

[darkmaster]

She doesn't have a tome character at all.

[Fuchs]

I think, from the way the questions are worded, that the player in question has a Tome of Battle: Book of 9 swords character.

[Kaelik]

She doesn't have a tome character at all.

If you have a bunch of Tome feats, you are still a Tome character. But yes, Warblades with Tome feats are even less likely to be overpowered than Tome Fighters/Samurai/Barbarians.

[Username17]

At 12th level, things are incredibly divergent. A character who goes Sword and Board with the Weapon Specialization tree is seriously handing out an average of 17 points of damage per hit and is unlikely to hit anything more than twice a turn. A ride-by-griffin lancer pouncer on the other hand probably hits at least twice a round and does 56 damage per hit. And he's more mobile and harder to kill. If our sword and boarder was Elusive target specced, he'd do slightly less damage per hit, but he'd attack four times a turn, rob enemies of move actions, and negate about half of all incoming damage.

Holding up two warriors at 12th level and showing that they are wildly out of scale with one another does not prove anything. We don't expect two wizard spells to be equal in power. And while Wizard spells are stand alone (casting a fail spell this round does not preclude casting a battle winning spell next round), Fighters are based on whole-character builds. So if you haven't made a well greased machine of interlocking feats, class features, and equipment, a 3.5 warrior is pile of worthless suck after about level 4.

If someone says "Your build is really good!" the correct answer is "Yeah. So what? Is it as good as a Wizard who fills all their slots with Planar Binding and Charm Monster?"

-Username17

[Psychic Robot]

tome feats individually are not overpowered. they are very strong but they are not overpowered. now the tome classes overall? yes, they're overpowered, and yes your fighter is overpowered. but the feats themselves are not.

[Leper]

Can your Tome character

[*]be nearly as effective in combat without caster-created items as he is with them? (i.e. bypass the usual non-caster limitation where your character relies on a caster making something for them to emulate a caster's worst choices in options, just so your character can contribute)
[*]polymorph/fly/teleport over long distances and semi-reliably?
[*]bypass any skill use with an automatic success?
[*]see the future?
[*]reliably summon several allies at once that have better combat ability than he does as well as some minor magical abilities?
[*]get an in-game answer to any question?
[*]"get out of plot free" with an ability?
[*]bypass ability restraints and limitations alltogether by crafting cheap objects to store extra uses?

If he can do all of these things, then I'd say he's about on-par for 12th level. If he's missing anything, then I'd say he's way behind the curve, but probably just doesn't suck as much as the other player wants for them to suck, because that's a lot less than they're used to them sucking.

[Fuchs]

Do consider though that the usual wizard player is not as optimized as that, and probably compares DPR since that's what they think Direct Damage and Area Damage is what wizards are made for.

The "I do great DPR, but I am weak otherwise and easily killed" glass cannon wizard view right out of various MMOGs.

[Leper]

Do consider though that the usual wizard player is not as optimized as that, and probably compares DPR since that's what they think Direct Damage and Area Damage is what wizards are made for.

The "I do great DPR, but I am weak otherwise and easily killed" glass cannon wizard view right out of various MMOGs.

The main difference being that if the wizard player wakes up one day and realizes "why am I wasting 5 spells trying to wear down one opponent when I can bypass that altogether and take out several opponents with one," the wizard player does not need to completely recreate their character because their abilities are based wholly on unchangeable character resources that are permanently expended.

I.e. a wizard built from level 1-12 for damage that suddenly realizes "man, fuck this. Save or Die is the shiznit!" need only pick up a few spells, and it's likely they have one or two already. He won't be as great as if he'd spent every feat pumping up save thresholds or specializing in something else, but he's still more than functional.

A "fighter" built from 1-12 to perform a specific way that realizes any other option would have been better is quite properly fucked.

Additionally, I don't know too many wizard players (even the newest of the new with practical waterfalls cascading behind their ears) who haven't managed to (even if only accidentally) pick up a really good combat spell as well as some incredibly useful utility.

[fectin]

Your question is bad. First tell me what power level you're supposed to be at.

If you're playing an all monk game, then of course tome feats are overpowered. If you're playing optimized wizards, then tome feats are simply less underpowered.

However, unlike the wizard, it's pretty obvious when you're sandbagging yourself, so other people are going to notice.

[FatR]

Can your Tome character

A fucking wizard likely can't do all of that by 12 level, particularly if meant for an actual game and not proving a point.

Answering OP, yes Tome characters are generally overpowered, because Tomes used full casters as their balance benchmark. Most of them, if optimized, like, at all, can be even minimally challenged only by cream of the crop of MMs, using the most murderous tactics possible, and every published adventure I've studied will crumble before them so easily it isn't even funny.

[hogarth]

The upshot of all this being that this argument, like many others, has left me with a bad taste in my mouth. Are Tome feats actually OP, specifically the ones that let you crank up your DPR?

Yes, they're overpowered compared to non-Tome combat feats. That's the entire point.

In your particular situation, I think that shoehorning a bunch of homebrew stuff into a GM's game without getting the buy-in of the other players is in poor taste. In my opinion, the allowable sources for character creation should be clearly stated well in advance for everyone to see, not as a last-minute surprise buried in one dude's character sheet.

[Leper]

Can your Tome character

A fucking wizard likely can't do all of that by 12 level, particularly if meant for an actual game and not proving a point.

Answering OP, yes Tome characters are generally overpowered, because Tomes used full casters as their balance benchmark. Most of them, if optimized, like, at all, can be even minimally challenged only by cream of the crop of MMs, using the most murderous tactics possible, and every published adventure I've studied will crumble before them so easily it isn't even funny.

Are we talking about a 3.5 wizard or a wizard in some version of a game that i'm not aware of?

See, "Tome" said D&D 3e to me...

A level 12 3e wizard (at a glance) with an Int of no more than 16 (I use this as an absolute base--I think we can agree that the wizard is unlikely to have an int score this low.)
5x 1st level spells
5x 2nd level spells
5x 3rd level spells
3x 4th level spells
3x 5th level spells
2x 6th level spells

Not to mention the ability to scribe scrolls on the cheap for any utility or uncommon use spells that he doesn't wish to waste a spell slot on. He can of course spend his bonus feats to get craft wand or the like to further improve his ability to completely fucking ignore his spell slot limitations, and outside of casting stat boosting items, these are a genuinely great way to spend your cash since they effectively remove the only real limit to your class abilities.

I'll let you look up the spell list for effects, but to give you an idea: fighter is obviated by summon monster or just using SoD spells. Rogue is obviated by scrolls or wands of knock and using tenser's floating disk to carry around a 50lb log. Also, logs won't steal your precious loot. Clerics are still somewhat necessary, but they're full casters so they will genuinely pull their own weight anyways. You had Scry/Buff/teleport at level 10, if not sooner.

[Gx1080]

The short version of the argument is:

"Well, when a wizard breaks the game is all peachy, but when someone else does it is bad because.....?"

Which, frankly, is a very good question.

[Kaelik]

Leper, you are kinda dumb.

Crafting items isn't free. It costs money (and XP). Money is valuable. Money can be used to buy teleporting and seeing the future and other shit no problem.

It costs less money to pay a guy in town to Cast Divination and then Cast Sending and tell you what the answer was, and do this every day, than it does to craft a scroll of Divination, and it doesn't eat up your time.

Telling me that someone can spend money and XP to obtain something they could have spent less money for is a waste of time.

The Fighter has no per day uses on his killing things better than you abilities (The Tome Fighter obviously) and he can also spend money to teleport and see the future and fly as well or better than you.

Wizards are cool because they can do those things without spending money, not because they can spend money to do those things more times per day.

Unfortunately, Wizards have to actually give up being even close to as useful in combat in exchange for this compared to a Tome Fighter.

Except of Course for Necromantic Minions, because for some reason somebody thought that was a good idea. I have no idea why.

[darkmaster]

For the record the first thing I said in the tread was "You should all consider looking the Tome Material" the paraphrase, and in helping some of the newer players to optimize their characters, we have eladrins and well equipped inevitables in our party so they were going to need it regardless of me, I pointed them to the tome feats, and directed the party ranger to the Tome Ranger on the wiki. So it's not as though I pulled this at the last second.

[Leper]

Leper, you are kinda dumb.

After reading many of your posts, I take this to mean "you disagree with me."

Coming from you, I assure you that I am thoroughly complimented, my good sir.

Crafting items isn't free. It costs money (and XP). Money is valuable. Money can be used to buy teleporting and seeing the future and other shit no problem.

I do believe I specifically mentioned it cost money.

Also... if you're buying "teleporting and seeing the future and other shit no problem" then why not do it at half cost?

It costs less money to pay a guy in town to Cast Divination and then Cast Sending and tell you what the answer was, and do this every day, than it does to craft a scroll of Divination, and it doesn't eat up your time.

Yes, it does. I don't recall specifically saying otherwise.

Let me see if I did that by mistake.

Nope.

I did advocate making your own scrolls/wands for certain utility spells, and while I didn't specifically say "especially lower level ones that are incredibly cheap by comparison at 12th level" I didn't think I had to because I figured I would be addressing individuals who had some small grasp on the system.

Telling me that someone can spend money and XP to obtain something they could have spent less money for is a waste of time.

Yes, there are cheaper ways to get them, assuming your DM allows you to simply buy anything you want any time you want. Not every DM will. Most DMs, however, are not going to tell you "no you cannot use your class ability that is specifically outlined in the book as being yours to use."

Still, this seems to only agree with my statement that the wizard's primary limiting factor is easily bypassed, or that it is exceptionally helpful to do so. You seem to only be taking issue with the fact that I did not point out one (easily/perhaps commonly) DM-deniable way to do so in an even better fashion.

Way to... help me prove my point?

The Fighter has no per day uses on his killing things better than you abilities (The Tome Fighter obviously) and he can also spend money to teleport and see the future and fly as well or better than you.

You seem to be unfamiliar with how wands, scrolls and other magic items work. They're pretty much automatic for the wizard. The fighter requires pretty heavy investment on his part to do so, and several rolls. In addition, if the fighter is spending that much effort to emulate a caster, then why the fuck is he a fighter in the first place? Why even make it an option to be a fighter if your only way to be relevant is to depend on casters to make caster items for you so you can fake being a caster in a way that is worse than an actual caster?

Wizards are cool because they can do those things without spending money, not because they can spend money to do those things more times per day.

I cannot argue with your opinion on why you think wizards are cool.

I will say that the difference is far more fundamental than that.

Unfortunately, Wizards have to actually give up being even close to as useful in combat in exchange for this compared to a Tome Fighter.

I'm sorry, do Tome rules somehow enforce some additional rule that causes casting classes to lose access 90% of their spell list? Because otherwise I am confused as to how this statement can be true.

[Kaelik]

So... read the tomes and get back to me, because you pretty clearly don't actually know any Tome rules.

[Leper]

If your point isn't important enough for you to make it, why am I going to waste my time?

[Kaelik]

If your point isn't important enough for you to make it, why am I going to waste my time?

Because you are posting in a thread about a Tome Fighter, but you haven't read the Tome Fighter's class features, so if you want to take time to make huge completely wrong posts, you should probably take the time to read the Tome Fighter.

Alternatively, explain how the Fighter having just as good access to Divination as the Wizard somehow proves your point.

[Leper]

If your point isn't important enough for you to make it, why am I going to waste my time?

Because you are posting in a thread about a Tome Fighter, but you haven't read the Tome Fighter's class features, so if you want to take time to make huge completely wrong posts, you should probably take the time to read the Tome Fighter.

You have failed to show how my "huge wrong post" is in any way wrong.

I'll totally cop to the "huge" bit though. I am a bit of a talker.

Alternatively, explain how the Fighter having just as good access to Divination as the Wizard somehow proves your point.

Alternatively, kindly explain exactly what in the hell makes you think the fighter has "just as good access to Divination" AND why focusing on one specific part of a very broad selection of abilities at all disproves my point in total.

[fectin]

Your "huge wrong post" is wrong on its face. You badly need to familiarize yourself with the subject matter, because arguing that wizards are way more effective than Tome Fighters is ignorant.

As to the divination fighter, wizards spend spell slots to divine, making them less good in combat. Fighters spend gold, and are exactly the same in combat.

[Leper]

Your "huge wrong post" is wrong on its face. You badly need to familiarize yourself with the subject matter, because arguing that wizards are way more effective than Tome Fighters is ignorant.

No, your reading comprehension fails.


You'll notice that most of my conceits had nothing to do with combat effectiveness. Tome fighters are indeed effective in combat. I did not at any point say that they were not, and the closest thing i can see is mentioning that that wizards trying to work on a damage track are working entirely ineffectively.

As is common with all 3.5, the main problems with full casters are not that they "break combat." Yes, they can and do, and do so at a much earlier level than non-casters in most cases, but even without tomes there are ways to monkey with the rules and use certain specific builds to actually make a combat capable character at several levels--of course what this build needs to be also changes drastically at different levels without Tome builds, so... make of that what you will.

The biggest problems happen outside of combat with casters' easy, frequent and free (or at worst, cheap) access to "get out of plot free" cards. I see nothing about the Tome fighter that in any way mirrors this.

As to the divination fighter, wizards spend spell slots to divine, making them less good in combat. Fighters spend gold, and are exactly the same in combat.

So your argument is that if resource A is available for a fighter, and the fighter pays resource B for it, and the wizard can pay resource B or renewable resource C for it, then the fighter has completely equal access to it?

Even when A is not always going to be available for purchase with B but is always available with C?

The only other possible justification I could see is if you're pointing at "forge lore" where the fighter also makes his own wands and scrolls.

Which seems to be against the intent--of course we can go with a very broad interpretation and say any magic item is "equipment," by RAW. Of course since RAW only allow him to mimic caster level, not spell requirements or feat requirements, and he has no spell list of his own for which to meet the spell requirements, that kinda screws him too. But lets say that Forge Lore lets him make anything magical, and lets him mimic all the requirements. (despite not saying so)

I am a Tome fighter with a bag full of scrolls and a couple of wands! Huzzah!

WTF does he do with them? He has no spell list, no caster level for the purposes of item use, only crafting. He likely does not have the requisite ability score needed to use the item either.

So lets take a look at them scroll rules again:
If you're a caster with the spell on your class list, of the proper caster level, and have the requisite ability score, then you cast Read Magic or make one roll for Decipher Script (yes, even if you made the scroll) and fire off the scroll. If you are none of these things you need a DS roll and then three separate UMD checks to fake all of them. Wands ('spell trigger' rules) are a little easier, just needing one UMD check.

Tome fighter seems to have neither Decipher Script nort UMD on his skill list which means he's investing feats and skill points into those two skills--bumping up skill points from 2 to 6 does help alleviate this burden somewhat, but he's still stuck investing additional character resources into this that the wizard does not need to, at a higher cost for those resources, all to FAKE BEING A WORSE VERSION OF ANOTHER CLASS THAT THE PLAYER DIDN'T CHOOSE TO BE IN THE FIRST PLACE. That's not me yelling, that's me emphasizing.

Seriously. Read that sentence on more time and THINK about it. I didn't make a fighter, especially not a Tome fighter, so I could be a cut-rate flea-market wizard who got his wizarding degree in Tijuana. I made a Fighter because I wanted to be a fucking Fighter.

If we're not talking about making his own magic items, then again you're talking about the fighter being reliant on DM kindness to purchase the class abilities of another class for money (when that other class can spend that same money doing the same thing and then have those features PLUS other good stuff) and even that is going to be limited. he can buy a teleport, but he can't buy a teleport he can use any time he wants to.(without heavy feat/skill expenditures) he can buy a polymorph, but he can't buy a polymorph he can use any time he needs to. (without heavy feat/skill expenditures)

So, stop lecturing me on what you think I don't know and start addressing a fucking point or start making one. "I can pay for two spells to get the effect of one--which the wizard can also do and still have a fuck ton of his own free spells, but this still doesn't give me access to the massive heaps of utility the wizard still has," is not in-any-fucking-way "equal."

Is the Tome fighter "more equal" than his PHB cousin? Fuck yeah. Is he genuinely equal? Not just no, but "LULZNO. UR BAD AND SHUD FEEL BAD 4 MAKIN ME TYEP THIS."