Cyberpunk Fantasy Heartbreaker: Magic and Technology

General questions, debates, and rants about RPGs

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OgreBattle
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Post by OgreBattle »

Vebyast wrote:
The legs do need significant modifications, as I mentioned earlier. I would probably make them quadrupedal, with four long, sturdy legs going well out to the sides. Imagine something like the outriggers you see on mobile cranes with a meter-long lower leg. The mech doesn't sacrifice too much speed and stays low enough to hide behind hills and walls, but the legs give it much greater maneuverability.
...arm is probably modular and could be fitted with a wide variety of weaponry. I can reasonably see them being armed with everything up to and including 155mm artillery, given magazine space and a "tail" of sorts mounted on the pod to transfer some of the stress off the shoulder.
I like your thinking

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Post by Vebyast »

Yeah, that's the right kind of leg. =P

Also, these things will inevitably be nicknamed "Spider Boxes". Especially if you give them the ability to drop little hexapod recon drones. I'm not sure whether that's an argument for or against that body plan.
Last edited by Vebyast on Wed Nov 09, 2011 6:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Username17 »

Needs wider feet. Although there is much to recommend Wheel Feet as well.

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Post by Username17 »

For a variety of reasons, I think it would be good for each of the six flavors of magic to come in three different flavors. This makes sure that each branch of magic has a broad enough base of available uses to not get stuck in the Evocation trap of D&D (Fire damage and lightning damage? Sign me up!), while also keeping things in memorable piles. Ideally, the groupings should sound like they came from outsider colonies, or at least were translated from whatever the outsider colonies talked about.
Magic SchoolsFlavors (needs name)ExplanationExample Spells
ShaktiPranaTelekinesisDistant Hands
Poltergeist
ShaktiKalaTime ControlBullet Time
Stasis
ShaktiVajraElectricityShocking Grasp
Interference

The other categories are tentatively Alchemy, Conjuration, Illusion, Thaumaturgy, and Weirding.

On top of that, there are magical physical enhancements. An Asura can get an extra pair of arms, while a human can get wings or other demon parts.

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Post by Username17 »

One of the great perils of making magic systems is what is called "Manipulation Bloat" (after the school of magic in Shadowrun, D&D players know it as "Transmutation Bloat"). That is, if one of your spell categories "changes stuff", then there is a tendency to want to put literally every type of effect in the game into it. Because hey, anything worth making a spell is by definition some kind of "change". And so it is that it is hopeful that the spell list for Ogre magic will not go all crazy and take over everything. In the hope of having that (not) happen, let's make it:
Magic SchoolsFlavors (needs name)ExplanationExample Spells
AlchemyWaiTransmutation of ElementsMetal to Water
Solidify Air
AlchemyNeiTransmutation of CreaturesAnimal Form
Polymorph
AlchemyJingTransmutation of EssenceStone Skin
Gaseous Form

Does that seem like it could be compact enough?

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Post by Vebyast »

FrankTrollman wrote:
Magic SchoolsFlavors (needs name)ExplanationExample Spells

That works if you explicitly note that transmutations are homogeneous and in bulk: no force aneurysm because you have to target the entire creature or the maximum amount of wall you can target, and no "I use Wai to build Godzilla from the DNA up, bypassing the CR restrictions on using Nei" because you have to apply the same simple transformation rule (e.g. "Metal to Water") to the entire target.
Last edited by Vebyast on Sun Nov 13, 2011 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by fectin »

FrankTrollman wrote:stuff
Also why every new mechanic in Magic TCG was blue.

It looks like you've just quarantined the problem into transmutation of elements, because the other two seem fairly sane, and elements does not. Shouldn't that sort of thing be either a body transmutation or a dwarf power anyway?
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Post by kzt »

Transmute elements. Hmm, how much plutonium is critical mass? ;-)
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Post by Username17 »

Elemental transmutation needs hard Chinese Alchemical limits. So turning metal to water and back is in, and turning fire to ice is in, but turning lead into Mendelevium and watching the explosion is right out - as is turning the water in someone's blood into iodine or any of that shit.

The key is that it can't work like Mage transmutation (floor to liquid nitrogen bomb), and it can't work like X-men transmutation (I just pulled the iron out of your blood!). You can melt stone and metal walls, but I'm not sure you should even be able to affect plastics.

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Post by Lokathor »

You can melt stone and metal walls, but I'm not sure you should even be able to affect plastics.
With specifically this example... no one has "metal" walls in the first place, they've got ferrocrete and plasteel and so on in all their walls. Even normal walls that aren't supposed to be hardened against enemy attack. So either you can "close enough" with things or the school becomes useless because there's everything in everything else in the future.

"Melt Object" should be a Jing spell that rolls damage against the object, and if that's enough damage that it would have destroyed it then the object melts instead.
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Post by Ice9 »

I guess the question is - reactive elements aside, how possible should it be to do something like "Transmute the air in this room to metal, trapping everybody in a personal coffin":
A ) Easily possible.
B ) Difficult, maybe anybody in the area gets to make some kind of roll to resist it happening.
C ) Not possible.


I don't think that melting walls is too big a balance issue, but melting everybody's cybernetic parts might be. Some possible rules for this:
1) Targetting is not automatic. If you want to target "someone's eyeball" then it works the same way as making a called shot on said eyeball.
2) Complexity and precision are not free, they add to the difficulty as much as affecting mroe stuff does.
3) Living (sentient?) creatures, and the area within X distance of them, either cannot be transmuted, or at least the creature gets a roll to resist it.

This does not handle the "air into metal coffin" thing though, except that at least the coffins won't be quite form-fitting, so people could potentially deploy countermeasures - if they have any.
Last edited by Ice9 on Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:22 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by RadiantPhoenix »

How about this: If your power tries to affect an invalid target, it fizzles.
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Post by Grek »

Ice9 wrote:I guess the question is - reactive elements aside, how possible should it be to do something like "Transmute the air in this room to metal, trapping everybody in a personal coffin"
The Chinese elements are Wood, Fire, Water, Metal and Earth. Air is nowhere to be found on that list, which is good for us because it means that "Air to Metal" is not a valid alchemy spell.
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Post by Vebyast »

Grek wrote:The Chinese elements are Wood, Fire, Water, Metal and Earth. Air is nowhere to be found on that list, which is good for us because it means that "Air to Metal" is not a valid alchemy spell.
Still can be circumvented - super soaker plus Water to Metal is still ridiculous. We need a broader solution.

As an example, we might phrase the cost for a spell in terms of how many mechanical abilities it will open up or deny. "Water to Iron" cast on a person kills them, denying them the use of all of their abilities, and is therefore expensive. "Wood to Water" destroys a wall, creating a link between two really abstract locations that lets you see, shoot, and move between them; this opens up three actions and is less expensive. "Metal to Earth" on your opponent's sword denies them the ability to use that sword, costing even less.

This isn't a usable solution (easily abused, requires huge arguments), but it makes a good starting point. We need something that can be unambiguously converted into a number.
Last edited by Vebyast on Tue Nov 15, 2011 4:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by OgreBattle »

Grek wrote:
Ice9 wrote:I guess the question is - reactive elements aside, how possible should it be to do something like "Transmute the air in this room to metal, trapping everybody in a personal coffin"
The Chinese elements are Wood, Fire, Water, Metal and Earth. Air is nowhere to be found on that list, which is good for us because it means that "Air to Metal" is not a valid alchemy spell.
Air is a part of Wood.
Both air and wood feed fire.


Chinese elements are more about transitional phases than being the substance of all things. Whatever that means for an RPG though I don't know, it's cool to shoot fire and make trees grow anyways.
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Post by Grek »

Vebyast wrote:Still can be circumvented - super soaker plus Water to Metal is still ridiculous. We need a broader solution.
Most people are already full of water, so spraying them with it isn't going to help. Having your blood slowly transmuted into iron is certainly bad, but it isn't so critically bad that it will take you out of the fight before you could do anything to counter it. Being covered with specks of metal, or even large splatters of metal, isn't even a problem by comparison.

Preumably, there is some magical way to reverse the changes made by alchemy and turn your new mercury-filled blood back into regular blood or, barring that, to chemically extract/neutralize all the mercury before it poisons you and replace your blood with synthblood so you don't die of blood loss.

The real answer to the balance problem is to say that alchemy happens gradually over the course of several minutes, and that wai combat alchemists have the option of partially transmuting a little bit of a target over the course of few seconds, which has similar constraints and effectiveness as a combat action or to drop into noncombat priority for several minutes to cast a spectacularly deadly but easily interruptable full transmutation.
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Post by Vebyast »

Grek wrote:
Vebyast wrote:Still can be circumvented - super soaker plus Water to Metal is still ridiculous. We need a broader solution.
Most people are already full of water, so spraying them with it isn't going to help.
I was thinking spider-man.
Grek wrote:Having your blood slowly transmuted into iron is certainly bad, but it isn't so critically bad that it will take you out of the fight before you could do anything to counter it.
That works, but only by making it a non-issue. That may be reasonable, though; the combat minigame isn't everything. It also doesn't address "Transmute Brick to Supercomputer".
Last edited by Vebyast on Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by RadiantPhoenix »

Vebyast wrote:It also doesn't address "Transmute Brick to Supercomputer".
As long as 'supercomputer' isn't a material or material property, that won't be a problem.

Superconductors, maybe, but I think that's an acceptable use.
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Post by Username17 »

Staking out some rules on transmutation seems pretty necessary, especially in a game which has modern physics available to player characters. Inviolate rules like "no changing mass" or "no changing state" sound like a good idea, but transmuting 100 kilograms of solid floor to 100 kilograms of solid nitrogen has extremely explosive implications (see nMage). The reality is that different substances have massively different densities, melting and boiling points, and specific heats. Clearly, if you set pretty much any physical values as constants and then let physics runs its ugly course, the results are going to be a catastrofuck. The goal is to provide concrete goals for what Waidan can accomplish and what it can't, and then use those data points to do a regression as to what the actual physics are. So things that want to happen:
  • A channeler waves his hands and a metal wall or chain link fence turns into water and splashes down onto the ground.
  • A channeler raises his fist and a tree grows out of a pond.
  • A channeler snaps his fingers and a dude bursts into flames.
  • A channeler holds out his hands and fires blow away as dust.
  • A channeler puts his fist into the ground and metal spikes burst out of the earth.
All of those things want to happen because they are awesome and because they have simple and obvious source material in Chinese alchemical thought. Characters using Waidan in various ways to kill people is not actually particularly threatening to the world because there are lots of ways to kill people. As long as someone can use Shakti Vajra Lightning to kill someone or Thaumaturgical Nod Decay to end someone's life, anything which appears in any other context that maps to an attack is meaningful only in that it makes magical specialists a little more rounded.

What I'm actually concerned about is not the ability to kill people - guns do that pretty well - but to kill the setting. That is: an ability like Movement in Shadowrun has incredibly far reaching implications that I happen to know were not thought out even half as well by anyone who ever designed for the game (other than me) as they should be. So transmuting things into valuable things at a rate that alchemists wouldn't want to have jobs is probably right out. Transmuting mass in such a way as to get really substantial amounts of energy to the point where it starts rivaling solar cells is also a bad thing. Fundamentally: the ability to turn a wall into water is a bigger deal for the setting than the ability to turn a man into a dead man.

So here's what we get from the simple cases: transmuting needs to allow you to grow things. Dirt to metal just isn't useful for much of anything except impromptu bunker construction unless the metal can grow out of the ground somehow. But we still don't want people transmuting dirt into radios or some shit, meaning that when alchemy grows stuff it grows organically in a vaguely predictable/controllable fashion.

So when you make water, you can have it come out in a geyser. When you make metal it can pop out in the multi-drills from Gurren Lagann. When you make fire you can have it flare up. When you make wood, you can have it grow like a plant. And when you make earth, you can have it... something something darkside. I'm actually not sure whether it should rain down like a dust devil, bulge up like a molehill, or crater up like you just dropped a space rock. But anyway the point is that having the element grow in organically allows us to sidestep issues like mass and pressure differences - since we can actually have the water geyser in over enough time that we don't have to explain why pressure differentials don't blow up the whole building.

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Post by RiotGearEpsilon »

That works well with alchemical thought anyway, being more concerned with processes and energy flows than BAMPH CHANGE. I mean, unless you're Sun Wukong, but I don't think he's in this setting.
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Post by Orion »

Magic Transparency: How far do we take it?

In this thread, Frank proposed a conceptually elegant treatment of conjuration magic. Summoned spirits are statted up and priced as equivalent drones, mercenaries or hirelings, and acquired by the expenditure of Elan, a magic resource which is equivalent to and exchangeable with money. The Conjuration spells themselves simply allow you to more easily contact and bring in your hirelings. Now on the one hand, this looks suspiciously like a handwave. Drones and mercenaries have a tendency to be the least balanced and detailed parts of a rule system, and this conjuring system will only work if we have reasonable comprehensive and balanced rules for hired help. But the nice thing is that by piggybacking magic onto a proposed nonmagic subsystem, we get twice the functionality for the expended effort.

It occurred to me the other day that with the power of the Elan and Stress mechanic, you could conceivably piggyback a LOT of magic powers onto generic mechanics. Set an Elan cost based on the functionality of the equivalent gear, and set a Stress cost based on the options taken to improve ease of use, using cyberware as a guide. For example:

Weapons
Sonny the Elf has the Sight (allowing him to perceive magic) but not the Touch (required to cast spells or conjure). Nonetheless she has decided she wants to shoot fire at people, so she checks with his contacts in the magic underground and find a black market wand dealer. She purchases an ashwood wand enchanted with fire, takes it home, and spends some time Attuning it. It's a burden on her mind as long as it stays attuned, but now she can throw fireballs.
The Wand of Fire is magic item, the fantasy equivalent of implanted 'ware. In this case it directly inherits the statline of the flamethrower from the military equipment chapter. The Elan cost if he had enchanted it himself would be based on the cost of a flamethrower and a cyberarm, and the Stress cost to attune it reflects the advantages the wand possesses over the equivalent: miniturization and concealability.

Balaram the Human wants to be able to shoot lightning from his fingertips. He goes to a secluded mountaintop, fasts and performs austerities until he create enough inner heat to compel a Rudra to appear, and demands that it give him its Vajra. From now on, he can throw lightning at will, but his the ordeal leaves him a changed man.
The weapons table in the equipment chapter has a "weaponlike effects" subtable with stats for a lightning bolt (unless some kind of sci-fi electric weapon is already in the game). It's approximately equivalent to a heavy pistol in power and utility. The Elan to acquire the spell and the Stress of knowing it are based on the cost of a gun built into a covert cyberlimb.

Kenji the Asura is haunted by dreams of a remote mountaintop and appears to hear the voice of Susano-o. Eventually he gives in, climbing to the top of the mountain where enters a fugue state. Upon awakening, he finds that he can now throw lightning, but his hands have become deep midnight blue.This is the same as the previous example, except that as an Asura he pays less for his lightning because it is costed as an overt rather than a covert cyberlimb

Later tonight I'll post examples of magic equivalency for drugs, vehicles, and contacts, along with some of the pitfalls and complications I forsee (magic that isn't replicable by science, whether mundanes need mechanics mages can't poach, and whether mages should use spellcasting skills or the ordinary skills for the minigame they're raiding.)
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Post by Username17 »

Magic also has equivalence for Caches and Contacts in addition to Signature Items.

Embedded in the Marker concept is justification for charges and spell preparation. That is to say: since spells only go a short distance without a prepared link, if you want to cast spells at any range you're going to have to carry around some finite number of Markers that you can throw around. Furthermore, it is entirely possible to have magic that you can't cast on a moment's notice, but are able to prepare into voodoo dolls ahead of time, to use up later.

This makes the Wizard similar from a mechanical standpoint to Batman or James Bond. In either case, they go to their cache and dry hump it for an amount of time in order to set themselves up with a number of tricks that they can use on the mission in the time until they next get to a cache and trade gadgets around. The cache is some tomes of power and an alchemy lab, but that's not game mechanically distinct from what Green Arrow or Hawkeye does to get gizmos to hook to their shafts.

Where the mage is a bit different is that they have "fall back" magic that they can use in close quarters even if they have used up (or been stripped of) their Markers. I hope that this can be thought of as roughly balanced with the fact that Bruce Wayne or James Bond can still kill a man with their bare hands, gadgets or no.

Now Contacts. Contacts are like caches in that you go to them and dry hump them for advantages. But they are different from caches in that having them isn't a literal physical object in your house and does not make it more likely that people will compromise your flat to take your stuff (though having contacts probably means that you are more likely to be a protagonist of Double Dragon).

You can have pure Élan based spectral contacts that are basically Contacts. Totems and such, that you can literally call for information. These are like research contacts in the mortal world, and while you might inherit some of your Totem's enemies, they don't count against the Stash Limit of your Lifestyle.

But you can also have mixed setups. Summoning circles out of which you can summon Outsiders to serve you are extremely comparable to garages out of which you can set up drones. But they aren't simply game mechanically similar in that you need to go to your cache and spend considerable amount of time and "money" to get your killbots/demons up and running - they are also comparable in that having them uses up the wealth limit on your Lifestyle and if you try to keep them in a shady neighborhood you're running the risk of getting compromised.

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Post by T »

The first thing I think of with alchemy type transmutations in a Shadowrun style setting is not turning a metal fence to water but affecting opponents' weapons/defenses. Turn their metal bullets to water. Turn their metal gun barrels to wood and watch them explode when they fired them. Turn metal security camera bodies to water (or even the metal traces on the camera's PCBs to water). The potential for unintended consequences seems pretty large with open ended magic like that.
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Post by fectin »

Yes, but that's not a huge deal. That's roughly equivalent to just making called shots on the guns.

It's still a bit crazy though. I have never seen a system where "turn things into other things" was a balanced ability. Usually, the counterweight is that it takes a long time, but that just means that anyone with that ability wins downtime.

In this case, turning stuff into copper and selling that copper gives you infinity money. The setting discussion was based on a real scarcity of resources, so "make raw material" is powerful even without further game effects. That it doubles as "break everything" is just icing on the cake.
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Post by T »

fectin wrote:Yes, but that's not a huge deal. That's roughly equivalent to just making called shots on the guns.
True. I was imagining doing it to all the baddies all at once. An area effect spell.

But you make my point. The problem as I see it with an open ended 'tun shit to other shit' spell is that players are going to be players and try to push the limits of what they can do, and the GM is going to have to make judgement calls. Unless the spell was limited: Turn Metal to Mud - turns 1 cubic foot of metal to mud.
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