3E Leadership and Nation-Building
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If you actually have hundreds or thousands of tiny men, magic missile is great. It's not a lot of damage, but it autohits and it doesn't afraid of anything (sorry). Really though, for first level dudes, the most up you're going to get is what, 20ish HP on a raging barbarian with toughness? Ten dudes focus fire and drop him, all rolling minimum. They don't have to roll to hit even, it just works. Six dudes on average. If it's superimportant that you do arena combat, they carry tower shields, and enjoy being in cover. Otherwise they form into squads and gank individual enemies.
I'll see if I can dig up my notes on the Shadow Circle; a 2e druid organisation that I attempted to recreate during an early 3e campaign.
I'll have to modify it though, as Animal Friendship was altered to become the animal companion class feature, plus the majority of followers I had access to were NPC classes (I did have a few non-humans in lieu of higher level humanoid followers though).
It is unlikely to be a remarkable use of 'tokens', but might prove a decent enough baseline to compare other things against.
I'll have to modify it though, as Animal Friendship was altered to become the animal companion class feature, plus the majority of followers I had access to were NPC classes (I did have a few non-humans in lieu of higher level humanoid followers though).
It is unlikely to be a remarkable use of 'tokens', but might prove a decent enough baseline to compare other things against.
It involves Illumian thing + Heighten Spell to get a spell of 9th level, and then you use that reserve feat that let's you summon an elemental of varying size for a duration of 9 rounds an infinite times a day.Dr_Noface wrote:Wait, what level 1 dude is summoning Large elementals? I MUST KNOW
Maybe it's even a huge elemental. I can't remember exactly, but it is pretty baller for level 1.
The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
Okay, I found my old campaign stuff. Not very inspiring. Spoilered for length and only partial relevance to this discussion.
The Shadow Circle.
A bit of background. In 2e this was an organisation detailed in the Druid Handbook that was opposed to the growth of civilisation. Not neccesarily evil, though they did ally with various marauding monsters in order to halt progress and steer society toward a simpler, more agrarian lifestyle.
I had an Archdruid character (13th level) in a long running campaign that was a nominal member of this sectret organisation. He had a couple of henchmen, a lot of woodland creatures at his disposal and a retinue of 3 initiates (10th level druids). Other members of the group had characters with a variable number of followers and henchmen, though most of these characters were treated as NPC's and plot hook generators, rather than an addition to the normal troupe of adventurers, though they would occasionally become important if an attack was made on a stronghold or other location important to a PC.
When 3e came along, the DM enthusiatically handed out a conversion document and annouched that we would be making a switch to 3e, to coincide with some major plot altering calamity and big adventure arc. I don't need to tell you it was a collossal disaster; major level discrepancies, new power discrepancies some people were unable to adapt to the new rules and discard old paradigms, to say nothing of the DM's ability to continue an established high level campaign with no experience in the system.
As my Archdruid character had a number of followers, henchmen and organisational ties, I was required to take the Leadership feat as part of the character conversion. I was not happy at the loss of power that resulted, but here is what I ended up with:
Level: 13
Charisma bonus: +4, 16 base (class req from 2e, +2 picked up from an item)
Leadership mods: +3; Great renown (Archdruid), generosity +1 (2e cash flow allowed you to be generous), special power +1 (Archdruid again) and cruelty (shadow circle alleigance + shit the character had done).
Cohort mods -2, imposed because of number of 'followers' granted by spells.
Follower mods +1: Base of operations (small farming village outside of a city, near some standing stones) +2, moves around a lot -1.
Leadership score for cohort: 16; 11th level.
Leadership score for followers: 21; 60 1st, 6 2nd, 3 3rd, 2 4th, 1 5th, 1 6th
So my characters henchmen ended up becoming NPC's and I kept one of my initiates as a cohort. But I ended up with a bunch of low level mooks. I kept the majority of my character's animal followers, but lost my retinue of Woodland beings and a few Quest'ed 'allies'.
The cohort was typically tasked with guarding the Standing Stone and the nearby village. I recall they were responsible for casting Hallow/Unhallow, Plant Growth, Liveoak and a number or terrain altering spells every few days. Typical spell roster included Fire Seeds which could be distributed to the local militia, Changestaff and a number of lockdown/wall spells in order to divide up any maruading force, plus a few summoning and ally augmentation spells. Oh, also 22hd worth of animal friends.
The majority of 1st level followers became commoners, residents of the village near my characters Druid Stones. I decided they were simple farming folk, non-initated members of the druidic cult. They were put to use making profession (farming) checks, using the funds on lifestyle and livestock, occasionally making a donation in exchange for spells. As I recall, taking a 10 on a profession check enabled them to garner around 8 gold a week, so I figured they were providing around 50 gold per week, in total donations, in the form of produce and basic finished goods. I did not think about the economic soundness of this at the time.
Of the 10 remaining 1st level guys, half were hunters or trappers (experts), the others were warriors, tougher than normal farmers that were retired soldiers or mercenaries. The hunters were sneaky archers, the militia had tower shields, alchemical items and potentially some fireseeds and ironwood gear at their disposal. They were all skilled in animal handling and were assumed to have dogs as well.
Second level followers were apothocaries (experts). Healing/herbalism/alchemy focus. Tasked with supplying the militia with alchemy gear (1st edition did not have the CL req. for alchemy). They also spent a lot of time providing medical services to the town as well as gathering spell components.
The higher level followers were a mixed bunch. I recall a higher level militia captain (who was also a wererat), a couple of lycanthrope warriors and a couple of sprites. To be honest, other than the pixies, I spent a lot more time managing animal friends and keeping tabs on the the best SNA choices. To be honest, there was not much defence against an aerial assault, plus there was no way the majority of these followers would contribute to a level appropriate encounter beyond drawing fire.
If I had to do a 3.5 conversion, I would probably keep a similar set up in terms of location and basic theme, but I would be making the most of a significant number of low level druids that were simply posing as ordinary villagers. I would probably establish a Hostel style Agony factory or atempt some Wicker Man style shenanigans for various seasonal dark sacfrifices, assuming Druids can even use those BoVD rules.
A bit of background. In 2e this was an organisation detailed in the Druid Handbook that was opposed to the growth of civilisation. Not neccesarily evil, though they did ally with various marauding monsters in order to halt progress and steer society toward a simpler, more agrarian lifestyle.
I had an Archdruid character (13th level) in a long running campaign that was a nominal member of this sectret organisation. He had a couple of henchmen, a lot of woodland creatures at his disposal and a retinue of 3 initiates (10th level druids). Other members of the group had characters with a variable number of followers and henchmen, though most of these characters were treated as NPC's and plot hook generators, rather than an addition to the normal troupe of adventurers, though they would occasionally become important if an attack was made on a stronghold or other location important to a PC.
When 3e came along, the DM enthusiatically handed out a conversion document and annouched that we would be making a switch to 3e, to coincide with some major plot altering calamity and big adventure arc. I don't need to tell you it was a collossal disaster; major level discrepancies, new power discrepancies some people were unable to adapt to the new rules and discard old paradigms, to say nothing of the DM's ability to continue an established high level campaign with no experience in the system.
As my Archdruid character had a number of followers, henchmen and organisational ties, I was required to take the Leadership feat as part of the character conversion. I was not happy at the loss of power that resulted, but here is what I ended up with:
Level: 13
Charisma bonus: +4, 16 base (class req from 2e, +2 picked up from an item)
Leadership mods: +3; Great renown (Archdruid), generosity +1 (2e cash flow allowed you to be generous), special power +1 (Archdruid again) and cruelty (shadow circle alleigance + shit the character had done).
Cohort mods -2, imposed because of number of 'followers' granted by spells.
Follower mods +1: Base of operations (small farming village outside of a city, near some standing stones) +2, moves around a lot -1.
Leadership score for cohort: 16; 11th level.
Leadership score for followers: 21; 60 1st, 6 2nd, 3 3rd, 2 4th, 1 5th, 1 6th
So my characters henchmen ended up becoming NPC's and I kept one of my initiates as a cohort. But I ended up with a bunch of low level mooks. I kept the majority of my character's animal followers, but lost my retinue of Woodland beings and a few Quest'ed 'allies'.
The cohort was typically tasked with guarding the Standing Stone and the nearby village. I recall they were responsible for casting Hallow/Unhallow, Plant Growth, Liveoak and a number or terrain altering spells every few days. Typical spell roster included Fire Seeds which could be distributed to the local militia, Changestaff and a number of lockdown/wall spells in order to divide up any maruading force, plus a few summoning and ally augmentation spells. Oh, also 22hd worth of animal friends.
The majority of 1st level followers became commoners, residents of the village near my characters Druid Stones. I decided they were simple farming folk, non-initated members of the druidic cult. They were put to use making profession (farming) checks, using the funds on lifestyle and livestock, occasionally making a donation in exchange for spells. As I recall, taking a 10 on a profession check enabled them to garner around 8 gold a week, so I figured they were providing around 50 gold per week, in total donations, in the form of produce and basic finished goods. I did not think about the economic soundness of this at the time.
Of the 10 remaining 1st level guys, half were hunters or trappers (experts), the others were warriors, tougher than normal farmers that were retired soldiers or mercenaries. The hunters were sneaky archers, the militia had tower shields, alchemical items and potentially some fireseeds and ironwood gear at their disposal. They were all skilled in animal handling and were assumed to have dogs as well.
Second level followers were apothocaries (experts). Healing/herbalism/alchemy focus. Tasked with supplying the militia with alchemy gear (1st edition did not have the CL req. for alchemy). They also spent a lot of time providing medical services to the town as well as gathering spell components.
The higher level followers were a mixed bunch. I recall a higher level militia captain (who was also a wererat), a couple of lycanthrope warriors and a couple of sprites. To be honest, other than the pixies, I spent a lot more time managing animal friends and keeping tabs on the the best SNA choices. To be honest, there was not much defence against an aerial assault, plus there was no way the majority of these followers would contribute to a level appropriate encounter beyond drawing fire.
If I had to do a 3.5 conversion, I would probably keep a similar set up in terms of location and basic theme, but I would be making the most of a significant number of low level druids that were simply posing as ordinary villagers. I would probably establish a Hostel style Agony factory or atempt some Wicker Man style shenanigans for various seasonal dark sacfrifices, assuming Druids can even use those BoVD rules.