Pathfinder Is Still Bad

[icyshadowlord]

I'll just go with whatever Kaelik said. Besides, pre-buffing as if you knew the Behir was there sounds like meta-gaming.
So either Shadow Balls cheats or he's just spouting bullshit. (and the latter theory seems far more plausible by this point)

[LR]

I am assuming that every EVERYONE has 14 Con (minimum) and a Con item. Because if you don't, you fail the check to determine whether or not you are an adventurer, and you die well before encountering the Behir.

Do you live in some kind of bizarro universe where every DM uses 32/25P point-buy and Wizards don't care about Dex?

Frenzied Berserker is a shitty class that doesn't do any of the things it is supposed to do and requires your party to babysit you even more than they would if you were a non FB BSF.

Except that you have Righteous Wrath, which turns off Frenzy's negative effects while Raging and is a perfectly valid feat to take if you're pulling bullshit from UA.

Battle Jump is just an inferior Leap Attack.

One that you can actually qualify for and obtain before sixth level.

Knowing a few power builds doesn't make you a min-maxer. Every post you make reveals that any optimizing skills you have are deficient for actual play. If you want to think of yourself as an optimizer, then you need to be able to get results in suboptimal starting conditions.

[GâtFromKI]

Monsters can't rake in the round they initiate the grapple. With +1 init, someone else should act before the behir maintain the grapple. What did I miss (*)?


(*) except for the fact that pathfinder's behir is awfully-written. It has 6 rake attacks, but the rake ability states that maintaining a grapple allow no more than 2 rake attacks. When does he get 6 rake attacks? Does he need to be barbarian 10 with the beast totem to use it?

[Psychic Robot]

shadow balls is a COer. optimizing is one thing but COers are a pox upon the game community

WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU DON'T HAVE AN ANKLET OF TRANSLOCATION AND BELT OF BATTLE AND 32 POINT BUY AND SHOCK TROOPER/COMBAT BRUTE WHAT KIND OF IDIOT NOOB ARE YOU

he reminds me of roy, and while I have a soft spot for roy's antics, I would not tolerate his kind as a player.

[Pseudo Stupidity]

Ah, so it's only supposed to do 38 damage in its first round then. That's a lot more reasonable. It still ends up killing whoever it grappled (nobody is escaping that grapple mod or casting while in it), but that does mean it doesn't auto-kill you unless you're a lower-con squishy guy or it rolls well.

You know, unless it power attacks. Then it just pops the poor guy anyways as it deals 56 damage (bonus damage from power attack explicitly applies to constrict). So...yeah, never mind. It kills clothies no matter what via charge and constrict. The rake is just to make anyone who survives the first hit get completely mauled next round as they struggle against a +24 grapple mod and 32 CMD (a character's CMB at that level should be maybe 17 if they're built specifically for it).

Who the fuck puts a party up against that when it gets a damn surprise round!? Is the surprise round written into the module or was I getting fucked with?

Edit: Pardon my potential stupidity, but what is a COer?

[Korwin]

CO = Character Optimizier

To be honest, I'm a little surprised how many 'Low-Power-Player' are in the Den.

[Psychic Robot]

character optimizer. I use the term to designate one who does not merely optimize a character (because everyone does that) but people who min/max to stretch the game to the breaking point people like these assholes. the sort of idiots who will seriously argue that they can get into mystic theurge by level three and assume that you have access to the spell compendium (and if your DM bans it he's an asshole) and act like incantatrix power is the baseline and sperg out over class tiers

[Korwin]

Why this hate for books beside Core?
If we only play core, who would play anything besides Wizard, Cleric and Druid?
Why the fuck did I buy those books only to Not use them?

Edit: As to your link, I was of the opinion the Assholes are here on the Den. Was I mistaken, should I go back?

[Pseudo Stupidity]

Ah, I thought CO wasn't a bad thing to be. If you use the term like PR does then yeah, that's pretty bad but that seems more like the common definition of munchkin "everything is allowed forever, try and break the game because you can WIN!"

I mean, I'll play a divination wizard but I won't go around and play the chain-binding "make the world my bitch" game. Are there people who seriously allow that?

Edit: this is not being pro-banning books, this is being pro "stop trying to break the game, douche." I'd understand banning books if you run into people like that.

[Psychic Robot]

Why this hate for books beside Core?
If we only play core, who would play anything besides Wizard, Cleric and Druid?
Why the fuck did I buy those books only to Not use them?

no hate for them, just the assumption that everyone has access to them and that DMs are obligated to allow them

[hogarth]

he reminds me of roy, and while I have a soft spot for roy's antics, I would not tolerate his kind as a player.

Oh yeah... I kind of forgot about Roy!

[rasmuswagner]

Why this hate for books beside Core?
If we only play core, who would play anything besides Wizard, Cleric and Druid?
Why the fuck did I buy those books only to Not use them?

Edit: As to your link, I was of the opinion the Assholes are here on the Den. Was I mistaken, should I go back?

And there's a difference between "Core only" on one hand, and on the other allowing everything in SC, which is a contender for the spot as 2nd worst book for the entire edition.

[A Man In Black]

What does Red Hand of Doom or the fact that Shadow Balls is annoying have to do with Pathfinder again?

[Shadow Balls]

Come on now, you came into a PF thread. We're obviously talking about PF here. I'm not talking about the dragon thread because the dragon thread is about a system I have not played and thus won't pretend to know anything about. The module is easily converted to PF, according to the supposed backwards compatibility of PF (we know this is not true, but it will be converted anyways).

This was originally about the Behir in RHoD, which is not a PF module. Kaelik brought the dragon into this because he is retarded. Regardless, I'm assuming 3.5. In PF it isn't even a contest. If you are a caster, everyone lines up to suck your cock. If you are not, you only remain alive as long as your casting overlords are pleased with your ability to perform fellatio upon them.

Casters do not auto-win in PF, they are just more powerful than other PCs. What sort of tactics is a full-caster using to not get killed by the half-fiend behir? The entrance to the cave is completely empty, and once some party members cross it you spend a while looking for secret doors if I remember correctly.

Why would you waste time fucking around when you have an area to secure? The path leading up into the rest of the place is plainly visible, so you go in after buffing, and the Behir jumps you, doesn't kill you, and then you kill it, and then you head up the stairs and go fight some weak goblinoids and such.

And they certainly do auto win, especially in a module like RHoD in which 90% of the encounters are either humanoids or magical beasts so you cast a Will save effect and hit the weak point for massive damage.

If you prebuff before every dungeon I hope you enjoy watching them run out as you look for secret fucking doors (easily one of the stupidest design decisions ever) in the dungeons. There are also many locked doors, which each take at least a minute to pick, and traps that exist solely to bother the party and slow the game to a crawl. Hence the term dungeon crawling.

You do not fuck around looking for secret doors until the area is secure. And then you find it in 1 round, and continue from there.
You do not fuck around waiting for the Rogue to slowly pick the locks (which that dungeon does not even have), you break the door down if you have to and continue. But as again, there are no locked doors there you don't give a fuck.
You do not pretend that traps matter, especially in PF. You simply proceed and if you trigger them whoop de fucking do. It is far better than the alternative, which is waiting for the slow ass Rogue to try, and fail to find and disarm any traps that are there. And there are no traps there.

Nobody puts up mirror image and goes sprinting through dungeons because that is stupid and you end up missing shit. Besides, the fighter is there to trigger combats so you can whip a buff out if needed. If somebody crosses a room safely you don't put up mirror image to cross the damn room that has no visible doors, that's a waste of resources (until a closet troll shows up to kill everyone).

Missing things like what? The things you can easily find once the area is secure without wasting buff times, and without giving the whole dungeon plenty of time to buff the fuck up and come swarm you?

And really, that's what he's there for?

You consider a character to be weak if they don't beat monsters who are supposed to wipe the floor with them. Your expectations are not the system's expectations. A half-fiend behir is a closet troll that should destroy any unoptimized (and unprepared, optimized) casters that bother it. It fucking ambushes you, so unless you prebuffed or were divination speced you lose. How does a cleric deal with the behir, how about a druid? I think that +17 bite against a flat-footed opponent is going to hit pretty much regardless of your AC and then you are dead because fuck you it kills if it gets a grapple.

It's about 2 levels higher, and not even a very strong CR 10. So yes, I do expect the party to defeat it, and for no one to die. If those conditions are not met, you are weak.

Clerics and Druids survive because they are casters, and have caster quality defenses accordingly. That means high, in case that was too subtle for you. Specifically, most of the attacks will miss due to AC. Contrast to Wizard miss chances and Psion temp HP. But it amounts to the same goal - you take little to no real damage. Not to mention that Clerics and Druids get Freedom of Movement. Wizards too. At 10 minutes a level, or an hour a level, that means even if you have a tard group your buff will last the full dungeon. Please, someone derp out and claim they don't. I need a laugh.

PS, the Behir is fucking outside the dungeon. So unless you pre buff before finding the dungeon, you are not prebuffed.

You show up, you look around, you say... Maybe we should start buffing? Then you gather into a group to get that Recitation on all of you, and one of you walks over a Behir who instantly murders them.

No, no it fucking isn't you fucking fucker.

Varanthian's Lair (EL 8) < This actually should say 10, but it's another one of those errors.

Blah blah blah fluff text and description.

There is a 30% chance that Varanthian is out hunting for food when the characters arrive at the Ghostlord's lair. In that case, the cavern is empty. Otherwise she can be found here eating.

Now you could argue that she hears the PCs coming, and moves into a better position so that they are not interrupting her lunch time, and so that she can do the closet troll thing but you do in fact encounter her in the dungeon, and the only way to encounter her outside of the dungeon is a 1/25 chance of a random encounter, which presumably takes place during that 30% of the time that she is hunting.

[Shadow Balls]

I am assuming that every EVERYONE has 14 Con (minimum) and a Con item. Because if you don't, you fail the check to determine whether or not you are an adventurer, and you die well before encountering the Behir.

Do you live in some kind of bizarro universe where every DM uses 32/25P point-buy and Wizards don't care about Dex?

1: 18 Int and 14 Con is 22 points in 3.5, and is also 22 in PF but can be financed by putting 7s in meaningless stats.
2: The 3.5 version can still get Dex, and if less than 32 PB it doesn't hurt the Wizard, but does make you even more retarded for playing anything but the top shelf casters.
3: The PF version has a negative number of reasons to worry about Dex.

Frenzied Berserker is a shitty class that doesn't do any of the things it is supposed to do and requires your party to babysit you even more than they would if you were a non FB BSF.

Except that you have Righteous Wrath, which turns off Frenzy's negative effects while Raging and is a perfectly valid feat to take if you're pulling bullshit from UA.

In such a case it is still a shitty class, it still doesn't do any of the things it is supposed to do, and still requires your party to babysit you. But you won't try to kill them at least right?

One that you can actually qualify for and obtain before sixth level.

Knowing a few power builds doesn't make you a min-maxer. Every post you make reveals that any optimizing skills you have are deficient for actual play. If you want to think of yourself as an optimizer, then you need to be able to get results in suboptimal starting conditions.

Or you could just play a build that doesn't suck, which is a far more productive use of time and effort.

Ah, so it's only supposed to do 38 damage in its first round then. That's a lot more reasonable. It still ends up killing whoever it grappled (nobody is escaping that grapple mod or casting while in it), but that does mean it doesn't auto-kill you unless you're a lower-con squishy guy or it rolls well.

Killing who, exactly? The random cohort's cohort? Because apparently PF Behirs are pussy ass bitches that can't hit worth a fuck, and PF characters, particularly casters have more HP.

You know, unless it power attacks. Then it just pops the poor guy anyways as it deals 56 damage (bonus damage from power attack explicitly applies to constrict). So...yeah, never mind. It kills clothies no matter what via charge and constrict. The rake is just to make anyone who survives the first hit get completely mauled next round as they struggle against a +24 grapple mod and 32 CMD (a character's CMB at that level should be maybe 17 if they're built specifically for it).

Then if everything hits, it might drop the 3.5 Wizard to -1. But since this is the PF Behir, it's fighting a PF Wizard, which means it has around oh... 79, perhaps 87 HP to go through? Yeah. Not. Happening. It turns out that a combination of the HD boost, free bonuses from favored classes, more Con from an even more SAD friendly stat system, and a more abusable craft system give the Wizard 3 or perhaps 4 extra HP for every level, so multiply that by 8. Oh and add 1. 80 or 88, my mistake.

Who the fuck puts a party up against that when it gets a damn surprise round!? Is the surprise round written into the module or was I getting fucked with?

Edit: Pardon my potential stupidity, but what is a COer?

The surprise round isn't built into the module. It does have decent senses, so could probably hear people coming and climb on the roof or something. It can't hide underground, as it has no burrow speed. But by default? Nothing.

Why this hate for books beside Core?
If we only play core, who would play anything besides Wizard, Cleric and Druid?
Why the fuck did I buy those books only to Not use them?

Edit: As to your link, I was of the opinion the Assholes are here on the Den. Was I mistaken, should I go back?

Your mistake was taking anything that Psychic Robot says seriously. I've already learned that.

Why this hate for books beside Core?
If we only play core, who would play anything besides Wizard, Cleric and Druid?
Why the fuck did I buy those books only to Not use them?

Edit: As to your link, I was of the opinion the Assholes are here on the Den. Was I mistaken, should I go back?

And there's a difference between "Core only" on one hand, and on the other allowing everything in SC, which is a contender for the spot as 2nd worst book for the entire edition.

A lot of people say that, but then a lot of people are wrong. Just about everything in the SC is a reprint of spells from some other source. The spells in the SC are very often nerfed when compared to their original sources. So for all the derp about how SC is overpowered and a shitty book and so forth, you'd think there would be more whining about the original sources.

[CapnTthePirateG]

What happened to bitching about pathfinder?

[Mask_De_H]

What happened to bitching about pathfinder?

The same thing that happens to most threads: asshattery.

Wait, did Shadow Balls just say a mechanic built into the game as a whole is specifically not built into a module to further his argument? That's pretty special.

Disregarding that, Shadow, where are you getting your numbers from (outside of the obvious place) you chucklefuck?

[Kaelik]

Varthain's Lair, PS for people who don't own the module, is the giant open area outside the dungeon, with no roof, no walls, and basically just a giant platform right next to the entrances to the dungeon itself.

So... yeah, still just a giant open area, and not inside the dungeon, so no reason you would buff up before getting there.

[K]

I like how Shadowball's world has players who always know what challenges will occur and always have memorized and/or cast the perfect spells for those challenges.... And they always have the perfect classes and builds for the challenges.... And no circumstance ever interferes with his player's plan, like pesky durations running out.

[icyshadowlord]

I really should stop posting at the Paizo forums. It's clear to see that they have no idea what the fuck they are talking about when it comes to the fact that Fighters really can't have nice things and that their "perfect game" is flawed as hell. Some of them are retarded (or insane) enough to think that THE WIZARD IS THE GROUP'S DEAD WEIGHT.

[Psychic Robot]

you must be posting in that "how balanced is pathfinder" thread.

[GâtFromKI]

What does Red Hand of Doom or the fact that Shadow Balls is annoying have to do with Pathfinder again?

This:

[icyshadowlord]

you must be posting in that "how balanced is pathfinder" thread.

Either you really are psychic, or then you went there yourself to see. I have no idea which one it is, but I doubt that even matters.

[GâtFromKI]

I really should stop posting at the Paizo forums. It's clear to see that they have no idea what the fuck they are talking about when it comes to the fact that Fighters really can't have nice things and that their "perfect game" is flawed as hell. Some of them are retarded (or insane) enough to think that THE WIZARD IS THE GROUP'S DEAD WEIGHT.

there's also an optimisation guide which states that toughness is more powerful than quicken.

Well, I know that Pathfinder's toughness is more powerful than its 3.5 counterpart, but... Something's wrong...

And this nonsense continue during the whole guide: "OK option" are rated as "must-have", and "I win button" are rated as "meh option".


And there's another subject in which someone explain that combat maneuvers are very useful at level 20, if the enemy don't fly and don't use FoM. And isn't a CR 20 monster. Actually, he's explaining that maneuvers work at level 20 if you play in the same way than at level 1.

(Personally, I can't even see how you can use trip anything at level 20. You're flying. If the enemy is flying, you can't trip him. If your enemy isn't flying, you don't go into melee range because it's a lot of fun to kill him while he can't reach you. Am I missing something? And trip is the most powerful maneuver, which basically means "you don't try any maneuver past level 10".

According to Paizo's board, if you're flying and the enemy isn't, you go into melee range because "that's what PCs do". Stupid PCs of stupid paizils do stupid things, I guess.)

[Shadow Balls]

What happened to bitching about pathfinder?

The same thing that happens to most threads: asshattery.

Wait, did Shadow Balls just say a mechanic built into the game as a whole is specifically not built into a module to further his argument? That's pretty special.

Disregarding that, Shadow, where are you getting your numbers from (outside of the obvious place) you chucklefuck?

What the fuck are you talking about, and which numbers are you referring to you fucking fucker?

Varthain's Lair, PS for people who don't own the module, is the giant open area outside the dungeon, with no roof, no walls, and basically just a giant platform right next to the entrances to the dungeon itself.

So... yeah, still just a giant open area, and not inside the dungeon, so no reason you would buff up before getting there.

No, no it fucking isn't.

You go up the stairs into the dungeon, and the first room you find is her lair. Not the entry hall, that's just an entry hall.

In fact it has a 15 foot ceiling, so the hide on the roof tactic doesn't really work either. And if you really want to get technical about it, the Behir opens with its shitty breath weapon instead of being a closet troll so fuck you.

I like how Shadowball's world has players who always know what challenges will occur and always have memorized and/or cast the perfect spells for those challenges.... And they always have the perfect classes and builds for the challenges.... And no circumstance ever interferes with his player's plan, like pesky durations running out.

I love how people whose name start with the letter K constantly make up ridiculous, lying arguments to try to make the other person look bad, and everyone just laps it up like little bitches.

But then, you and others would fit in fine at the Paizo boards, what with all the other retards that think Toughness is good, and Wizards can't easily survive being attacked.

What the hell is a Paizil though? A Paizo member turned into a pretzel by the enemies?