Plebes and Powers: A Cynical Superhero universe

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Sun Jun 17, 2012 11:04 pm

I want this to be attached to a full system now so I can play a villain who robs banks for trivial amounts of money, is fairly concerned for plebe injuries or mortalities, and assembles death rays so that he can fry the local wildlife near his secret volcano lair. Like, a casual hobbyist villain, because there's no real drawbacks so why not?

kzt · Post by **kzt** » Sun Jun 17, 2012 11:05 pm

So no Joker in this universe?

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:08 am

kzt wrote:So no Joker in this universe?

The Joker qualifies as a Talent at best, and that's stretching it. He gets thrown in a regular prison and doesn't break out unless he knows a Power who owes him a favor.

But yes, when Black Adam punches ten million people to death because he's having a bad hair day, he gets a slap on the wrist. That kind of thing does happen and it's why heroes have never-ending jobs. Powers get pissed off like everyone else, and when they do bad things happen.

You've basically got a world that is, in D&D terms, stratified between the 1st level commoners, the 5th level fighters, and the level 20+ wizards.

The only reason that the status quo exists is that the Superman-level Powers don't want to end the world and so they created a system to perpetuate it and prevent disagreements between Powers from degenerating into the apocalypse.

The first generation Powers generally understand what it's like to by a normal mortal human, because they were once (well, they were Talents who didn't know it, but that's practically the same thing), but most Powers aren't first generation. The vast majority of them are the children of established Powers, who grew up in the League system. They went to League schools. All of their friends growing up were Powers. They apprenticed under a registered Power.

So Captain Insano knocked down Big Ben because it was blocking his view of the Thames and some Plebes died when he did that. But Captain Insano also coaches your daughters softball team, and he loaned you some money to start up your your ice cream shop, and he's a pretty nice guy when he's not blowing up national monuments full of tourists who you don't personally know and have no reason to care about other than abstract ideals. You're probably going to take it easy on him, because he know him and you sort of like him, and the rules encourage you to take it easy on him.

In fact, you're entire social structure is designed so that you can empathize with the villains more than you do with the plebes. The villains are real people, like you, with the same experiences and the same problems. You worked with them every day, even if you disagree with them. The plebes are real people too, of course, but only in abstract. You don't interact with them the same way you do with iother Powers, and you're pretty much incapable of understanding their trials and tribulations, fears and concerns because you've never experienced them yourself. You were born a level 35 wizard. You have more in common with the evil necromancer king than you ever could have with a commoner.

It's an absolutely horrible universe to be a normal person, because they live and breath at the whim and pleasure of the Powers. The heroes at least try to make a stand for plebe rights, though, even if they are just as racist as the villains.

Being a talent is also pretty horrible, due to the power difference between them and Powers, but at least they have a chance for upward mobility and explicitly have equal rights according to the League rules.

Chamomile wrote:I want this to be attached to a full system now so I can play a villain who robs banks for trivial amounts of money, is fairly concerned for plebe injuries or mortalities, and assembles death rays so that he can fry the local wildlife near his secret volcano lair. Like, a casual hobbyist villain, because there's no real drawbacks so why not?

Hero would probably work.

Ice9 · Post by **Ice9** » Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:39 am

Two things:
1) This goes beyond "cynical" to "dark as fuck". But then I notice that you did call it a "dystopian nightmare world", so I guess that fits.

2) There are a number of potential loopholes in the five rules. It seems like any power who actually starts to dislike their opposition will take action mainly through procedural fuckery. Which might be what you're going for, actually, just thought I'd mention a few.

Power vs Power
* Six Degrees of Murder: A power's support group is registered. So look them people up, find the people they know, and start killing those people. Not technically against the rules, but should ruin the power's day at least.

* Human Shield: Get a large support group, as big as possible. Stick them very visibly in the areas you want to protect. Seismic Sam is on a landmark-destroying binge? Too bad all the most famous ones are off limits.

* Human Landmine: As above, but stick them in places you think your target will destroy, without any warning. Now they've violated Rule #2 and get banished.

* Human Ammunition: Get a support group that's well trained and armed. Send them to attack other powers' support groups. AFAICT, they get banished if they interfere.

* "Accidental" Leakage: Rule #3 is pretty hard to enforce, if you do it subtly. And even harder to prove that it was intentional.

Plebe vs Power
Most of these amount to, basically, dickery. And may provoke angry powers to go on a rampage. However, when you have no other options, they start to look worth doing.

* Forget Jail, You're Getting Fucked: This one needs a Power accomplice. Rule #4 allows the "arresting" power to at least make the arrested power go through the motions - trial, setting foot in jail, etc - even if they leave very shortly afterward. So change your laws. The new sentence for what Captain Carnage did is immediate execution, right there in the courtroom. If it's impossible to harm even a restrained power, then how about sealing them in a solid block of iron? Or if all else fails, punishments that are annoying or unpleasant. Having a 10-year-long trial which the judge spends rickrolling you, or being dunked in a vat of raw sewage, or whatever.

* Political Lockout: Per Rule #5, powers are forbidden to involve themselves in plebe politics. So involve the power whether they want to or not. Declare them the new dictator. Treat any statement or action they make as official orders (you may need some creative interpretation). Hopefully, this should effectively bar them from doing anything visible in your country.

* Support Sniping: Find out who a power's registered support network are. Do bad things to them. Sure, the power can protect them, but force them to actually do that, tying them up on guard duty. Works even better with a Power accomplice - you can declare the support network guilty of capital crimes, giving your accomplice the excuse to detain the target power while you execute them.

* Simulated Leaking: Fake the invention of technologies extremely similar to those possessed by the target super. Try to get them in trouble for leaking.

* Human Landmines, Redux: Kidnap a talent. Arrange for them to be unconscious in a location that a power destroys. "Discover" this fact in the course of reporting on the disaster. Power gets banished.

Vebyast · Post by **Vebyast** » Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:18 pm

I imagine that the "human landmine" and "simulated leaking" type dickery wouldn't work too well; I'd assume that the SuperHague uses telepaths and seers as truth detectors and to follow chains of evidence.

Hyzmarca's point about only the first-gen good supers being in touch with the plebes is interesting. Maybe there's a small cadre of the most powerful supers (Boy Scout and company, essentially) that attempts to enforce the spirit of the laws rather than the letter?

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:36 pm

Ice9 wrote: * Human Ammunition: Get a support group that's well trained and armed. Send them to attack other powers' support groups. AFAICT, they get banished if they interfere.

Worth noting that most modern versions of Captain America has his WWII support group being the Howling Commandos, an actual group of SpecOps veterans. No reason something similar couldn't happen in the Plebeverse.

Midnight_v · Post by **Midnight_v** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:55 pm

I dont' know if you realize it but you have indeed "THE BOYS" on your hands. I sadly have every episode of that comic and well, this is the same type of distopia except you have no "The Boys" yet.
Also, emerging technologies? Example, you mentioned alien invasions.
Comic book aliens would slip tech to the plebian governments, if they could, especially the "Skrulls / Martian / Shapeshifter" type, thats common, and maybe thats 1 of the potential "adventure paths".
Also technologists, aren't even supers, till they build an arc-reactor suit.
Do they kill those plebes who cross a tech line?
Is it a situation where the Marilith teleports in an kill the commoners for rubies?
Here's the deal. I"m on board with the idea, I love comics and am familiar with this kind of world. There's a lot of source material.
The Boys, The Authority, House of "M", for instance all genetic work was banned because it ends up with an effect on powers.
In fact the end of this is pretty damned clear, humans are going to kill them all, or they're going to kill all the humans. Pretty much the only solution, if they let human governments work at all.
There would be "accidental supes" all the time, as well as alien invasion where the aliens were heralded liberators, like the "Kree" in the "ruins" universe. Finally, there would be a pretty constant attempt to make a "Powers Stripper" as well as a "X-zone banisher" and finally and MOST telling is the "Legacy Virus or Scourge Virus" because fuck you super-humans, or the reverse... The High Evolutionary, seriously wants to make ALL Plebes into Supes.
Now I'm saying all that to say, that "These things will come up" because of all the people who have the "Outwit" power in the hero clix sense.
Even if it means selling out souls to the devil/aliens/Old Gods, which may or not be possible.

Still yeah... its Powers, meets the Boys, meets The AUTHORITY, meets Superman or rather "Miracle Man" not to imply thats a bad thing at all.
Its just that the idea that the plebes are just "taking it" is not so reasonable if they've allowed us to get to 2012 tech.

So, the first thing I'm curious about is "Who killed Retro girl" What happens when a government kills a Supe, via Kryponite or whatever. Things of that nature. If the answer is "they can't... EVER" then there needs to be an explanation of why.

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:09 pm

Governments killing supes depends on the circumstances, the supe and what kind of political connections/friends he has. Minor villains killed during a super-crime, that's just a risk of doing business. If a politically popular villain killed in his home, there's a good chance that there will be massive retaliation.

While the Big Three won't directly get involved (the balance of power between them is too delicate), there are plenty of Powers, villains especially, who will see killing one of their own as a crime worthy of retribution. They can't take over the government without incurring the wrath of the Big Three, but they can murder the fuck out of everyone involved and then some. Decapitating governments is trivial work, even if you can't take them over.

As for technology. I really don't want the plebes to be that high tech. The comic book conciet of being the present day with superpowers should be in force. I guess I'll have to take a page from genius and say that Impossibletech inventions that totally break the laws of physics, like Iron Man power armor, can't be reverse engineered because building machines that don't obey the laws is physics is actually a superpower. Impossibletech can be mass produced (because an Impossibletech assembly line and build other Impossibletech machines) and it can be stolen, but it can't be copied.

Genius-level Talents, though, do push the limits of their fields. When you have people who are as smart of Einstein, you do end up with revolutionary breakthroughs. But these aren't instant and they're limited to hard science.

Aliens, of course, have their own Powers and their own Impossibletech, and some are even willing to share their black box fabricators with you, but that just means that you've got a robot army that's totally loyal to the invading aliens. Good luck with that.

So I'll amend the tech sharing rule to sharing Impossibletech is illegal.

Sharing possibletech isn't, but very few Powers spend time researching hard science. Why create a better form of chemotherapy when you've got a purple ray. or a better form of rocket when you've got anti-gravity drives?

We can probable shorten that of Imtech for ease of use.

Midnight_v · Post by **Midnight_v** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:43 pm

I think the lack of human element makes the story worse.
"Wanted" by mark millar the comic was like that.
Still... yeah there really are going to be people/governments making powers with alien robot armies etc. I guess thats whats up. Also peoples who power is "Impossible tech" would spawn naturally but sure.
Also we have some impossible tech now in real life, but I acknowledge its as you say small and likely not shared. Also, how do they stop earth government from recreating things like what happend with Sickle. I can think of a mulititude of government right now that will do that, enmasse. Hell even some supervillans want that to be honest.
Also, I imagine there's no nukes, right? Wait I digress. . . The issue is this setting takes place in a small timeframe in this superhero verse. Accepting it for what it is requires less questions, but this shit sounds like a tragedy in 3 acts, not a bad story, but not nearly complete either. Sounds cool so far.

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:07 pm

Midnight_v wrote:I think the lack of human element makes the story worse.
"Wanted" by mark millar the comic was like that.
Still... yeah there really are going to be people/governments making powers with alien robot armies etc. I guess thats whats up. Also peoples who power is "Impossible tech" would spawn naturally but sure.
Also we have some impossible tech now in real life, but I acknowledge its as you say small and likely not shared. Also, how do they stop earth government from recreating things like what happend with Sickle. I can think of a mulititude of government right now that will do that, enmasse. Hell even some supervillans want that to be honest.
Also, I imagine there's no nukes, right? Wait I digress. . . The issue is this setting takes place in a small timeframe in this superhero verse. Accepting it for what it is requires less questions, but this shit sounds like a tragedy in 3 acts, not a bad story, but not nearly complete either. Sounds cool so far.

You know, you're right about the tech. I should probably just drop impossible tech altogether and simply tone it down a bit. Alien invasions and space stations, robot armies, but mostly grounded in reality, so powered armor isn't super-effective. The exact tech progression can be worked out of needed. Besides, there's no need to overly complicate the cosmology. I don't want the entire thing to be about aliens and supertech.

Though yes, the human element is important. It's just that the human element is pretty fucked. I'm still trying to work out the exact details, so your input is appreciated.

Recruiting talents is something that governments do quite often. Talents are safe. Steve Rogers is superhuman enough to give you a decent advantage, but not so much that he can solo your entire country. You can build a small army based around guys like him without worrying too much.

Full on Powers is a different thing, though. It's playing with fire. The big three enforce a no more coups rule out of necessity. A pleasant working relationship between a government and a Power can easily end up with the Power becoming dictator for life.

As for nukes, they exist. They're just not effective against guys who go sunbathing in the actual literal sun, recreationally.

The important thing is that the superhuamnss aren't incompetent, just myopic. The Boys worked because, in addition to being sick decadent fucks, the superhumans are also all complete and utter morons who have no clue what they're doing. Competence on either side wold have resulted in the book ending at issue 1, four at the most.

Ice9 · Post by **Ice9** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:21 pm

Re: Supertech, you could go the Wild Cards route - Supertech doesn't actually work, it just appears to work because the "inventor" is a psychokinetic with mental block who subconciously powers the device themselves. If examined, a ray gun might have random chunks of circuitry inside that aren't even connected properly.

So - Iron Man's suit flies because he's inside it. Possibly, another "Inventor" Power with a similar focus could also use it, and possibly a normal person could use it if Tony Stark was there watching. But take him out of the picture, and the suit just sits there. Or possibly explodes, depending on how he constructed the jets.

That said, many Powers could advance technology significantly if they wanted to. Somebody like Dr. Manhattan could advance theoretical science decades just by being able to create ideal experimental conditions, even if anything he actually built fell apart when he left. But as that requires being there in person, it's a lot easier to enforce a ban against it.

Dominicius · Post by **Dominicius** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:22 am

hyzmarca wrote:In fact, you're entire social structure is designed so that you can empathize with the villains more than you do with the plebes. The villains are real people, like you, with the same experiences and the same problems. You worked with them every day, even if you disagree with them. The plebes are real people too, of course, but only in abstract. You don't interact with them the same way you do with other Powers, and you're pretty much incapable of understanding their trials and tribulations, fears and concerns because you've never experienced them yourself. You were born a level 35 wizard. You have more in common with the evil necromancer king than you ever could have with a commoner.

I think there is a problem here. The original idea of the friction between heroes and villains is that heroes think that they should serve mankind but if most of them are so disassociated from normal humans that they empathize more with the villains then it makes no sense for them to serve anyone. When they realize that they actually don't care about the plebs at all they drop the act and become full on villains.

So really, the question is, why are the heroes still heroes?

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:44 am

Same reason some people buy crappy products even though the competitors are demonstrably superior. Their father was on Team Blue and so was their mother, and all their friends and family are Team Blue, so by golly they're going to be Team Blue too.

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:36 pm

It really doesn't hit me as a very big problem. Force and intimidation become attractive options mostly when you've decided that you're not getting what you want and you no longer care that much about being liked. Thing is, being a heroic talent or power could be a pretty good deal in a setting where the rules encourage inertia and a no-kill policy between supers. I mean, just think about it: the threat of guys like Ubermensch means that by promising to intercede in extreme cases heroes get many of the benefits of running a protection racket without ceding the moral high ground or disrupting the flow of fan mail and sext messages.

Imagine that you're the Boy Scout's nephew. You're super powerful, extremely famous, can use your abs to grate cheese and can divert natural disasters or operate as a one man demolition crew at virtually no risk to yourself. Your ass is getting kissed pretty much all the time. In such a scenario you're really not suffering much by deciding to care a bit about ethics or a handful of pleb friends.

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:08 pm

To put it another way, the number of Americans who complained about the War in Iraq on internet message boards greatly dwarfed the number of Americans who actually went to Iraq and joined the Insurgency.

You can get angry about nebulous abstract innocent people being hurt without actually knowing or empathizing with them, but nebulous and abstract innocent people aren't the same as innocent people whom you personally know.

Having a consequence-free row over abstract principles is easy, actually putting yourself on the line for them is hard and hurting people you actually know for them is harder.

Stubbazubba · Post by **Stubbazubba** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:00 pm

hyzmarca wrote:Having a consequence-free row over abstract principles is easy, actually putting yourself on the line for them is hard and hurting people you actually know for them is harder.

That is generally a quality of "heroes." But yeah, you don't have those in this setting, because neither of them actually care about the abstract principles. One just wants to maintain the status quo because they're content living within its rules and the validation they get from each other for doing so, the other wants to push it as far as they can because hedonism rocks and all that's between them and ultimate pleasure is an abstract principle, and the guys who will defend said abstract principle.

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:11 pm

hyzmarca wrote: Having a consequence-free row over abstract principles is easy, actually putting yourself on the line for them is hard and hurting people you actually know for them is harder.

Particularly if one of the abstract principles you hold dear is the notion that you shouldn't be hurting people over abstract principles.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:13 pm

And despite it all, this setting still isn't as grimdark as WH40K. Or even default D&D for that matter. I think that there might be something wrong with us.

hyzmarca, is this setting being played for dark comedy or for serious? Because, uh, The Boyz isn't exactly supposed to be For Serious.

A Man In Black · Post by **A Man In Black** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:10 am

Powers, Irreedeemable/Incorruptible, Authority, Kingdom Come, the Boys, Marvel/Miracleman. There's a decent amount of source material for this.

The "Masquerade" renegade explanation seems unsatisfying, though. I don't see how life is more or less stable in a setting where, if someone goes crazy, Cincinnati gets blown off the map. It's not (as much of) a problem for something more like mainstream comics because nothing makes any damn sense, so it's just one more thing to wonder about. But this attempts to rationalize so much about the setting, yet doesn't deal with Ultraman taking out Chicago because he hates the Cubs despite setting that up as a potential threat. (This is why I find Authority so unsatisfying in retrospect. Nothing mattered, nothing changed, nothing happened except that some bad people got punched so hard they exploded.)

I don't see the value of trying to make some sort of stable version of these stories, when almost all of them are apocalyptic.

Midnight_v · Post by **Midnight_v** » Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:01 am

Thought about this for a day or so...

... is this do able using the After Sundown, system? It struck me that it seemed like a really good fit in a number of ways. I also hate the "Madison Jefferies/Roger Bochs" answer for tech. Still, its not a completely unworkable solution.

I realized, because having spent my life reading comic books, that most of the "problems" I'd have with the setting's "consitency" were actually things that would simply be covered by "Story Arcs"/"Plot Hooks/Adventure Paths" (I seriously don't know what to call these things)

A man in black ir really spot on, having been someone who's read all the source material (to the point that I was astounded, that "Chronicle" didn't get sued by "A God Somwhere" creators) I kind realize you can "START" at a stable point, each uhm... campaign.
So its kinda episodic in that nature, which totally works for the pronounced situation, as long people realize that instead of "Post Apocalyptic" like the bulk of the games I seem to see, this one is set Seconds Before the fall.
The get 1 day of peace, and status quo, then...
-Captain Atom is exploded in a fight with the "parasite" destroying the midwest area of the US.
- The White Martin Invasion Occurs. (to everyone's suprise) "Hyperclan"
- The Kree (arrive to liberate humans from their earth governments, aka supers)
-A nation figures out how to strip humans of powers, does so, very publically. Puts the plans on the internet.
-The Goddamn Batman (Complete with terrifying Plot powers) /Doctor Doom/ Lex Luthor work here also. *humans with outwit, killing super/killing supes absorbing thier powers.
- A Group of supers says "Fuck these rules" the elite/authority/whoever... but 4 people strong as BoyScout and ubermench (likely BoyScouts grandson)
- A super more powerful than the big 3 is born created. So you get a reality warper, or a ultra telepath like Xavier. . .
... alternatively, the king of the telepaths dies, and suddenly everyone realizes, they've been getting along this way for years, because he's frankly "MADE" them.
- Sentinel (robo of your chooising) army.
.........................
Frankly, the list goes on and on, my point is this because a MUCH better frankchise, if its played just before all the major events occur. After Sundown works in my head because they have "Luminaries" and the Children of Daedalus idea, where these supes have a recharge mechanic, etc. . . also it might open up more power sources than (radiation caused it) which was my problem with "Nukes" still existing.
Certain nations would school thier people, fill them with patriotism, then nuke the house they live in hoping the ideology would carry over with their "Children" aka people who survived to still have powers.
Still even that ends up being just another campaign seed.

edit: One of the key things that affect the human element is starting background. If you're a talent who beomes a power, you're life is hugely different than a child of a power, (born a power). You know what it is to be afraid. To be human. To train and work hard etc. BEFORE you get great power, depending on what your power turns out to be, you might not even know you're a talent.

erik · Post by **erik** » Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:55 am

Lago PARANOIA wrote:And despite it all, this setting still isn't as grimdark as WH40K. Or even default D&D for that matter. I think that there might be something wrong with us.

I keep coming back to the bolded notion. I find the whole concept for the setting abhorrent and retarded. And then think, Fuck, it's like D&D. Am I being tricked somehow?

Or do I just happily accept the horrible nature of D&D because fantasy is not expected to be civilized? This superhero setting seems like civilization has been rendered moot since there are human monsters who are operating above it in obvious fashion.

I may be more willing to swallow the horrible crap of a less-advanced society since the accepted norm seems to be that there are the rulers and the ruled. There may even be some justification for it since there are monsters, and those monsters aren't just other humans corrupted by power.

Anywho, stop making me question my D&D conceits, damn youuuuuu!

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:47 am

erik wrote:
Lago PARANOIA wrote:And despite it all, this setting still isn't as grimdark as WH40K. Or even default D&D for that matter. I think that there might be something wrong with us.
I keep coming back to the bolded notion. I find the whole concept for the setting abhorrent and retarded. And then think, Fuck, it's like D&D. Am I being tricked somehow?

Or do I just happily accept the horrible nature of D&D because fantasy is not expected to be civilized? This superhero setting seems like civilization has been rendered moot since there are human monsters who are operating above it in obvious fashion.

I may be more willing to swallow the horrible crap of a less-advanced society since the accepted norm seems to be that there are the rulers and the ruled. There may even be some justification for it since there are monsters, and those monsters aren't just other humans corrupted by power.

Anywho, stop making me question my D&D conceits, damn youuuuuu!

There are, always and only, rulers and the ruled. The difference between a guy who can sweet talk millions of people into voting for him and a guy who doesn't need any votes because he's got super-powers is academic rather than practical. Both are forms of power that can lead to millions of deaths if abused.

Bad things happen when people in power mistake terrible ideas for good ones. That's true whether it's Superboy Prime deciding to end racism by punching all the racists in the world to death or Emperor Hirohito signing off of the East-Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere (everybody likes prosperity,).

Lago PARANOIA wrote:And despite it all, this setting still isn't as grimdark as WH40K. Or even default D&D for that matter. I think that there might be something wrong with us.

hyzmarca, is this setting being played for dark comedy or for serious? Because, uh, The Boyz isn't exactly supposed to be For Serious.

I hate the Boys because, ultimately, the setting is based on the total incompetence of its superheroes. It isn't just that they're corrupt and decadent and it's always through in your face, it's that they are complete and total morons down the the last man, with the possible exception of Love Sausage.

The Boys brand of humor is based almost entirely in ridicule. I'm not going for that. Competent heroes trapped in a bad situation and the serious ethical problems that come from having a group of walking nuclear bombs with differing philosophies in how they interact with the rest of the world is what I'm going for.

Midnight_v wrote:Thought about this for a day or so...

... is this do able using the After Sundown, system? It struck me that it seemed like a really good fit in a number of ways. I also hate the "Madison Jefferies/Roger Bochs" answer for tech. Still, its not a completely unworkable solution.

I realized, because having spent my life reading comic books, that most of the "problems" I'd have with the setting's "consitency" were actually things that would simply be covered by "Story Arcs"/"Plot Hooks/Adventure Paths" (I seriously don't know what to call these things)

A man in black ir really spot on, having been someone who's read all the source material (to the point that I was astounded, that "Chronicle" didn't get sued by "A God Somwhere" creators) I kind realize you can "START" at a stable point, each uhm... campaign.
So its kinda episodic in that nature, which totally works for the pronounced situation, as long people realize that instead of "Post Apocalyptic" like the bulk of the games I seem to see, this one is set Seconds Before the fall.
The get 1 day of peace, and status quo, then...
-Captain Atom is exploded in a fight with the "parasite" destroying the midwest area of the US.
- The White Martin Invasion Occurs. (to everyone's suprise) "Hyperclan"
- The Kree (arrive to liberate humans from their earth governments, aka supers)
-A nation figures out how to strip humans of powers, does so, very publically. Puts the plans on the internet.
-The Goddamn Batman (Complete with terrifying Plot powers) /Doctor Doom/ Lex Luthor work here also. *humans with outwit, killing super/killing supes absorbing thier powers.
- A Group of supers says "Fuck these rules" the elite/authority/whoever... but 4 people strong as BoyScout and ubermench (likely BoyScouts grandson)
- A super more powerful than the big 3 is born created. So you get a reality warper, or a ultra telepath like Xavier. . .
... alternatively, the king of the telepaths dies, and suddenly everyone realizes, they've been getting along this way for years, because he's frankly "MADE" them.
- Sentinel (robo of your chooising) army.
.........................

The situation is inherently unstable and kept in check by the three misters'"I have to fly out into space when I feel a sneeze coming on so that I don't accidentally crack a continental plate'. As soon as their totalitarian crackdowns fail to keep people in line the whole thing flies apart.

The PCs should have the opportunity to totally screw up the status quo and then watch the consequences as the world falls apart around them and perhaps build a better one from the ashes.

Frankly, the list goes on and on, my point is this because a MUCH better frankchise, if its played just before all the major events occur. After Sundown works in my head because they have "Luminaries" and the Children of Daedalus idea, where these supes have a recharge mechanic, etc. . . also it might open up more power sources than (radiation caused it) which was my problem with "Nukes" still existing.
Certain nations would school thier people, fill them with patriotism, then nuke the house they live in hoping the ideology would carry over with their "Children" aka people who survived to still have powers.
Still even that ends up being just another campaign seed.

I picked radiation because its the classic cause for super-powers. But for every Hulk or Spider-Man you get millions of Harry Daghlians and Louis Slotins.

edit: One of the key things that affect the human element is starting background. If you're a talent who beomes a power, you're life is hugely different than a child of a power, (born a power). You know what it is to be afraid. To be human. To train and work hard etc. BEFORE you get great power, depending on what your power turns out to be, you might not even know you're a talent.

Yeah, that's the important bit, there's going to be a disconnect between the people who really understand plebeian humanity and the people who are are driven by good but ultimately shallow ideology.

A Man In Black wrote:Powers, Irreedeemable/Incorruptible, Authority, Kingdom Come, the Boys, Marvel/Miracleman. There's a decent amount of source material for this.

The "Masquerade" renegade explanation seems unsatisfying, though. I don't see how life is more or less stable in a setting where, if someone goes crazy, Cincinnati gets blown off the map. It's not (as much of) a problem for something more like mainstream comics because nothing makes any damn sense, so it's just one more thing to wonder about. But this attempts to rationalize so much about the setting, yet doesn't deal with Ultraman taking out Chicago because he hates the Cubs despite setting that up as a potential threat. (This is why I find Authority so unsatisfying in retrospect. Nothing mattered, nothing changed, nothing happened except that some bad people got punched so hard they exploded.)

I don't see the value of trying to make some sort of stable version of these stories, when almost all of them are apocalyptic.

The setting sucks. Ultraman blows up Chicago and he's effectively given a slap on the wrist if that. As PCs you know that the setting sucks, that much should be obvious to you. You have a choice, to you tear it all down, do you knock over that fragile house of cards and watch the world go to hell in the hopes that whatever is left in the end will somehow be better or do you support the system which has kept the world alive for this long but has effectively turned normal humans into third class citizens with few rights and no justice who are slowly but surely being transformed into a slave race by the swinging pendulum of superhuman politics. Both options suck. Ones conservative and reactive. The other is liberal and proactive. Oddly, the liberal hippies are the ones supporting the plan most likely to lead to World War III.

Pre-apocolypse is a good description.

John Magnum · Post by **John Magnum** » Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:27 am

It's not just the incompetence of the heroes. Remember, Vought-American has been attempting to deploy superheroes as combatants for seventy years and they haven't managed to come up with anyone more suitable for the task than Homelander.

It's really amazing how Ennis has dragged out the single concept of "What if superheroes were actually morally depraved????" for literally years.

erik · Post by **erik** » Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:06 pm

hyzmarca wrote: There are, always and only, rulers and the ruled. The difference between a guy who can sweet talk millions of people into voting for him and a guy who doesn't need any votes because he's got super-powers is academic rather than practical. Both are forms of power that can lead to millions of deaths if abused.

Bad things happen when people in power mistake terrible ideas for good ones. That's true whether it's Superboy Prime deciding to end racism by punching all the racists in the world to death or Emperor Hirohito signing off of the East-Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere (everybody likes prosperity,).

I guess I'm not cynical enough to swallow this. I don't think that many modern day governments, even with their numerous flaws, are equivalent to feudal government or despotism.

To say that 'they're all rulers and ruled'... that someone who gains the voluntary support of people though words rather than coercion via explicit violence is so fucking jaded it is charitably just wrong. It saves nothing for the probability of people even in the highest offices being held accountable to some standards.

I think you understand this since you also do grant that the setting is essentially protocataclysmic and untenable. This aggression will not stand, man. If plebes aren't working on developing kryptonite, in addition to building better supers then... harrumph.

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:32 pm

erik wrote: I guess I'm not cynical enough to swallow this. I don't think that many modern day governments, even with their numerous flaws, are equivalent to feudal government or despotism.

To say that 'they're all rulers and ruled'... that someone who gains the voluntary support of people though words rather than coercion via explicit violence is so fucking jaded it is charitably just wrong. It saves nothing for the probability of people even in the highest offices being held accountable to some standards.

Hitler was elected. And he had an approval rating that most politicians would kill for. Having the voluntary support of the majority of people does nothing to guarantee that you'll be a good ruler.

John Magnum wrote:It's not just the incompetence of the heroes. Remember, Vought-American has been attempting to deploy superheroes as combatants for seventy years and they haven't managed to come up with anyone more suitable for the task than Homelander.

It's really amazing how Ennis has dragged out the single concept of "What if superheroes were actually morally depraved????" for literally years.

Vought-American literally does not give a fuck if their products work or not. Their goal is to maximize profit margins without concern for ethics. Testing and quality assurance is expensive and reduces their margins. They're selling the sizzle, not the steak.

Vought_American incompetence there is not that they failed to create any militarily viable supers, they never intended to create militarilary viable supers, their incompetence is in the fact that it took them 70 years to trick the government into buying the crap that they did have.