Why the hell is this hobby so fucking retarded?

[Gx1080]

I'm pretty sure that if all races were mechanically the same, people would whine about a lack of flavor and about how the game is "souless number-crunching" or something.

Also, I still say that is more of a problem of 3/8 class choices per race is way too limited. Make that 5/8.

So, this is an endless circle on opinions.

[ModelCitizen]

A two-point difference. That's a +1 difference in bonuses. And that's only if we decide both characters had an 18 to put into Int. This is the smallest difference there is in game mechanics. Meaning that half-orc will be almost as good as the elf/human. And he'll have other advantages, like being able to easily take a level of Barbarian, for example. Plus, story reasons. I would say playing a half-orc Wizard who's trying to defeat his own disadvantages would be fun.

Bonus spell slots, minimum int bonuses to cast. And wizards don't take barbarian levels. This is retarded.

(E: quote tag fuckery)

[ishy]

Mechanically the same doesn't have to mean that they have the same flavour though. Not all roleplaying choices need numbers attached to them.

[Gx1080]

Says you.

[A Man In Black]

Says you.

Do you have any argument other than "Nuh uh"?

Because it's fairly well established that a -2 to int doesn't make orc wizards less intelligent, it just makes them less every-other-stat since you're just going to take points out of every other stat to make up the stat you want.

I don't think the goal is for orc wizards to be cripples.

[Prak]

Dharas-Dorfs

saturnalia.

I'd just like to thank you for putting the image of dwarves celebrating the supposedly gay-orgy-filled saturnalia in my head... I'll send you the brain bleach bill.

[Gx1080]

The argument of whatever X roleplaying choice needs mechanics or not is completely subjective.

For example, I don't think that the goal is to let people play Orc Wizards.

[A Man In Black]

The argument of whatever X roleplaying choice needs mechanics or not is completely subjective.

For example, I don't think that the goal is to let people play Orc Wizards.

Then writing rules that allow orc wizards but make them shitty instead of just disallowing orc wizards is still retarded.

[Gx1080]

Yes it is. I'm not arguing otherwise.

[Swordslinger]

Because it's fairly well established that a -2 to int doesn't make orc wizards less intelligent, it just makes them less every-other-stat since you're just going to take points out of every other stat to make up the stat you want.

Pretty much. The correct way to do orcs would be to give them an intelligence cap, as opposed to a penalty.

Keep the simulationist aspect of orcs being dumb, and force them to put their points in other places. So the orc wizard would have a lot of con or strength to compensate.

[echoVanguard]

Why limit yourself to two equally shitty options? In this specific example I'd say "fuck that shit, +/- 1 modifiers are useless bookkeeping which we already have too much of"....if I were to redo DnD from scratch, racial ability modifiers would probably disappear for good, to be replaced by more interesting racial abilities.

The core problem is not that races have stat modifiers, but that the system is poorly balanced so that certain stat options are intrinsically superior to others. For example, a higher Intelligence score for a wizard grants such a huge bonus to everything you do that you are well-justified in dumping every stat to max out your intelligence. If multiple stats affected wizards' spellcasting and they did not have "patch" spells that shored up deficiencies in other stats, this would not be a problem. For example, if Intelligence affected bonus spells, Charisma affected DCs, and there were no spells to buff stats, hit points, or initiative, wizards might feel quite comfortable having a lower intelligence in exchange for a higher constitution or dexterity. The problem is that there is literally no scenario in current D&D editions where such a thing is conceivable.

Pretty much. The correct way to do orcs would be to give them an intelligence cap, as opposed to a penalty.

Stat minimums and maximums are an interesting way to get around the problem of point buy interacting with racial stat bonuses, but they're significantly more complex. What was one line of text becomes a big table, which makes figuring out your class/race combination take longer and potentially be less fun.

I'm pretty sure that if all races were mechanically the same, people would whine about a lack of flavor and about how the game is "souless number-crunching" or something....So, this is an endless circle on opinions.

I'm forced to agree. Certain races being more or less suited to a particular class or archetype adds value to the character creation process, especially if races can be effective members of a class they're not suited for by utilizing obscure customization options. For example, maybe a dwarf normally makes an unbelievably terrible sorcerer due to their -2 charisma, but there's a dwarf-only sorcerer prestige class that gives unique powers specially suited to a particular type of sorcery.

echo

edit: + is not -.

[RobbyPants]

Pretty much. The correct way to do orcs would be to give them an intelligence cap, as opposed to a penalty.

Keep the simulationist aspect of orcs being dumb, and force them to put their points in other places. So the orc wizard would have a lot of con or strength to compensate.

The way I'd handle it would be to give them something like a 25% or 50% boost to carrying capacity and something like illiteracy, or whatever. Then you get strong and dumb, but not at the expense of any classes. So, if he wants to be able to read, he loses some skill points (likely at the expense of Knowledge), and you have the same effect, but without trap options.

[virgil]

Or let them keep the -2 Int, but give them a +4 (or higher) to Strength if they take levels in wizard. It makes the customization option of making the grapplemancer more explicit.

Probably not a great idea, but one that popped into my head.

[Kot]

And 'this is retarded' isn't a point in any discussion. Especially when we're talking about an half-orc Wizard. Orc blood, and Barbarian as favored class. Martial weapons proficiency, rage, d12 hit points, new class skills. I'd totally go for it. It would make my Wizard a lot more useful to the party at lower levels, and also it's a credible as a 'story-driven choice'.

[Murtak]

The core problem is not that races have stat modifiers, but that the system is poorly balanced so that certain stat options are intrinsically superior to others.

Oh, definitely. If every stat or at least most stats were somewhat equally valuable to all classes you could totally go with stat modifiers and have them be separate, yet equal. However DnD being DnD everyone has dumpstats, and many characters only have one or two stats they care about at all. In other systems stat modifiers may be completely viable.

I'm forced to agree. Certain races being more or less suited to a particular class or archetype adds value to the character creation process, especially if races can be effective members of a class they're not suited for by utilizing obscure customization options. For example, maybe a dwarf normally makes an unbelievably terrible sorcerer due to their -2 charisma, but there's a dwarf-only sorcerer prestige class that gives unique powers specially suited to a particular type of sorcery.

I can't agree with that. Depending on the rest of your system a certain degree of "orcs are bad wizards" may unavoidable, but I don't see it as being desirable. What matters is that orcs differ from humans and elves and dwarves, and making them bad at wizarding and good at being barbarians may make the orc army different from an elven army, but it doesn't make orc characters different from other characters. Orcs just aren't going to be wizards very often, they are going to be barbarians and those barbarian will mechanically be remarkably similar to other races that happen to be good at being a barbarian.

Seriously, as far as character diversity goes, orcs getting Darkvision and elves being immune to sleep is much more interesting than the totality of their stat modifiers.

And 'this is retarded' isn't a point in any discussion. Especially when we're talking about an half-orc Wizard. Orc blood, and Barbarian as favored class. Martial weapons proficiency, rage, d12 hit points, new class skills. I'd totally go for it. It would make my Wizard a lot more useful to the party at lower levels, and also it's a credible as a 'story-driven choice'.

Actually it will not make your wizard more useful. That is exactly the issue with DnD multiclassing and casters and the Den as a whole has been over this hundreds of times. The conclusion is always the same: giving up caster levels is only worth it for the most ridiculous of powerups.

A level of barbarian certainly does not qualify. There is exactly one point where a barbarian/wizard is at all viable, and that is at character level 2. As a barbarian 1/wizard 1 you are decent with a sword and get nearly the same spells as a wizard. Your lower HPs and BAB are somewhat offset by a higher will save. MAD sucks, but whatever. Fair enough. Then you level up to level 3 and you are still using Sleep and Enlarge Person instead of Web, Command Undead and Invisibility. Fast forward to level 10 and you are now out 3 BAB, a further +5 or more on missing stats and class features and also down around 5 DC on your spells, not to mention you are using spells 2 entire spell levels below whats appropriate. Oh, and you can't cast spells while raging if I remember correctly.

Seriously, the choice of words may not be kind, but taking levels of barbarian as a wizard is in fact retarded.

[Gx1080]

Is amusing how ALL discussions about D&D 3.5 always come to: "Wizards are overpowered".

[Judging__Eagle]

Kot, Murtak watched you jump out of the frying pan, and into the fire. Then crushed your skull with the frying pan.

You basically said "X isn't an issue because of Y options available to characters"; except you completely forgot that Y is just as big a balance issue as X.

Honestly, the best and only way to resolve these sorts of problems is to

1) have a Luminary Character's species be

a) Flaboure! Lotz of flaboure!, and don't spare the garlic and spices.

If you're playing a Large Horned Bovine Species, you're a Yag-volk in Tibet/Nepal; a Minos-Taur from Crete/Atlantis; a Musk-Ox from Columbi-Ameriggo Tundras; a Zebu from Africa; an Auroch from Europa Forests; or a Bison from Columbi-Ameriggo Nord or Sud.

Where you designing your character, their region of origin determines their cultural background, and initial costuming and prop choices.

Cultures are From Earth, because the Eberron, Oriental Adventures/Rokugan, Forgotten Realms, Al-Qadim (aka the ancient), Greyhawk, Dark Sun, World of Warcraft, Everquest and every other knock-off game are incredibly shallow and culturally appropriationist in their approach.

Doing a "sort of like" of a culture is... deeply steeped in white, western, privilege, and is highly offensive, racist and culturalist in it's approach.

Only if everything, including white western/european/american culture is treated with the same degree of parody that Al-Qadim and Rokugan treated the Middle East and Nippon, should a setting feel fair or just in its treatment of different world cultures.

So, if your "big-nosed white devils" worship a zombie pagan child-god who was killed on a torture device reserved for the worst criminals. A god based off of the Jewish 1/4 god, and mixed in with two other elements to create a nouveaux trinity-god, to say nothing of their 'borrowed' mother goddess (La/Ishtar/Aphrodite/etc.); as well as hundreds of idol-saints (that rival villages fight to the death in the name of), you're 'maybe' going in the right direction.

If not, then stick to the known facts for everyone, because parodying all cultures except for one set of cultures is deeply offensive to all humans, even the cultures not being parodied.

The only proper way is to base the content on actually known facts, present the culture as being directly named on the original. As well as allow individuals to know what their content is actually based on, so that they may properly explore and learn more on their own.

b) Ez-Access to 'Innate Powahs'

Powers like "be big!" or "can fly" can come from different sources. Some sources include: Channeled Powahs; Itamz Powahs, and Innate Powahs. A Water Mage can fly b/c of water condensation in the air and "Mumbo-Jumbo", a set of Fire-Jet Boots let anyone fly; and a mature Yazata-Garuda has arm-wings which allow flight.

I really liked the fact that the Tomes content allowed for +0 LA versions of 'powerful' creatures; as well as allowed 'more powerful species' to play with standard characters without making everyone cry.

If, in a level less system, a Luminary Character's Species allowed them to buy "innate" versions of what would 'normally' be things people have to add to their character sheet as 'magical' powers/buffs; then both balance and uniqueness in species can be preserved.

Thus, in this case, an "orc" has the ability to buy "strength" as an innate power, but things like crudeness and slow-witted would have to be penalties that they picked up for bonus points; or not picked up at all if they wanted to not buy 'strength' and isntead wanted to pick up Logic or Intuition.

and

2) Powahs are not counter synergistic; ever

The notion that a characters growth is counter synergistic is so mind-bendingly stupid as to be an outright declaration that the creator has no idea what learning or development is.

A Barbarian; a character that has been picking up "Assault", with a tiny edging of "Defense" and "Missile"; along with some "Sentry" and "Covertness" (and enough "Portage" to carry their supplies and tools) should not be made 'weaker' if they start picking up magical powers of the Earth kind; nor of the Wind, Water, or Fire kind; nor of the Nature, Blood or Psychic kind; let alone Blank-Chroma, Partial-Chroma or Full-Chroma powers.

The barbarian who is an disciple of the Grey Winds of magic actually sounds like a big deal, and that's something that the game system should allow.

If anything, as a character gets more and more powerful, they should be able to combine powers that were not aligned, and even were opposed together, because when the Barbarian Blue-Orange mage starts flying around and projecting water-fire beams from their mouth, while chopping up a bunch of dragons; that's not a bad thing. At least, not in my humble opinion.




I'm also in favour of an After Sundown system where 0 is the base that a character has in any power; while 1+ means that said entry is notable above/beyond normal humanoid, and has to be recorded.

I'm also in favour of a game system where players have increasing complexity available to their characters.

Basic Game Play is quite literally a card game; players get a bunch of cards they can pick up for their 'character'; and hold their cards in their hand (or have them in a deck when more powerful? and with more cards?), and play cards to defeat encounters/challenges/scenes.

Medium Game Play involves using After Sundown style character sheets for "non-combat" elements of storytelling, NPC interactions; characters affecting the environment, etc. Cards or Dice could be used to determine action success and scale/scope of success.

Advanced Game Play would use character sheets and the card game together, with some parts of combat relying on more of the character sheet; and some parts of non-combat allowing the card game to influence it.

... or something like that. The constant denigration about 4e being a card game is.... informative, sad, and enlightening. Basic game play can be a card game, and it doesn't hurt anyone. It just needs to be a fun card game. I've had people who have never played TTRPGs play Munchkin with no problem.

My goal would be to have the 'basic' game be a 'sort of' munchkin where players can take their character from one adventure to the next. So, crossing between the area where CCG players have "decks", and "Munchkin" where your available cards are the defining features of your character.

[Prak]

...oh look, JE is busy playing the race card and accusing people who thought "Hey, this culture would make a cool setting" of thinking "Hahahah... I will mercilessly ravage the culture because I'm an evil white guy and all things are my play thing! Mwahahahahahahahahahahah!"

JE, I've avoided this because we're kinda sorta friends, but let me know when you get over this stupid "Everything is dildosracism!" thing.

Edit: Note, the guys who were working on Al Quadim were actually really concerned about coming off as offensive and took great care to find muslim friends and show it to them to make sure there wasn't anything wrong with it. It's literally no worse, and probably much better, a portrayal of ancient arabic culture than Disney's Aladdin.

[CatharzGodfoot]

I happen to like JE's brand of 'It's OK to be racist against any group as long as you're also biased against some other arbitrary group that I've chosen (but am not a part of)'. Seems like a good setting.

[Gx1080]

Off-topic observation, but I think that J_E is a closet racist. He seems too fixated on the subject.

[Finkin]

He sounds more to me like a grad student of some Anthropology/Sociology subset who has somehow, like many grad students, become convinced of the astounding importance of their chosen field of study.

[K]

He sounds more to me like a grad student of some Anthropology/Sociology subset who has somehow, like many grad students, become convinced of the astounding importance of their chosen field of study.

Actually, you get that kind of thing in Into. to Anthro courses. The grad students don't actually give a fuck since they tend to have a much broader perspective.

That being said, I agree with JE on the point that it's pretty racist to give non-physical stat mods. Some people being stronger or faster is fine, but once you start assigning mental stuff around it gets pretty dicey.

Honestly, the entire way that DnD sets up races is pretty sketchy.

Since most people tend to use mental stats as a crutch for bad RP anyway, I think there is a strong argument to just play/design games without them.

[Murtak]

Since most people tend to use mental stats as a crutch for bad RP anyway, I think there is a strong argument to just play/design games without them.

I think stats like Presence or Wits can be made to work. Most people can easily roleplay being a little slow and they can just get more leeway in how long they can think over decisions, so quickness of thought should be doable. Conversely intelligence is a horrible stat because no one can roleplay being smarter than they are. DnD of course has pretty much the worst setup ever, with not one but two "how smart am I?"-stats and an exceedingly badly defined charisma stat.

[RadiantPhoenix]

That being said, I agree with JE on the point that it's pretty racist to give non-physical stat mods. Some people being stronger or faster is fine, but once you start assigning mental stuff around it gets pretty dicey.

Regardless of racism, it also makes roleplaying more difficult -- how do you even figure out what a 30 INT wizard would do in a situation? How about a 30 WIS cleric? How about a 32 INT 33 WIS 32 CHA gold dragon?

[Starmaker]

I think stats like Presence or Wits can be made to work. Most people can easily roleplay being a little slow and they can just get more leeway in how long they can think over decisions, so quickness of thought should be doable. Conversely intelligence is a horrible stat because no one can roleplay being smarter than they are. DnD of course has pretty much the worst setup ever, with not one but two "how smart am I?"-stats and an exceedingly badly defined charisma stat.

Wut? Are you high? If people can roleplay being a little slow, it should follow that they can also roleplay being a little stupid, and vice versa: being smarter than you are and being more quick-witted than you should be equally difficult to properly roleplay.

Anyway, in D&D self-enforced suckage equals douchebaggery, because if you're not pulling your weight, the whole party suffers. Smarter than IRL can happen if you don't face time constraints (say, a forum game or a 1-on-1 between-session chat with the MC when you can take your sweet time ransacking the Den's treasure trove of Frank Trollman quotes).