The Shadowrun Situation
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Ancient History
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I'd have thought Astral would be easy - just another layer over the world, sort of like the ghost view you have in some games whilereturning to your corpse. When astral perception toggle is on you see the astral world. When astral projection toggle is on you are a ghost of sorts.Ancient History wrote:Hacking in real time is possible in a video game - you just target hackable equipment instead of firing off a gun or a spell. What gets difficult in any game is virtual reality and the astral plane.
And VR? even easier, most of the menus in a game will simply be ic.
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TheFlatline
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He probably means astral projection where you dislocate from your physical body and shit like that. You're essentially creating two copies of your game world, one of which only a fraction of your gaming population will ever see.Fuchs wrote:I'd have thought Astral would be easy - just another layer over the world, sort of like the ghost view you have in some games whilereturning to your corpse. When astral perception toggle is on you see the astral world. When astral projection toggle is on you are a ghost of sorts.Ancient History wrote:Hacking in real time is possible in a video game - you just target hackable equipment instead of firing off a gun or a spell. What gets difficult in any game is virtual reality and the astral plane.
And VR? even easier, most of the menus in a game will simply be ic.
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Ancient History
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Otakusensei
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Stahlseele
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Which is something they are adamant about minimizing.
Welcome, to IronHell.
Shrapnel wrote:TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.
Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
In semi-related news, I saw a Shadowrun game for the Xbox 360 at Gamestop for five dollars.
I almost got it there, but decided to get Overlord 2 for my third game on the "buy two get one free" deal.
Partially, Overlord 2 was more expensive and I felt I was sticking it to the man, and also because the cover advertised being able to play with Windows Vista owners as a selling point.
I almost got it there, but decided to get Overlord 2 for my third game on the "buy two get one free" deal.
Partially, Overlord 2 was more expensive and I felt I was sticking it to the man, and also because the cover advertised being able to play with Windows Vista owners as a selling point.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
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TheFlatline
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The 360 game was well balanced and interesting, but had almost zero to do with Shadowrun, and in fact broke some canon consistency (There's a warp spell, and teleporting just doesn't happen in Shadowrun).
However, if memory serves it's an online-only team based shooter, which means that there's almost nobody playing it.
However, if memory serves it's an online-only team based shooter, which means that there's almost nobody playing it.
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Ancient History
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The Shadowrun 360 game was so bad Rob Boyle posted on the main SR site disavowing its connection with the pen-and-paper game. It wasn't a bad game, but it was overpriced and the lack of solo levels or anything resembling a storyline killed it, and whatever SR RPG audience it might have had hated the fact that the M$ dev team pissed all over the setting.
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TheFlatline
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Exactly. On it's own as a stand-alone IP it would have been a decent online shooter team fortress style.Ancient History wrote:The Shadowrun 360 game was so bad Rob Boyle posted on the main SR site disavowing its connection with the pen-and-paper game. It wasn't a bad game, but it was overpriced and the lack of solo levels or anything resembling a storyline killed it, and whatever SR RPG audience it might have had hated the fact that the M$ dev team pissed all over the setting.
If it's still there and I have five bucks on me, I'll snag it next time and fool around on it to see if anyone's still playing it on XBL.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
Conspiracy Theories is nice, but confims that James Meiers can't write interesting Shadowrun stuff (he's good on spy-related topic, though) and lacks a Game Information chapter.
To make matters worse, here's a statement by Patrick Goodman:
To make matters worse, here's a statement by Patrick Goodman:
There, I've said it, the cat's out of the bag: There's no Ultimate Big Story Guide to the Future. The metaplot isn't planned out with mathematical precision for the next decade and a half. Typically, we've got a very rough map to about a tenth of that amount of time at any given moment. Even then, if someone comes along and says, "Hey, don't you think it would be cool if we did thus-and-so here?", that map can go by the wayside for a while, to be returned to later, once the cool detour's made.
We can't tell you which ones are real and which are not because, for the most part, we don't know. We haven't decided yet. Always in motion, the future is.
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TheFlatline
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Otakusensei
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You know that you're in crap waaaay over your head when you start quoting imaginary characters to sound smart and wise.
Seriously, Yoda? He's as deep as a river on Tatooine, if I'm to use a SW themed metaphor. He was too dumb/lazy to learn the very language he was speaking in...
Seriously, Yoda? He's as deep as a river on Tatooine, if I'm to use a SW themed metaphor. He was too dumb/lazy to learn the very language he was speaking in...
Mariusz "Kot" Butrykowski
"The only way to keep them in line is to bury them in a row..."
"The only way to keep them in line is to bury them in a row..."
I have suspected for at least 2 years and now I firmly believe that they have following system (for both BattleTech and Shadowrun):TheFlatline wrote:In other words they're shit writers who can't write a plot.
Gotcha.
1) Write series of ideas out of your mind ... mostly what you think are cool. This usually means that they are old and faded by the time they come out or are so safe that they are boring. For example: Illuminati in BattleTech's conspiracy book.
2) Follow the feedback in your echo chamber (official/almost official forums). State in later product that those ideas that generate most favourable responses are the official truth. Say that the rest were just false rumours.
3) Rinse and repeat.
This method works in the short term because it allows using large number of low quality assistants (who work for pittance) to generate tons of varied ideas out (and thus product to sell). Then the currently active fan base (remember the 1000 active fans theory put out some years ago) works as a test audience that chooses what happened and you can still put out similar new products without any quality control whatsoever.
This is also disastrous in the long term because wildly jumping meta plot and arguing over its details causes player base to bleed out hobbyists and filters in only the rabid fan boys who make sure no new blood is coming in. In essence they are slowly but surely strangling themselves to irrelevancy.
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Ancient History
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There's a bit of truth to that, and has been for some time. I can't speak for Battletech, but for SR at least a major issue was the turnover in lead developers and the loss of established freelancers; the former are responsible for planning out the metaplot and the latter are the ones that actually drive it.
I basically came in at the very, very end of the old edition, when the new edition was already being written. I don't know if Rob had an explicit master three-year plan for the metaplot, but I know they had an ambitious planned-out schedule of books (that slipped fairly quickly) and a vision for how he wanted the game to be, at least in style and attitude. Peter Taylor had a more concrete plan - or at least, had more opportunity during his tenure to plot out storylines and books - so much so that I would argue it was still his basic bookplan being followed for most of the products under John Dunn and Jason Hardy. By the end, things were very bad - I think I've mentioned that the reason I argued so strongly for Harlequin's Gambit is because the artifact storyline, as plotted, didn't actually have a conclusion, and there was very little plotting going on in the freelancer chats beyond the next book.
Still, there were a few of us freelancers who - simply because we were writing everything, collaborating on almost all of the books, discussing what we wanted to do and how we wanted to do it - were driving all of the details of the metaplot, even if we had to adapt it to the book schedule. It was definitely ascended fanboy time, and I was probably one of the worst offenders in that regard. I had a hand or grimy finger in damn near every SR book that came out for five years, whether I got paid for it or not, and I used the opportunity to write about the organizations and characters that interested me, tied my pieces together between books and tied a lot of that together with old, old stuff from earlier editions...and sometimes that was cool, and sometimes that was bad, and sometimes I actively fought against metaplot from on high or developed by other writers. The same is true, of course, for other freelancers, several of whom had far longer tenures than I did.
I think the amount of investment I had in what I wrote was probably a major source of friction when things got bad on the development side of things. When we were writing Sixth World Almanac - and ye gods we knew that was a pile of shit even in development - they installed a glorified factchecker to go behind me and second-guess a lot of stuff I wrote. We...did not get along well. I liked the new freelancers at first, but some of their ideas and their overall knowledge of the setting was generally pretty poor. Then there were the outright insult-projects. It's really hard sometimes to let go of something when you've spent a lot of time and energy working on it.
I basically came in at the very, very end of the old edition, when the new edition was already being written. I don't know if Rob had an explicit master three-year plan for the metaplot, but I know they had an ambitious planned-out schedule of books (that slipped fairly quickly) and a vision for how he wanted the game to be, at least in style and attitude. Peter Taylor had a more concrete plan - or at least, had more opportunity during his tenure to plot out storylines and books - so much so that I would argue it was still his basic bookplan being followed for most of the products under John Dunn and Jason Hardy. By the end, things were very bad - I think I've mentioned that the reason I argued so strongly for Harlequin's Gambit is because the artifact storyline, as plotted, didn't actually have a conclusion, and there was very little plotting going on in the freelancer chats beyond the next book.
Still, there were a few of us freelancers who - simply because we were writing everything, collaborating on almost all of the books, discussing what we wanted to do and how we wanted to do it - were driving all of the details of the metaplot, even if we had to adapt it to the book schedule. It was definitely ascended fanboy time, and I was probably one of the worst offenders in that regard. I had a hand or grimy finger in damn near every SR book that came out for five years, whether I got paid for it or not, and I used the opportunity to write about the organizations and characters that interested me, tied my pieces together between books and tied a lot of that together with old, old stuff from earlier editions...and sometimes that was cool, and sometimes that was bad, and sometimes I actively fought against metaplot from on high or developed by other writers. The same is true, of course, for other freelancers, several of whom had far longer tenures than I did.
I think the amount of investment I had in what I wrote was probably a major source of friction when things got bad on the development side of things. When we were writing Sixth World Almanac - and ye gods we knew that was a pile of shit even in development - they installed a glorified factchecker to go behind me and second-guess a lot of stuff I wrote. We...did not get along well. I liked the new freelancers at first, but some of their ideas and their overall knowledge of the setting was generally pretty poor. Then there were the outright insult-projects. It's really hard sometimes to let go of something when you've spent a lot of time and energy working on it.
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Stahlseele
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Yeah, and that's why it's so bad that you guys had to quit working for Shadowrun . . and what i'd like to see in shadowrun, battletech and warhammer 40k . . people who love the stuff they are writing and working together . .
Welcome, to IronHell.
Shrapnel wrote:TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.
Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
The problem is that they've got a pretty big team of freelancers, any of whom can suddenly disappear or have a lot of time on his hands to write things.
To make things more difficult, each of these freelancers has a different vision of the game (whch isn't surprising due to the fact that Shadowrun offers many different playstyle and has never really favored one over the others) and some even have completely opposite visions (some think Shadowrun should go back to 80s cyberpunk while other think it should leave what's left of cyberpunk and move into something else).
On top of this, there's a line developer who doesn't have a clear vision of the way he'd want the game to go (in terms of metaplot, style and ambiance) and prefers to let everyone have it his way.
To make things more difficult, each of these freelancers has a different vision of the game (whch isn't surprising due to the fact that Shadowrun offers many different playstyle and has never really favored one over the others) and some even have completely opposite visions (some think Shadowrun should go back to 80s cyberpunk while other think it should leave what's left of cyberpunk and move into something else).
On top of this, there's a line developer who doesn't have a clear vision of the way he'd want the game to go (in terms of metaplot, style and ambiance) and prefers to let everyone have it his way.
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Otakusensei
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Dead on. The key issue you're seeing right now is a weak line developer. He can't manage the resources he has to move the line forward and he doesn't understand the product or the setting enough to have that vision that he needs.
Jason, I don't care how much you edited.
Here is an interesting bit of conversation I kept a copy of. I don't know if anyone still cares about this stuff, but it's interesting to see Jason's promise. I'll spoiler tag it because it's a beast. I'm not too bent out of shape about sharing PMs here because this has gone on long enough and become such a farce that I really don't see how anything I can do to would make anything any worse. Haters gonna hate, I suppose:
Jason, I don't care how much you edited.
Here is an interesting bit of conversation I kept a copy of. I don't know if anyone still cares about this stuff, but it's interesting to see Jason's promise. I'll spoiler tag it because it's a beast. I'm not too bent out of shape about sharing PMs here because this has gone on long enough and become such a farce that I really don't see how anything I can do to would make anything any worse. Haters gonna hate, I suppose:
otakusensei
A word in private, Mar 24 2010, 10:22 AM
I'm responding by PM because I understand that you most likely do not want to make worse what is already a bad situation.
I may have let a bit too much feeling into what I posted, I can understand why you are defensive. I have to admit that I'm not exactly on your side, as much as there can be sides in this. I've been very keen to pay attention to the names behind what I feel has been a Renaissance in the setting and direction for Shadowrun and I've been disappointed to see most of those names go. This isn't anything personal, you just happen to be relatively new and currently acting as mouth piece for what looks to all the world like a powerful force bent on bleeding this game dry.
I know that I'm assuming a lot based on the rumors, but like I said; if things are 25% as bad as what the rumors sound like I'm disappointed with the present response. It sounds like denial, like damage control, and not like a company trying to right itself.
By spin I only mean that you are trying to put a positive face on what is a grim situation. If the situation isn't grim, or as grim, then that's fine. I wanted to be blunt about being honest. It really is the best way to go in all things, always. Funny hearing that from someone who enjoys Shadowrun so much, but I try to only be a cold hearted bastard on the weekends.
I'd like to be on your side, but I have reservations because it seems like there are things that I'm not being told. The official statement was a bit light on details, where the rumor was not, and that tends to look a bit fishy. I can understand CGL not wanting to air all their dirty laundry in public though, especially if there are legal proceedings to look forward to.
I don't envy your position at all, and I have nothing personal against you. I'm praying this all works out for the best and we all have a game we can enjoy and be proud of when it's over. I've been playing for a long time, buying both books and PDFs recently, and I'll keep buying them as long as you keep putting them out. As a consumer I have an interest in making sure that my money isn't going to clubbing baby dolphins or other such irresponsible nonsense. I don't want to have to stop buying CGL products, so show me this company is a good steward of their properties.
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JM Hardy
Re:A word in private, Mar 24 2010, 10:38 AM
I appreciate you taking the time to set out your position. I understand Shadowrun fans are passionate about the game; I am too. As I mentioned when I became line developer, way back in 2000, the editor at FASA asked me which of their product lines I'd be interested in writing for, and I didn't hesitate--I said Shadowrun. FASA closed about six months later, which was the start of my star-crossed existence with Shadowrun, but that's another set of stories. The point is, I love the setting, and I have fought hard for it in different ways over the years (my first credited contribution to the line, BTW, was Mr. Johnson's Little Black Book back in 2004; my most recent freelance credit was for Seattle 2072. I'm relatively new as line developer, but not new to the line). I don't plan to stop fighting for the game.
I know the rumors have been more specific than the official statements, but as I said, that's the way things are going to be. A corporation cannot afford to let the quantity and quality of the information they release to the public be affected by the quantity and quality of rumors. There are reasons certain information is kept private, and those reasons do not change because someone decided to start a rumor. It fact, it would be irresponsible of Catalyst to adjust corporate policy simply to satisfy those who spread rumors.
The only way I can show you, and other players, that Catalyst is a good steward is through what happens next. It's been a bad week, with books being pulled from sale and others being delayed or otherwise complicated. So we'll show you what kind of a steward we are by how we move forward. I mentioned some criteria previously, namely: Are freelancers paid? Does Catalyst still have the license? Are we moving ahead on quality books? If we can't answer "yes" to enough of those questions, Catalyst will have shown itself to be a poor steward and will deservedly exit the Shadowrun business. My goal, then, is to make those answers "yes" in any way I can.
Jason H.
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((This is a PM in response to a post I made to DS calling Jason out for a making a disparaging comment about AH. I think some of you will recall this particular shit storm))
JM Hardy
Bobby's free stuff, Jun 2 2010, 08:20 PM
I already had a PM conversation with Bobby about this. The fact that he decided to post the altered drafts indicates that he chose to ignore that conversation.
Jason H.
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otakusensei
Re:Bobby's free stuff, Jun 2 2010, 08:23 PM
Well then, that answers your question.
If you have a concern, why not state it? I don't know what's worse, that your comment specifically cast AH in a negative light or that you are in the unique position to be able to answer your own, now rhetorical, question.
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JM Hardy
Re:Bobby's free stuff, Jun 2 2010, 08:35 PM
Didn't I already state my concern? Was I not clear enough?
Jason H.
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otakusensei
Re:Bobby's free stuff, Jun 2 2010, 08:40 PM
You stated a question, for AH to answer in a public forum. Seems disingenuous when you know the answer. Normally though, you'd be fine asking a rhetorical question. But you're the line developer and you are in a unique position to know the answer to that question. Why not act as the authority if you are correct? If you were really out for the interests of the parties you feel are aggrieved, you could have listed them. Instead you simply hinted that AH was recalcitrant in posting the work of others he had no business releasing.
Statement which I do not agree with.
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JM Hardy
Re:Bobby's free stuff, Jun 2 2010, 08:46 PM
I said what I knew. Honestly, at the moment, I don't have the time to look over all the other drafts to see if he put up edited ones or not, so I asked. But I knew he put up the edited PACKS, so I thought that was worth saying.
I'm sorry you believe that editors and publishers can have their work thrown around without their permission or input. I find it a little odd that people who are angry with Catalyst for not paying freelancers are okay with a writer taking editors' and proofers' work for free. Or when you're upset about the unpaid freelancers, do the unpaid editors not get included in that group, because their work can be published without hesitation or compensation?
Jason H.
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otakusensei
Re:Bobby's free stuff, Jun 2 2010, 08:49 PM
Just because you don't have time to act in your capacity on line dev doesn't mean you aren't.
For the record I wasn't aware that you could copyright editing and proof reading work. I'll have to be more careful in the future if that is true.
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JM Hardy
Re:Bobby's free stuff, Jun 2 2010, 08:57 PM
My capacity as live dev doesn't involve supervising Bobby. I'm doing that in my free time.
I never said it was copyrighted. But people entered into work with a certain understanding; now their work is being used in a different way then they were told. Why should Bobby be able to take advantage of their efforts without even acknowledgment?
Jason H.
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otakusensei
Re:Bobby's free stuff, Jun 2 2010, 09:04 PM
Bobby entered into work with an understanding too. Now the guy who made the call to cut him off is trying to raise questions about his professionalism and integrity on a public forum.
Now according to you the work AH did should never see the light of day unless he gets the permission of everyone that touched the docs? Isn't that sort of foolish on it's face if he was the one who was going to get paid for this work if it was used? Does he have to share tips with everyone who edited and proofed, or was that it's own arrangement? Do those people really have any say over the finished product and how it's used?
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JM Hardy
Re:Bobby's free stuff, Jun 2 2010, 09:10 PM
I didn't cut off his work. He did. He terminated his contracts. He has said so repeatedly.
I notice you keep exaggerating the amount of people who need to be consulted to some ridiculous thing, like "everyone who touched the doc." I said no such thing. Only people who did definable work on it, which is a narrow, easy-to-define group. Four other proofers, namely. He can even ignore the hours of effort I put into it.
And finally, what Bobby could do is what the people who wrote SoLA drafts did--either release their unedited drafts, or make sure they contact the editors. Notice how Jong-Won Kim made a point about doing that. All Bobby had to do was put out unedited drafts, and then he is not taking advantage of the editorial infrastructure that improved his documents.
Jason H.
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otakusensei
Re:Bobby's free stuff, Jun 2 2010, 09:25 PM
I didn't say you cut off his work. You cut him off as a freelancer, and in response he pulled his contracts.
I keep exaggerating because I don't know where the line is. I always though that the buck stopped with the author when it came to copyrights, but you want to include the proofers and editors. My point is why stop there? Who decides how many people are included?
Perhaps. I don't know what those drafts look like, if they still exist or if they are in a state any better than some of the other really rough work he's released. And I really fail to see the advantage he's getting from the editorial infrastructure you're touting, which I might add he was a part of. He isn't getting paid for his work, not anymore. I think the real point in this is so that there is a comparison with the work that you sent over seas today. I suspect you sent over 6WA, but that's purely speculation on my part.
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JM Hardy
Re:Bobby's free stuff, Jun 2 2010, 09:33 PM
Again, we're not talking about copyrights--we're talking about people's work, the expectations they had for it, and what was done with it. For the record, proofers made over 250 changes to PACKS. That's a significant improvement over the initial draft. If he was taking advantage of that infrastructure (which he now says he was not, and I'll take his word on that), then he would gain significant benefit by incorporating those changes and making a much more usable document. That's hours of work that went into the product, work for which the proofers will be compensated by Catalyst. Why should Bobby derive private benefit from their efforts and from the infrastructure Catalyst has set up?
But since he says all the changes are his own, it's a moot point. My posts have been edited accordingly.
Jason H.
A word in private, Mar 24 2010, 10:22 AM
I'm responding by PM because I understand that you most likely do not want to make worse what is already a bad situation.
I may have let a bit too much feeling into what I posted, I can understand why you are defensive. I have to admit that I'm not exactly on your side, as much as there can be sides in this. I've been very keen to pay attention to the names behind what I feel has been a Renaissance in the setting and direction for Shadowrun and I've been disappointed to see most of those names go. This isn't anything personal, you just happen to be relatively new and currently acting as mouth piece for what looks to all the world like a powerful force bent on bleeding this game dry.
I know that I'm assuming a lot based on the rumors, but like I said; if things are 25% as bad as what the rumors sound like I'm disappointed with the present response. It sounds like denial, like damage control, and not like a company trying to right itself.
By spin I only mean that you are trying to put a positive face on what is a grim situation. If the situation isn't grim, or as grim, then that's fine. I wanted to be blunt about being honest. It really is the best way to go in all things, always. Funny hearing that from someone who enjoys Shadowrun so much, but I try to only be a cold hearted bastard on the weekends.
I'd like to be on your side, but I have reservations because it seems like there are things that I'm not being told. The official statement was a bit light on details, where the rumor was not, and that tends to look a bit fishy. I can understand CGL not wanting to air all their dirty laundry in public though, especially if there are legal proceedings to look forward to.
I don't envy your position at all, and I have nothing personal against you. I'm praying this all works out for the best and we all have a game we can enjoy and be proud of when it's over. I've been playing for a long time, buying both books and PDFs recently, and I'll keep buying them as long as you keep putting them out. As a consumer I have an interest in making sure that my money isn't going to clubbing baby dolphins or other such irresponsible nonsense. I don't want to have to stop buying CGL products, so show me this company is a good steward of their properties.
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JM Hardy
Re:A word in private, Mar 24 2010, 10:38 AM
I appreciate you taking the time to set out your position. I understand Shadowrun fans are passionate about the game; I am too. As I mentioned when I became line developer, way back in 2000, the editor at FASA asked me which of their product lines I'd be interested in writing for, and I didn't hesitate--I said Shadowrun. FASA closed about six months later, which was the start of my star-crossed existence with Shadowrun, but that's another set of stories. The point is, I love the setting, and I have fought hard for it in different ways over the years (my first credited contribution to the line, BTW, was Mr. Johnson's Little Black Book back in 2004; my most recent freelance credit was for Seattle 2072. I'm relatively new as line developer, but not new to the line). I don't plan to stop fighting for the game.
I know the rumors have been more specific than the official statements, but as I said, that's the way things are going to be. A corporation cannot afford to let the quantity and quality of the information they release to the public be affected by the quantity and quality of rumors. There are reasons certain information is kept private, and those reasons do not change because someone decided to start a rumor. It fact, it would be irresponsible of Catalyst to adjust corporate policy simply to satisfy those who spread rumors.
The only way I can show you, and other players, that Catalyst is a good steward is through what happens next. It's been a bad week, with books being pulled from sale and others being delayed or otherwise complicated. So we'll show you what kind of a steward we are by how we move forward. I mentioned some criteria previously, namely: Are freelancers paid? Does Catalyst still have the license? Are we moving ahead on quality books? If we can't answer "yes" to enough of those questions, Catalyst will have shown itself to be a poor steward and will deservedly exit the Shadowrun business. My goal, then, is to make those answers "yes" in any way I can.
Jason H.
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((This is a PM in response to a post I made to DS calling Jason out for a making a disparaging comment about AH. I think some of you will recall this particular shit storm))
JM Hardy
Bobby's free stuff, Jun 2 2010, 08:20 PM
I already had a PM conversation with Bobby about this. The fact that he decided to post the altered drafts indicates that he chose to ignore that conversation.
Jason H.
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otakusensei
Re:Bobby's free stuff, Jun 2 2010, 08:23 PM
Well then, that answers your question.
If you have a concern, why not state it? I don't know what's worse, that your comment specifically cast AH in a negative light or that you are in the unique position to be able to answer your own, now rhetorical, question.
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JM Hardy
Re:Bobby's free stuff, Jun 2 2010, 08:35 PM
Didn't I already state my concern? Was I not clear enough?
Jason H.
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otakusensei
Re:Bobby's free stuff, Jun 2 2010, 08:40 PM
You stated a question, for AH to answer in a public forum. Seems disingenuous when you know the answer. Normally though, you'd be fine asking a rhetorical question. But you're the line developer and you are in a unique position to know the answer to that question. Why not act as the authority if you are correct? If you were really out for the interests of the parties you feel are aggrieved, you could have listed them. Instead you simply hinted that AH was recalcitrant in posting the work of others he had no business releasing.
Statement which I do not agree with.
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JM Hardy
Re:Bobby's free stuff, Jun 2 2010, 08:46 PM
I said what I knew. Honestly, at the moment, I don't have the time to look over all the other drafts to see if he put up edited ones or not, so I asked. But I knew he put up the edited PACKS, so I thought that was worth saying.
I'm sorry you believe that editors and publishers can have their work thrown around without their permission or input. I find it a little odd that people who are angry with Catalyst for not paying freelancers are okay with a writer taking editors' and proofers' work for free. Or when you're upset about the unpaid freelancers, do the unpaid editors not get included in that group, because their work can be published without hesitation or compensation?
Jason H.
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otakusensei
Re:Bobby's free stuff, Jun 2 2010, 08:49 PM
Just because you don't have time to act in your capacity on line dev doesn't mean you aren't.
For the record I wasn't aware that you could copyright editing and proof reading work. I'll have to be more careful in the future if that is true.
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JM Hardy
Re:Bobby's free stuff, Jun 2 2010, 08:57 PM
My capacity as live dev doesn't involve supervising Bobby. I'm doing that in my free time.
I never said it was copyrighted. But people entered into work with a certain understanding; now their work is being used in a different way then they were told. Why should Bobby be able to take advantage of their efforts without even acknowledgment?
Jason H.
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otakusensei
Re:Bobby's free stuff, Jun 2 2010, 09:04 PM
Bobby entered into work with an understanding too. Now the guy who made the call to cut him off is trying to raise questions about his professionalism and integrity on a public forum.
Now according to you the work AH did should never see the light of day unless he gets the permission of everyone that touched the docs? Isn't that sort of foolish on it's face if he was the one who was going to get paid for this work if it was used? Does he have to share tips with everyone who edited and proofed, or was that it's own arrangement? Do those people really have any say over the finished product and how it's used?
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JM Hardy
Re:Bobby's free stuff, Jun 2 2010, 09:10 PM
I didn't cut off his work. He did. He terminated his contracts. He has said so repeatedly.
I notice you keep exaggerating the amount of people who need to be consulted to some ridiculous thing, like "everyone who touched the doc." I said no such thing. Only people who did definable work on it, which is a narrow, easy-to-define group. Four other proofers, namely. He can even ignore the hours of effort I put into it.
And finally, what Bobby could do is what the people who wrote SoLA drafts did--either release their unedited drafts, or make sure they contact the editors. Notice how Jong-Won Kim made a point about doing that. All Bobby had to do was put out unedited drafts, and then he is not taking advantage of the editorial infrastructure that improved his documents.
Jason H.
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otakusensei
Re:Bobby's free stuff, Jun 2 2010, 09:25 PM
I didn't say you cut off his work. You cut him off as a freelancer, and in response he pulled his contracts.
I keep exaggerating because I don't know where the line is. I always though that the buck stopped with the author when it came to copyrights, but you want to include the proofers and editors. My point is why stop there? Who decides how many people are included?
Perhaps. I don't know what those drafts look like, if they still exist or if they are in a state any better than some of the other really rough work he's released. And I really fail to see the advantage he's getting from the editorial infrastructure you're touting, which I might add he was a part of. He isn't getting paid for his work, not anymore. I think the real point in this is so that there is a comparison with the work that you sent over seas today. I suspect you sent over 6WA, but that's purely speculation on my part.
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JM Hardy
Re:Bobby's free stuff, Jun 2 2010, 09:33 PM
Again, we're not talking about copyrights--we're talking about people's work, the expectations they had for it, and what was done with it. For the record, proofers made over 250 changes to PACKS. That's a significant improvement over the initial draft. If he was taking advantage of that infrastructure (which he now says he was not, and I'll take his word on that), then he would gain significant benefit by incorporating those changes and making a much more usable document. That's hours of work that went into the product, work for which the proofers will be compensated by Catalyst. Why should Bobby derive private benefit from their efforts and from the infrastructure Catalyst has set up?
But since he says all the changes are his own, it's a moot point. My posts have been edited accordingly.
Jason H.
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TheFlatline
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It seems to me pretty obvious what the direction of Shadowrun is generally intended to be:
Modern/future fantasy. Not cyberpunk mixed with fantasy, but straight up gobbing off on magic and fuck everything else because Magic = WIN.
Which isn't a *bad* idea for a setting, in fact it'd be kind of cool to take the traditional fantasy setting and modernize it, but it's not really Shadowrun. For me the appeal was that magic was half the picture. That the old ways are not necessarily the best ways, and how technology in some cases has changed the balance of power.
However, the direction it's going in now is to fellate magic, period. I get it. It's what some people dig. It's also easy and lazy. You don't even have to come up with technobabble with magic. You just say "It's magic!!!" and you're done.
Shadorun, for all it's forward leaning trappings, is actually becoming a luddite setting.
Modern/future fantasy. Not cyberpunk mixed with fantasy, but straight up gobbing off on magic and fuck everything else because Magic = WIN.
Which isn't a *bad* idea for a setting, in fact it'd be kind of cool to take the traditional fantasy setting and modernize it, but it's not really Shadowrun. For me the appeal was that magic was half the picture. That the old ways are not necessarily the best ways, and how technology in some cases has changed the balance of power.
However, the direction it's going in now is to fellate magic, period. I get it. It's what some people dig. It's also easy and lazy. You don't even have to come up with technobabble with magic. You just say "It's magic!!!" and you're done.
Shadorun, for all it's forward leaning trappings, is actually becoming a luddite setting.
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Ancient History
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Yes, I remember that last bit well. I hate to fight old battles, but what Jason of course forgets to mention is that:
Frankly, Jason's attitude concerning my release of my material is pretty galling compared to the material of mine he "accidentally" ended up re-using in Corp Guide and 6WA before I called foul.
a) Many of the changes suggested by the playtesters and proofers were ones I specifically threw out as incorrect or worthless
b) Many of the changes were ones that I had insisted on and which Jason chose not to accept
c) After he took me off the forums and basecamp, I no longer had access to most of those changes anyway
d) I did credit everyone whose comments did go into the draft I posted, and in the Dumpshock-proofed version posted later on.
b) Many of the changes were ones that I had insisted on and which Jason chose not to accept
c) After he took me off the forums and basecamp, I no longer had access to most of those changes anyway
d) I did credit everyone whose comments did go into the draft I posted, and in the Dumpshock-proofed version posted later on.
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Ancient History
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This was a source of major contention between myself and some of the other freelancers. I hate waving a hand and screaming "MAGIC!" when with slight exercise of brainpower you could come up with at least a half-reasonable way for it to work within the context of the game. Ghost Cartels, for example, I was one of the people with a big push to integrate the mechanism and effects of the drug into the setting and action of the plot. I'm not entirely happy with the result, but I think the final result is better than it might have been otherwise.TheFlatline wrote: However, the direction it's going in now is to fellate magic, period. I get it. It's what some people dig. It's also easy and lazy. You don't even have to come up with technobabble with magic. You just say "It's magic!!!" and you're done.
On the other side of things, there are times to remember that you're designing a game and not engineering a real-world system. Unwired was a nasty mess because we were working off something that was broken to begin with, like plugging more cords into a sparking multisocket. Trying to add real-world computing elements and fictional hacker stuff to a system that already didn't do well to emulate either...it might have been better to stay more abstract, is what I'm saying.