DSMatticus wrote:If baseline means the typical monster, then the existence of a CR 3 vrock does not imply that the CR 9 vrock isn't the baseline, because mode does not always equal min and that is obvious. If baseline means the weakest possible standard (for whatever definition of standard you prefer, which will be totally arbitrary but whatever) vrock, then if a CR 3 vrock exists then there are more vrocks that are tremendously advanced than ones that aren't, and calling them tremendously advanced is a deceptively weighty way to say boringly ordinary. You seem to be operating on the assumption that the weakest will be the most typical, which is kind of like expecting the average human being to have straight 3's for stats. But beyond that, I don't know why you made that argument in the first place and I don't know why you're bothering to defend it. It is as irrelevant as it is shitty.
Just go with your actual argument, god damnit, which seems to be: changing the concept of a vrock (flying, teleporting, vulture demon with a magic death dance that is largely immune to the attacks of ordinary men and amateur magicians) without telling the players isn't playing unmodified, vanilla D&D anymore, and is unfair because 1) you lied to people when you said you were playing unmodified, vanilla D&D, and 2) players aren't capable of making decisions about the game world if their information about the game world doesn't match the reality of the game world because you fucking changed it without telling them.
And why can't you see that both 1) and 2) are only true if I am right about the baseline? I have defined the baseline already in this thread, the baseline is those characteristics essential to the being. All Vrocks have Greater Teleport, it is impossible to find a Vrock that does not (unless he is summoned, in which case, he is not really a Vrock). Likewise, all Vrocks have spores that do 1d8 damage followed by 1d4 for 10 rounds. Ect. If that isn't true, then you have changed what it means to be a Vrock.
It has absolutely nothing to do with how common they are. It could be that in your setting all Orcs have 30 levels of Fighter except one. And finding any Orc without 30 levels of Fighter is nigh impossible, but that wouldn't mean that Orc with 30 levels of Fighter is the baseline, it would mean that when an Orc is born, it still has no class levels.
Vrocks are a specific kind of fiend that is created by other fiends and souls and shit in fiery birthing pit, and when it comes out, it is not a baby Vrock, it is a full Vrock. And if you want to change the setting, you have to tell your players. But the fact that you have to tell your players only follows if that was the setting in the first place.
Fuchs wrote:Kaelik... first, again, since you simply seem not to be getting it: Not everything is made low-level, just the few high-level enemies you rescale for use in the low-level adventure. No setting is destroyed if you have a one-shot low-level adventure (or limited campaign) where you introduce CR3 vrocks. The impact such a change has is simply minimal. Really, Kaelik, you're the only one who seems to think D&D's existence hinges on Vrocks being CR9 at a miminum.
Again, since you seem not to be getting it: Yes, that is explicitly K's original position that people rebelled against. K said CR 7 Gods. That is in fucking fact, literally everything being scaled down.
Yes, they things that don't show up in the game are not being actively scaled down by the DM, but when you scale down literally every single things that does show up, the obvious inescapable conclusion is that everything is in fact scaled down.
Fuchs wrote:Second, try to make an effort, and understand that for all purposes and effects, there is no high-level whatever in a low-level one-shot adventure or campaign. When you're agreeing to play a low-level one-shot adventure or campaign you're agreeing to play a game focused on low level characters. Whatever high-level threats are there are not present in a meaningful way, whatever high-level allies exist are not partaking in any important way, unless we're in the realm of DM pet NPCs handling the adventure with the PCs as henchmen or similar outliers.
Try to make an effort and understand that you are a lying sack of shit idiot, and you are wrong. It doesn't matter if it wasn't going to show up in that campaign, because it still has an effect on the setting. A setting where Demons are easily callable by mid level Wizards and have Greater Teleport at will is different from one where they don't. And those difference effect other things. If my fucking PC has any aspect at all (like say, ever at any point tried to go from point A that is far away to point B that is nearby prior to the start of the adventure) then it fucking matters how people communicate over long distances and it fucking matters how easy it is to travel those distances.
Which is why if you are going to drastically change the entire fucking setting by making Gods CR 7 and no one have teleport, then you need to fucking goddam tell me ahead of time that you are going to do that, so that my character makes sense in the drastically different setting. Yes, even if it is a low level one shot.
Fuchs wrote:I am not stealth house ruling anything if I use the rules to reduce the CR of a vrock. If I introduce a wounded and level drained vrock in a teleport-blocked area as an encounter, that's totally covered by the official rules. At least I am not aware of any rule that would force me to only use creatures that are at full health, full spells, and otherwise fully prepared.
Except that is not what K contended at fucking all, and that is not what people have objected to. People have already, many times, including me, told you that we don't give a shit if you use the actual rules that people agreed to to change monsters before. I said you can send 1 HP Vrocks at people all day who are profusely bleeding, and no one cares.
But K is contending that you just have CR 3 Vrocks, not that you have CR 9 Vrocks level drained.
Also, you are an idiot, because a level drained Vrock is going to fucking murder a level 3 party. It still has SR 17, DR 10/good, Resistance 10 to everything it is not immune to, Mirror Image at will, and oh fucking yeah, Spores that do an average of 30 damage to everyone that it can use every 3 rounds.
Even if any parties actually prepared bless, it would still be able to infect the entire party and then use up all their blesses and do it again before they could ever kill it, because its defenses against low level attacks are largely not removed by negative levels.
