Min Max is the Devil

[Murtak]

You can not always bring everyone up to speed though. In DnD you literally can not bring a straight fighter up to the level of an optimized caster will bring to the table. And even a prestiged-to-the-gills warrior type character using 20 books and being handed three times the equipment of the caster will have a hard time catching up a core-only wizard who merely picks his spells wisely. I am seriously not even exaggerating here. When your char sheets reads Fighter 2, Paladin 3, Samurai 1, Exalted Champion 1, Anointed Champion 3, Planar Champion 2, Warmaster 3, features feats from 6 different books alongside martial adept powers, items from dragon magazine and layered companions maybe it is time to acknowledge that some problems can not be fixed by catering to the highrest denominator. And even if you did build such characters for everyone they would still go and cry in a corner every time non-combat encounters happen.

And if we are talking about casters actually exploiting some of the nastier stuff that is out there you do not want anyone to be at that power level.


Of course if bringing everyone up to speed is simple and a matter of telling them not to pick toughness and weapon focus - that is something you should absolutely do. But that is not always possible or desirable.

[Dogbert]

In DnD you literally can not bring a straight fighter up to the level of an optimized caster will bring to the table.

Solution:

1) Don't play DnD (or any other "haves/have nots" system)
2) Don't suffer militant basket weavers who insist that just because they choose to suck, so should everybody else.

[Libertad]

In DnD you literally can not bring a straight fighter up to the level of an optimized caster will bring to the table.

Solution:

1) Don't play DnD (or any other "haves/have nots" system)
2) Don't suffer militant basket weavers who insist that just because they choose to suck, so should everybody else.

Solution 3: Replace Fighter/Monk/Paladin with Warblade/Swordsage/Crusader.

Solution 4: Incorporate classes, The Edge mechanics, and scaling feats from the Frank and K Tome Series.

Solution 5: Play a martially-focused Cleric and call yourself a Fighter. Your spells are secret martial techniques of inner focus. Flavor over mechanics!

[Fuchs]

Solution 6: Agree to a power level everyone is comfortable with, and nerf/boost characters accordingly.

[Libertad]

Solution 6: Agree to a power level everyone is comfortable with, and nerf/boost characters accordingly.

Fuchs wins the thread.

[shadzar]

Solution 6: Agree to a power level everyone is comfortable with, and nerf/boost characters accordingly.

flaw... you might as well be forcing people to play 4th edition that like fighters from 2nd edition.

"boosting" characters is much more problematic than "nerfing" them. a player that CAN optimize a character fully can easily play with a nerfed character, but forcing a player not accustomed to playing a "more optimized" character will onyl cause problems. sometimes those problems can be worse than getting a new player to understand ALL the little parts. effectively forcing an unfamiliar playstyle on them that is no so easily adjusted.

and if anyone tries to claim an optimizer cant adjust to play a weaker character, or one with less-munchkin.. then i say that person probably isnt fit for RPGs.

it is easy to take away and not use parts, that to add parts and expect them to be understood, or WANTED.

i ignored feats when i had to play 3rd, because i dont like them. everyone else had to adjust with my character not having ANY since i rarely used anything that required "activation". the ongoing effects that werent accounting tabulations people remembered, but even the combat bonuses, the other players didnt want to calculate and we just accepted my character didnt have any of them. the game played fine without forcing me to learn or use them. though one player was insisting "if i wanted to play i should learn the rules". well i did NOT want to play Terd Edition at all. i was the only one available with the time to fill the slot so EVERYONE else, could continue to play without the DM having to do work to juggle the encounters for the thing the party was missing BEYOND the number of adventurers.

it would be best to find out HOW people want to play prior to paly starting, and stick with that level of "optimizing" or whatever, rather than backtrack and adjust all the time.

EX: the character i made had 50kgp due to WBL that i had to get due to the party level or whatever, so i have to meet that as entering. they didnt need to adjust to my new character.

[Midnight_v]

Solution 6: Agree to a power level everyone is comfortable with, and nerf/boost characters accordingly.

Fuchs wins the thread.

The problem with that is, muthafuckas don't know what the "comfortable level of power" is!
My brother was a cleric of some shitty god 2 weapon fought with 2 weapons some kind of hammers I think, I dont' know if he monkey gripped the or whatever, regardless he'd nerfed the shit out of himself seriously being funny and you know...
Some dude at the group stared bitching about it? Not because "Quit fucking around dude... wtf" but because and I quote (told to me after by the dm): "That guys a totally min-maxer man *whine*, I mean I'm a warmage, but he's throwing down all these dice every round, it so broke! DO SOMETHING, MC!"
...
...
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It's not so much that bringing people up to speed is a waste, or that there are assholes ruining games through "Ooooh, build magic".

Its that the people who are saying shit like "Min-maxing is the Devil!" don't know what the fuck they're talking about. About half of them still come in wanting, no wait EXPECTING, for it to be some kind of magical tea party bullshit.
Most of the others WANT to play something they think is cool but can't be fucking bothered to learn the system.

This shit leads to simple "Kill the witch" mentality, which is the bullshit spread all over the other forums which really, we kinda hate.

[CapnTthePirateG]

Midnight_v:

PLUS. FUCKING. ONE.

[Libertad]

Stuff

The problem you described is more due to a failure of understanding and communication as well as inter-player hostility to variant play styles. Such people who are vehemently hostile will inevitably bring down the group, even if all character builds are on the "same level."

A group consensus decision on preferred "optimization level" of games can be the best solution at times, provided that the players are all good friends who know what they all want. Even better if the rules-savvy players communicate why their builds are not as "ZOMG overpowered!!!" as they seem.

But this requires reasonable communication between individuals.

[Fuchs]

If the group can't agree on what power level they want then they should not play together, period. Given how much of a range the "power level" of D&D has that'd be like not agreeing on whether they are playing Shadowrun or bunnies and burrows.

[Krusk]

I'm not good with the words. Midnight illustrated my point.

So whats the secret magic words/ritual to make them get it? Because there is way too much of this shit. I'm at the point when someone mentions RPGs off hand I pretend I don't know what they mean, just to get out of the "Pathfinder is bascially the next jesus, well outside second edition. Minmaxers and munckins ruined DND amiright?" that follows. I should be excited to meet new players, not feigning disinterest.

[shadzar]

you have to decide which is more trouble. and if you want to take the lesser of the two evils. or play a game where you can really do the min-maxing optimized shit, because the players dont have that many options that you cant maintain.

if you are the DM, you, YOU decide what you are going to run.

[Libertad]

I'm not good with the words. Midnight illustrated my point.

So whats the secret magic words/ritual to make them get it? Because there is way too much of this shit. I'm at the point when someone mentions RPGs off hand I pretend I don't know what they mean, just to get out of the "Pathfinder is bascially the next jesus, well outside second edition. Minmaxers and munckins ruined DND amiright?" that follows. I should be excited to meet new players, not feigning disinterest.

If this opinion is among your regular group, try something along these lines the next time the Stormwind Fallacy comes up: "Hey guys, there's been times when playing where some PCs were drastically more powerful than others even though we're all the same level. In this, I had one of the more powerful PCs. There have been times where the Druid just mauled the opposition, or when the Barbarian couldn't contribute in the fight against the ghosts. I'm not trying to sabotage the game or anything like that. That's the thing about the system: Several of the guys who worked 3rd Edition intentionally designed the game with intentionally subpar options that seemed awesome in order to 'reward system mastery.' I think that this was a terrible decision, for we all want to be awesome and the rules to be clear. I don't like being upstaged at my own role any more than you guys do, but spellcasters just have plain more options than the other guys and can do things better. I think that it's fun when the entire group is awesome and can contribute to game in their own way without needing to sit on the sidelines most of the time or be utterly dependent on certain character types to be effective. I make powerful characters not out of some juvenile power fantasy or to give the DM a headache, I want to contribute to the adventure and be efficient at combat to lessen the chances of Total Party Kills."

Now if the group is reluctant due to the large amount of dumpster-diving through splatbooks to make effective noncasters, sympathize with them. A lot of gamers approach D&D as a "beer and pretzels" hobby or don't have a lot of time due to work and family. Tell them that there are ways to make strong, efficient characters who can compete alongside team Cleric/Druid/Wizard, and that you'll help them if necessary. Try suggesting the Tome of Battle; that sourcebook's a godsend for players who want to be awesome or mimic their favorite sword-fighter video game character. You can also present them with house rules from the Tome series, such as the scaling feats and some of the classes (probably not Races of War, if they desire a power level below CoDzilla but around Factotum/Tome of Battle).

Players with dogmatic viewpoints will not be convinced, unless they're long-time friends who respect your opinion and can listen to alternate views. If they're so close-minded that view a game or playstyle as irredeemably wrong and the above argument doesn't work, then you're better off doing some other fun activity with them instead that you can all agree on.

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/ ... o_Library)
I think this handy FAQ is a good newbie's guide to Min-Maxing and helps explain the mindset from a fellow optimizer.

With a game as popular as D&D, you're going to have fellow players disagree with you on rules and flavor and the "right" kind of game. It's really a question if you can tolerate each other's differences.

A possible option for meeting new players with optimization-friendly views is to use online meet-ups and games. There is an active optimization community around the WotC CharOp Boards, the MinMax Boards, and right here. Believe it or not, there are character optimizers for Pathfinder and 4th Edition, too.

[infected slut princess]

(probably not Races of War, if they desire a power level below CoDzilla but around Factotum/Beguiler

Huh? Beguiler just destroys fucking Factotum. You put them on either side of the slash like they are teh same, but Beguiler can play with CoDzilla and Factotum can't unless you cheat.

[Libertad]

Changed to Factotum/Tome of Battle for a better estimate.

BTW, what do you think about the core of the message and proposed solutions?

[infected slut princess]

Stuff like ToB is helpful, but it doesn't really go far enough to help the "beer and pretzels" players you are talking about. You still need to put some work into a "build" to make a ToB competent character that doesn't suck as you start to gain levels.

But the basic point you guys are talking about, about how communication is important BUT people can't agree on the power level they want or think is appropriate, is pretty interesting. That is a problem, and honestly because D&D as it exists is so all over the place balance-wise, AND people have such backwards fucking conceptions of "appropriate power level" or "balance," there is no "real" solution. All you can do is have a DM who will make things work as well as possible. Whether that means straight-up making an effective character for some dumb-ass basketweaver, or simply offering suggestions on how to not blatantly suck ass, or giving the Fighter artifact-grade sword and armor at level 9 -- unfortunately for Krusk, there is no magic way to make people understand. At least, that's all you can do until a "balanced" D&D edition, and that won't happen until Mike Mearls gets kicked in the dick and they hire some non-retarded designers.

[Krusk]

unfortunately for Krusk, there is no magic way to make people understand. At least, that's all you can do until a "balanced" D&D edition, and that won't happen until Mike Mearls gets kicked in the dick and they hire some non-retarded designers.

New question. How often do people meet Mearls? I can't imagine him going to cons or local game shops, being such a polarizing figure in DND. 4e loves him, everyone else wants him fired years ago. I see him stealthing into a FLGS in hat, glasses and moustache trying to convince someone to buy some power cards.

-My groups are generally tolerable. Most don't care enough about the rules and will play with whatever the person who stepped up to DM says. No paticular devotion to or against a set of rules or mechanics. The problems arise when someone says "Hey my buddy [Mearls] from work says he plays, lets let him run a game. He is apparently super experienced, and has been playing since the early 80s. We should learn tons of good tips and ideas".

I guess its to say that, every player, and especially DM who isn't in my current groups that I have ever met in person has been horrible and has horrible ideas.

[TheFlatline]

You'll also never have a particularly balanced game so long as your magic system has no limits. Seriously, D&D magic, especially 3rd edition, has *no* limits to it. And there are people who believe that magic should always be awesome. In a magic system with no real limitations, you can balance the system all you want, and sooner or later someone will come along and literally think "it's bullshit that this is balanced. Magic is way more awesome than some dude swinging a sword. Let's fix this" and publish an official spell or rule or something that fucks up game balance and makes magic awesome.

And after 30+ years of that paradigm, it's pretty much universal. Think of some activity you can do in D&D, just about *any* activity. Someone, at some point, has created a spell, and almost certainly an arcane spell, to do it, replicate it, or do it better. The only two things that pop up in my head as an exception is healing and turning undead. Diplomacy has a host of options culminating in charm/dominate, hitting things is already more efficient with spells than with a sword, but if that pisses you off there are str, dex, and con buffs, including a spell that just fucking gives you 18's and a fighter's HPs so you can pick up a sword and do his fucking job.

It's the problem I have with where Shadowrun is heading. For a long time magic was limited in what it can and can't do. It's incredibly powerful within it's sphere of influence. Now the devs are sucking the Magic Cock and bending/breaking those rules. Why? Because Magic Wins baby!

[TheFlatline]

-My groups are generally tolerable. Most don't care enough about the rules and will play with whatever the person who stepped up to DM says. No paticular devotion to or against a set of rules or mechanics. The problems arise when someone says "Hey my buddy [Mearls] from work says he plays, lets let him run a game. He is apparently super experienced, and has been playing since the early 80s. We should learn tons of good tips and ideas".

You know, now that you mention it, I've never seen a good DM who just swings into a group to DM, with one exception (and even then I'm assured he used to play as a PC a lot. I just never have seen him do it. Good DM though). Everyone else comes in and plays as a PC and eventually picks up the DM mantle when there's an opening and a desire to game.

Maybe Mearls et al need to go back to *playing* in a game instead of *running* the game. It's a really different experience.

[Midnight_v]

But this requires reasonable communication between individuals.

The above caught my eye, but really the bulk of what you're saying seems like a gross oversimplifcation. Maybe thats it, though.

Maybe we see this type of tripe spread all over the internet because of the social breakdown that occurs with anonimity.
However, there are two situations that I'm acutally sick of. . .
1. People on some of the other popular websites bitching about min-max, mostly because of lack of intel but moreso because they've chosen to stick to the guns about "How things should be". This is the rather moronic crowd who things optimizers ruined D&D.

2. Play groups who played X edition, and think "The way it was is the way it has to be". I'm not specifically talking about grognards but they're included in the group, and its really lots of people who think they're way is "right".

Explaining to them things like the stormwind fallacy and even presented in a non-threatining way, its threatening to them because what you're dong is suggesting that they do the one thing people hate to do overall: Change.

Coming into these groups is a problem because they expect you to play a traditional role... WITH THE TRADITIONAL CLASS!
So they say, we need a fighter... and you make cleric.
Its a problem.
They say, wow you're a cleric, we need a cleric! They mean a Healer.
These are the people over at gitp who started that thread stating "Fluff is just as important" so if you're a "Paladin of X" you better damn well have "Paladin" as class at the top of the page. NOT Class X (with a lawful good paladin set of beliefs and moral code)

So yeah you can play D&D with only like minded individuals, that'd be really cool, but challengings peoples perceptions about they way things are done?
Is far to often take as a "CHALLENGE" in a way that you can capitalize. So if you're new to the group, you will be considered the offensive member.

I've found that its better to train groups myself generally.

Finally, and forgive the giant wall of txt... min-maxer is the wrong fucking word. Optimizers, is the word. Min-maxing is but a tool of optimization.
"100 when you need 1 is not optimal.
having 1 when you need 1 is optimal.", and all that jazz.

What I'm saying there is people having a working knowledge of the game is a good thing(tm), but having working KNOWLEDGE of the game is requisite to actually HAVING the discussion on what the appropriate power level is.
If you know these dudes are thinking "Cleric, fighter, wizard, thief" then being a optimizer you can easily fit into that paradigmn.

... you might not want to though because as an optmizer... you'd want to not participate in shit game with very likely refried shit stories from 4th grade. ymmv.

[shadzar]

So yeah you can play D&D with only like minded individuals, that'd be really cool, but challengings peoples perceptions about they way things are done?
Is far to often take as a "CHALLENGE" in a way that you can capitalize. So if you're new to the group, you will be considered the offensive member.

the problem is there is no common ground anymore. the over diversification and too many options like what 2nd edition settings created, means there are FEW like minded people. the core was lost to excessive options, so it is hard to agree, even if communication is present.

with 3S and 4S, now there are 4 systems, so even communicating those systems present vast different playstyles that must be communicated by. picking a system SHOULD allow for easier communication, but still too many options to agree on, and you can NOT force people to optimize.

by nature there are just some people that prefer to play through the story, and other who play through the game. not everyone does both.