Revising Tome Armor

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Post by Josh_Kablack »

Thinking about weight, encumberence and GP costs in the context of a Tome game:

At 1st level:
  • The assumed worst case for Strength is going to be Str 6 - you took Str as your dump stat and a race which penalizes it further.
  • the assumed average case is going to be Str 10
  • the assumed good case is going to be Str 14 - because the PHB outright says that if you don't have at least one ability of 14 or higher, you get to reroll, so anyone with Str as their first priority will have at least a 14
  • The assumed best case is going to be Str 20 - you have the max starting strength and are playing in a game where there's a race that gives an additional +2 to it. (yeah, you can exceed this via Core BBN rage, or if Orcs are playable or in a couple other ways).
So at 1st level we have light/medium/ heavy loads of
worst 20/40/60
average 33/66/100
good 58/116/175
best 133/266/400

Next I'll throw out a rough assumption that in general armor will be about half a character's total load, and state that I'm just ignoring size-category weight shifting for the moment.

Thus, anything we want to encourage gnome illusionists to start out with should probably be 10 lbs or less, anything which should be hefty enough to make average-strength characters consider encumbrence penalties should be 20 lbs, anything which we feel should give some penalties to characters who aren't Str characters should be at least 35 lbs, and anything we want to discourage 1st level characters from wearing should be at least 60 lbs, and if we absolutely positively have to keep the half-orc barbarian out of it, it needs to be over 400 lbs.

By 4th level, I'll assume assume that the worst and average cases are the same, but that the good and best cases have increased their Str by 1 from levelup and also have a +2 Str enhancement widget

making them and their Light/Medjum/Heavy loads
Good 17 Str 86/176/260
Best 23 Str 200/400/600

Core Armor goes from 10 lbs for padded up to 50 Lbs for Plate, with the potential to add +5 and +10 lbs for locked gauntlet and spikes.

So as initial numbers, I think I'll try:
  • Cloth/Non Armors should be 5 lbs,
  • Leather/Light Armors should be 10 lbs,
  • Chain/Medium armors should be 25 lbs
  • Plate/Heavy Armor should be 50 lbs
Thus anybody not being hit by a bunch of ray of enfeeblement can run around in leather without sweating encumberence. Thus you can wear Chain as a Str 10 character - but if so you're not carrying much else and risking penalties with a shield and weapon or a heavy weapon. Thus you are at penalties in plate unless you are a Str primary character, and even then you're cutting it really tight on encumberence if you didn't boost Str further than 14.

Possibly these number get tweaked for coverage catgories and/or to balance out individual suits, possibly they stay fixed for simplicity and uniformity and the max dex limit is the only consequence of increased coverage.

Next up, GP costs, and while the Tomes were written with an eye towards ditching wealth by level, those are still the pricing guidelines around treasure parcels so my only other option is to throw darts at a wall.

Starting gold by class
  • pally, rgr,ftr 150 avg 240 max
  • rog, clric, 125 avg, 200 max
  • bbn, brd, 100 avg, 160 max
Thus anything priced at or above 200+ gp is "great treasure" which only a handful of PCs will even have a chance to afford at game start; anything priced at 241+ gp is something that just can't be purchased at game start, and I move on to the WBL table.

WBL:
2nd 900
3rd 2700
4th 5400
5th 9000
6 13000

Thus an item with a 1000+gp tag is not purchasable until halfway through 2nd level, 2500+gp is not attainable until just before 3rd level, 5000+ gp likely means 4th level, and 10k slightly before hitting 6th level. Although that's assuming that characters are just getting one big ticket item instead of splitting loot between weapons, shield, armor and trinkets - so realistically those will lag by one to three levels.

But in addition to purchasing power, there's drop rate to consider, and thus a look at the suggested value of treasure parcels per encounter level

1st: 300
2nd: 600
3rd: 900
4th: 1200
5th: 1600
6th: 2000
7th 2600
8th: 3400
9th: 4500
10: 5,800

Thus characters can find items of 300 gp or less as first-level drops, but aren't seeing 1000 gp items until 4th, 2500 gp items until 7th nor 5k items until 5th

Thus, most of the armors should probably be priced under 1000 gp so that they can be found as random drops early in the typical game, 2500 gp items only get dropped at levels where people have cohorts and anything over 5k is so unlikely to be a random drop before the game approaches crazytown that we can assume they are only custom-made items.

At the high end, the concern is what armors should be wishable and which shouldn't, and while the base answer should be "all of them" some of the particulars depend on a couple factors:

Firstly: which version of wish is being used. 3.5 Wish only explicitly creates a "nonmagic" item of up to 25k gp and does not have a price tag on what the "create a magic item" option does. The 3.0 Wish explicitly could create magic items of up to 15k

Secondly; what the hell to book Fragment of gears abilities have for pricetags anyways? Frank's numbers seem to be lowball compared to what many MCs actually use, and I've seen ranges up to twice those costs.

It should totally be possible to wish up any suit of armor with a magic numeric bonus on it. It should probably even be possible to wish any suit of armor with a Minor Quality on it - and to achieve that in with the restrictions of a 15k wish and Frank's numbers that means that armors base prices should cap out at 11,000 GP - with a cap somewhat lower in games where the MC is charging more for minor qualities.

For comparison: original version tome armors go from 1 gp up to 10,000 GP and core armors go from 5 gp up to 1500 before you got into masterwork and special materials, which could take it up to 16500 for Adamant Full Plate.

Edit: draft costs an weights assigned to everything. Weights are uniform by category for simplicity and uniformity.

Costs are a bit of fitting into above musings and a bit of dartboard / flavor considerations - the idea was that different armors at the same dex/armor spot should all cost slightly different prices and their should be an upward trend for heavier armors and the cheaper and more expensive armors should vary in scaling type and stuff should try to kinda match up with materials that are cheap / expensive in default settings. The numbers should work within game parameters, but I'm not gonna even try to pretent that they accurately reflect utility of any ability set compared to any other ability set.

Next up: actually getting to the shields.
Last edited by Josh_Kablack on Sat Jan 07, 2012 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Red_Rob »

If you're planning to use WBL to figure out costs the discussion in the WBL thread we had a while ago might be of use. Particularly because the general consensus was that characters needed a lot more of it.

On a seperate note, I have some issues with the Tome armours as they currently stand after playing a campaign with them for a while, which has led me to a few conclusions. Firstly, I'm not convinced they need to have a set of abilities that gets more complex as you go up levels.

Okay, okay, I know I'm preaching heresy here but hear me out. Scaling feats work really well, because although they add more complexity to the game, that complexity comes up only during levelling. During levelling players expect to be rifling through books and assessing new abilities, so it fits with the flow of the game and even gives players more things to look forward to (which is the primary reason for having a levelling system when all's said and done). Armour, though, is something that can be changed at any time. That means reading and reevaluating up to 4 abilities against 4 other abilities in the middle of a session, along with the stat changes and ability gains and losses that go with it. This is the same reason I'm against Feat-changing abilities such as Problem Solver, by the way.

Secondly, it seems really weird that some of the Tome armours are available in non-magical versions. I mean, my armour is made from hope or includes a trapped demon and it doesn't radiate magic? What's more it can be further enchanted to provide me with, in total, up to 4 scaling abilities, a scaling stat bonus and another unrelated ability?

Now, the reason that the scaling abilities were introduced in the Tome was because certain armours were first pick every time, but that is because armours don't have enough stats. Weapons have all sorts of sliders that can be tweaked to provide benefits and tradeoffs, from damage to crit multiplier, threat range, reach, handedness and proficiency level. Armour only gets AC, Max Dex (which is just another calculation to get AC) and ACP. So I agree armours need something extra, but not a full set of scaling abilities.

After looking at the armours, most of them have one major ability that you are going to choose them for, and the rest are fairly so-so. You get Adamantine armour (Umlaut armour in your version) for DR, you get Dragonscale for the ER. So why not just pare the armours back to one ability or bonus each? That would differentiate them, and would cut down on the compexity level. The bonus could still scale by level, so DR=BaB would still be possible, or it could just be a flat thing like +3 to Hide checks or an extra swift action.

Now, the nature of the bonuses you choose would most likely make some of the armours explicitly low level items and others explicitly high level, but that's what happens at the moment anyway and besides as long as there's still a range to choose from I don't see thats a bad thing. Low level characters totally should be wearing Chain shirts and Breastplates, whilst high level characters choose between Adamantine armour or Naga hide. High level armour should probably also explictly count as a magic item, with abilities to reflect that.
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Post by Josh_Kablack »

On a seperate note, I have some issues with the Tome armours as they currently stand after playing a campaign with them for a while, which has led me to a few conclusions. Firstly, I'm not convinced they need to have a set of abilities that gets more complex as you go up levels.......
That's actually a pretty reasonable argument.

However, It is not an argument I am amenable to after having written like 10,000 words of rules text for scaling abilities, nor is it an argument you should even bother making after having taken the time to read said 10,000 words - a quick skim would have revealed that I was keeping the scaling ability approach you dislike and saved you time.

If you, or anyone at all, wants to write and post a "Tome Armors: Revised to Single Abilities for Simplicity" patch, great. I'll take a look at it and if I like it, I'll run it past any potential Tome playgroup I may have in the future.
Last edited by Josh_Kablack on Fri Jan 13, 2012 2:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Josh_Kablack »

apparently, this material is seeing some use amongst people's whose lives haven't killed their game groups

Since I've had a couple PMs asking me about it, here're the unfinished, not-quite formatted and damn-sure not balanced notes I had for shields. (note that there are fewer and at lower max AC than the original list - that much was an intentional correction)
ShieldShield BonusNon Prof PenBAB typeSkill Rank typeSpell typeGP CostWeight
[row color=green]*
***Shields***
Buckler+1-1AdamantIronSilver
Large Shield+2-2SpikedHideDarkwood
[row color=green]*
***Great Shields***
Great Shields+4-4Tower ShieldKite ShieldBone Wall
More Great Shields+4-4Ice AegisKappa ShellPsychic (aka Tower Shield of Iron Will)


Adamant Buckler
+1 BAB: You may use a weapon with the hand using the Buckler (including two handed weapons), but you suffer a -1 penalty to attack with that weapon.
+4 BAB: Any weapon you wield with the hand using this buckler (including two handed weapons) counts as Adamant for purposes of overcoming damage reduction
+7 BAB: When you use the Expertise option, you receive a dodge bonus equal to twice the penalty you take on attacks. You are still limited to a maximum dodge bonus equal to your BAB, but now you can reach that maximum with a lesser penalty.
+10 BAB: You gain Acid resistance 10

Cold Iron Buckler
a favorit among swashbucklers, this scales with ranks in Tumble
4 Ranks Tumble: You may use a weapon with the hand using the Buckler (including two handed weapons), but you suffer a -1 penalty to attack with that weapon.
7 Ranks Tumble Any weapon you wield with the hand using this buckler (including two handed weapons) counts as Cold Iron for purposes of overcoming damage reduction
10 Ranks Tumble : When you use the Expertise option, you receive a dodge bonus equal to twice the penalty you take on attacks. You are still limited to a maximum dodge bonus equal to your BAB, but now you can reach that maximum with a lesser penalty.
13 Ranks Tumble You gain Cold resistance 10

Silver Buckler
1st level spells: You may use a weapon with the hand using the Buckler (including two handed weapons) but you suffer a -1 penalty to attack with that weapon
3rd level spells: Any weapon you wield with the hand using this buckler (including two handed weapons) counts as Alchemical Silver for purposes of overcoming damage reduction
4th level spells: When you use the Expertise option, you receive a dodge bonus equal to twice the penalty you take on attacks. You are still limited to a maximum dodge bonus equal to your BAB, but now you can reach that maximum with a lesser penalty.
5th level spells: You gain Electricty resistance 10

Spiked Shield:
+1 BAB: You may use this shield as an offhand light piercing weapon that deals 1d6 (medium) and has a x3 crit multiplier. If you are proficient with this shield, you are proficient in using it as a weapon
+4 BAB: Whenever an opponent misses you with a melee attack, that provokes an AoO from you. You may only take AoO provoked thusly with the spiked shield.
+7:You can throw your shield, using it to make a thrown weapon attack or to performing any special combat maneuver (disarm, trip, bullrush, etc) with a range increment equal to twice your natural reach.
+10 BAB: You may attack with the spiked shield (including thrown attacks) as a swift action

hide Shield:
4 rank intimidate: You can use your shield as a point of leverage, adding the shild bonus to Disarm and Bullrush attempts.
7 ranks intimidate: you add your shield bonus (including any enhancement) to your saves vs fear effects
10 ranks intimidate: whenever any attack or effect targets any item on your person, you may choose to have that effect target your shield instead. This applies against disarm, sunder, rusting, magic drain, dispel, disjunction and all similar effects
13 ranks intimidate: All allies and followers within your reach may benefit from your shield bonus instead of their own

Darkwood Shield:
1st level spells: when you fail at casting defensively you only lose the action, not the spell
3rd level spells: add shield bonus to resist / escape grapples
4th level spells: sac Xth level spell for lesser globe of invuln
5th level spells: sac 5th level spell for spell resistance


Great Shields:

Tower Shield (bab
+1 BAB
+4 BAB
+7 BAB: Auto-Succeed on a Fort Save as an immediate action
+10 BAB: spend move action to become immune to all ranged attacks.
?add shield bonus to DR?

Ice Aegis (bab): formed from never-melt Ice
+1 BAB: Fire and Cold Resistance 10
+4 BAB Dispel [Fire] and [Water] effects with a touch, BAB=Caster level for dispel check
+7 BAB Auto-Succed on a will save as an immediate action
+10 BAB Fire and Cold Immunity (absorbtion to temp HP?)

Kappa Shell (skill)

Kite Shield (handle animal?)
4 ranks: add shield bonus to ride? and tumble? checks
7 ranks: reduce critical hit severity by one multiplier
10 ranks
13 ranks

Psychic (spells)
1st: remove fear
3rd: nondetection
4th: immune to stun and daze
5th: as immediate action, succeed on a will save.

Bone Wall (spell)
1st: +2 bonus to save vs [Death] or Necromancy spells and effects
3rd:: Recover 5 HP every time you cast a spell from the school of Necromancy or use a (Sp) ability that acts as such a spell.
4th: You gain positive/negative energy resistance 10 and +2 turn resistance
5th: Whenever you are the target of any effect you may choose whether you wish to be treated as Undead or living against that effect. Thus a living wielder can be immune to poison as undead are or an undead bearer can be immune to a Turning attempt.
Last edited by Josh_Kablack on Sat May 19, 2012 4:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Koumei »

So apparently, bucklers are actually held with handles, the way Lego soldiers do it, and not strapped to the side - whereas small shields ARE strapped to the side and not held. So D&D has it the wrong way round.

That said, I cannot fathom holding a small shield in the way bucklers are apparently held, it seems weird. I'd much rather the shield be attached to my forearm, as I'm usually blocking with my forearm anyway, and I can't help but imagine any attack just knocking a shield out of my weak grip.

Anyway, whether you want to change that or not, I would suggest letting people throw normal bucklers because LolCaptainAmerica.

I'll look at the rest later, but I do like the idea. And the game is not dead, just sleeping on hold.
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Post by Kaelik »

Think of it as punching people's attacks to protect yourself.

Then it becomes awesome.
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Post by OgreBattle »

Viking shields are held like lego shields too.

You can find a lot of info here on shields in general but with a focus on that "medium shield"
http://www.hurstwic.org/history/article ... hnique.htm

also, dueling shields
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Post by Surgo »

Hey Josh,

Mind if I upload this to the wiki? I think I'll just stick it right in Races of War where the old armor stuff was. This is great work and also tells us how much stuff costs for those games not using Book of Gears.

Also, ever finish the shields stuff? So close to being done! I'm about to play a game for the first time in ages, so this is relevant to me.
Last edited by Surgo on Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by TarkisFlux »

Reaction chain, 10 ranks - how long are those temp hp supposed to last anyway? End of next turn? Until used? Something else?
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Post by Josh_Kablack »

Surgo wrote:Hey Josh,

Mind if I upload this to the wiki?
Josh_Kablack wrote:so much as I have any say over it, anyone here is free to do whatever they want with this material. You may freely repost this elsewhere, rewrite it, modify it, use in your games, publish for mad profit, etc.
Surgo wrote:Also, ever finish the shields stuff? So close to being done! I'm about to play a game for the first time in ages, so this is relevant to me.
Nope. Sorry.
TarkisFlux wrote:
Reaction chain, 10 ranks - how long are those temp hp supposed to last anyway? End of next turn? Until used? Something else?
Seeing as they can be regained as an immediate action, the only durations that differ functionally are pretty much "one round" or "more than one round" - the intent was "more than one round" so I'm gonna say go with "until lost or the armor is shed" that sounds like I planned it out.
Last edited by Josh_Kablack on Sun Jun 17, 2012 6:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Surgo »

While uploading, I modified the weights a little bit for more differentiation between the three coverage tiers.
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Post by Surgo »

The spiked shield is neat, but it seems quite poor without Two-Weapon Fighting. Is this true or am I missing something?
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Post by Josh_Kablack »

Surgo wrote:The spiked shield is neat, but it seems quite poor without Two-Weapon Fighting. Is this true or am I missing something?

Well that is a very very rough draft - as I posted above they never did get finished nor edited.

The core 2wf penalties are problematically harsh, what with the -8 to light offhand attacks...but that's not something I'm trying to revise in a fan netbook revision about armor. In addition to the grammar corrections, the word "offhand" should probably be removed, thus allowing for the guy what fights with just a spiked shield. Furthermore, it's probably reasonable to provide a clarification that "may use" means you only take relevant 2wf penalties in rounds you actually attack with the spiked shield. It's stupid to have a shield that penalizes swording attacks whenever you carry it around. Even then, it is mainly gonna be of use to characters with 2wf or Soldier Ettin stance or other similar abilties.
Last edited by Josh_Kablack on Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Surgo »

I'm not sure if you should take the 2wf penalties at all, let alone in a round you're not using the sword. If you have the shield feat you've spent that feat, if not it's part of your class -- it penalizes attacking with the shield so heavily you might as well not have the shield abilities.

The reason I bring this up is because the Spiked Shield should be a reasonable option for anyone who doesn't have Great Shield proficiency but has a good BAB. As it is it's only a reasonable option for, well, like you said, guys who have TWF / Ettin Stance / etc.

Actual use case note: Barbarians don't get Great Shield. Adamant Buckler is kind of neat because you get a two-handed weapon with it, but you are probably already using an adamantine weapon just for the benefits that gives. Expertise isn't all that useful on Barbarians either. The only other option is Spiked Shield, and you may or may not have TWF.

Hide Shield's 13 rank ability is a little weird for a character like a Barbarian, which I'd bet as the #1 user for this shield. Any idea for a different ability there?
Last edited by Surgo on Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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