The Great Leap Forward in FantasyLand

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:26 am

So, we start with a heavily agrarian nation with substantial amounts of territory and population. The Beloved Leader wants to turn the nation into an economic and industrial rival to its more developed neighbors, and do it FAST. Quotas for food production and overall development are set. These rarely take conditions in local provinces into account.

- Farmers are forced to merge lands and work in large collective farms. The mandated crops are sometimes unsuited to local soils.
- Fancy stone roads start being constructed everywhere, even where they'd get used so little that maintaining them would be economically impractical. This often involves workers drafted away from nearby farms.
- People are made to live in cities. Peasants are taken out of their hovels and given apartments, their old homes are demolished. This means longer walks to their farms, unless they are working the collective farms. The collective farms are placed right next to the cities, often on impractical terrain.
- Shortsighted necromancers start using exponentially higher amounts of undead labor in an attempt to keep The Plan on track. Citizens who fail to meet productivity quotas are transformed into sentient zombies, shambling and awkward, but able to work day and night. A lot of 'political dissidents' die, usually to be brought back as mindless laborers.
- People lie about their quota progress to avoid punishments. The already overstretched bureaucracy has little ability to check on things, and starts setting ever-more-unrealistic goals.
- Death-magic bleedoff from the undead laborers gets all over the place, especially when they work in or near the fields. This synergizes with all off the traumatic deaths from the new social programs and causes angry ghosts, demonic interest, and magically blighted land.

I think we are beginning to have an interesting backdrop for a Temple of the Fiscally Irresponsible Elves scenario.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:35 am

Skeletons don't have any skills, so there are lots of tasks they won't be able to do whether you solve the hygiene problem or not. No skeleton weavers or food preparers, for example. And honestly, that's probably just as well.

Skeletons can make your royal post work really well because they can haul things from point A to point B without rest or shirk. They can also apparently dig trenches and harvest sugar cane from mosquito infested mires. Those are all useful things. But at some point in your economy you're going to need creatures who have actual skills, and them not being made out of decaying material is obviously going to be a plus.

-Username17

Grek · Post by **Grek** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:48 am

K wrote:So yes, building a dark pyramid using undead slaves that blots out the sun with it's evil radiance is something that happens in a fantasy setting with disturbing regularity, but there is no version of "raises the undead to serve my will" where good things happen.

The fuck are you smoking? The actual word zombie comes from a process where you kill* and reanimate people so that they can mindlessly do farm work for you. There are stories that can be told about capitalistic necromancers abducting people to fuel their zombie-ran plantation which do not involve the zombies fouling the crops and cursing the land. Stories that involve demon rum, in fact.

*Yes, I know it's actually just drugs IRL, but this is fantasy, so the fantasy bokors get to raise actual undead.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:50 am

And even if you still want to bone necromancers with "and then bad things happen and everyone contracts deathrot because you have walking bones doing the food prep" then you just create a new kind of golem that just happens to be made from the calciferous refuse of corpses.

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:04 am

"And then Bad Things Happen when the genie lords place a curse on the wizards who enslaved too many of the elemental spirits subject to them. The golems start berserking at inopportune moments."
EDIT:
http://www.somethingawful.com/d/news/go ... dators.php

ckafrica · Post by **ckafrica** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:44 am

You could use "The Magic's Gone Away" theme that over-use of magic causes the mana to disappear. By nature of centuries of the population's needs being provided by magic, no one knows how to take care of even the simplest of mundane tasks.

K · Post by K » Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:45 am

Grek wrote:
K wrote:So yes, building a dark pyramid using undead slaves that blots out the sun with it's evil radiance is something that happens in a fantasy setting with disturbing regularity, but there is no version of "raises the undead to serve my will" where good things happen.
The fuck are you smoking? The actual word zombie comes from a process where you kill* and reanimate people so that they can mindlessly do farm work for you. There are stories that can be told about capitalistic necromancers abducting people to fuel their zombie-ran plantation which do not involve the zombies fouling the crops and cursing the land. Stories that involve demon rum, in fact.

*Yes, I know it's actually just drugs IRL, but this is fantasy, so the fantasy bokors get to raise actual undead.

Haitan zombies are a modern setting, not a fantasy one.

The rules differ because the Haitan zombies are not supposed to be rotting corpses who are brought back from the dead, but farm-slaves who are not allowed to die and so must work eternally at the behest of their slave-masters.

Different mythology equals different stories.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:22 pm

Cynic wrote:shad: Do you know anything about Mao's revolution?

The OP isn't talking about a small scale one-town project. If you do this for a nation and work it properly, the leaders don't really have to care about taxation rebellion.

yes, but look at D&D. there is no giant nation ruled by all in most areas or games. a kingdom isnt an entire continent, and the fears of the D&D peasants are far and wide. new things scare them just as much as the band of goblins down the road.

the "nation" would be about the size of a county or three, with others neighboring it.

you would have to get ALL kingdoms to work together to make sure they dont team up on the one going industrial.

codeGlaze · Post by **codeGlaze** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:30 pm

Avoraciopoctules wrote:So, we start with a heavily agrarian nation with substantial amounts of territory and population. The Beloved Leader wants to turn the nation into an economic and industrial rival to its more developed neighbors, and do it FAST. Quotas for food production and overall development are set. These rarely take conditions in local provinces into account.

- Farmers are forced to merge lands and work in large collective farms. The mandated crops are sometimes unsuited to local soils.
- Fancy stone roads start being constructed everywhere, even where they'd get used so little that maintaining them would be economically impractical. This often involves workers drafted away from nearby farms.
- People are made to live in cities. Peasants are taken out of their hovels and given apartments, their old homes are demolished. This means longer walks to their farms, unless they are working the collective farms. The collective farms are placed right next to the cities, often on impractical terrain.
- Shortsighted necromancers start using exponentially higher amounts of undead labor in an attempt to keep The Plan on track. Citizens who fail to meet productivity quotas are transformed into sentient zombies, shambling and awkward, but able to work day and night. A lot of 'political dissidents' die, usually to be brought back as mindless laborers.
- People lie about their quota progress to avoid punishments. The already overstretched bureaucracy has little ability to check on things, and starts setting ever-more-unrealistic goals.
- Death-magic bleedoff from the undead laborers gets all over the place, especially when they work in or near the fields. This synergizes with all off the traumatic deaths from the new social programs and causes angry ghosts, demonic interest, and magically blighted land.

I think we are beginning to have an interesting backdrop for a Temple of the Fiscally Irresponsible Elves scenario.

I...may actually use a spin on this. >_> Including the mana drain mentioned, too. <_<

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:03 pm

Pre-three laws, that was also the only story for robots too. That genre grew, and is better for it. If skeletons are everyday machines, you can tell stories about a lich that's hiding among them, have some appropriate opportunities for riddle-style puzzles from interacting with their commands, or even Estelle Williamson's Humanoids (think of the plot of the I, Robot movie, with less cheese). Besides, the fantasy Great Leap Forward isn't a genre yet. You can set whatever tropes you want.

But either way, I'd only go with skeletons/zombies for road crews and power sources. Harvesting crops and such is too finicky. Turning a pump to supply a water tower is great though. Or treadmill-powered trains, or whatever. Maybe you also make giant beetle zombie busses, maybe not.

Haunt shift's applications are subtler and cooler. Think relays. Those things go everywhere.

Desdan_Mervolam · Post by **Desdan_Mervolam** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:16 pm

Is there a way to create a post-scarcity economy in D&D? More importantly, is there a way to create a post-scarcity economy in D&D without building it on top of powerful individuals who haven't gotten bored enough yet to say 'fuck this' and port off to fuck summoned demon prostitutes?

I think it would have to involve some sort of object, like the Sampo of Finnish legend but with grander scale.

Once that is done, one big stumbling block to your utopia is gone, as there are far fewer people who could be philosophers, scientist, magicians, engineers and ect, except they have to help Pa bring the harvest in, so they can't really worry about that stuff.

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:06 pm

Infinite, use-activated create food items mostly solves that, and it's cheapish. Really, you want it made as a trap, but that may or not fly. More mundanely (if morbidly), grapple a troll and eat him.

Modern crop yields are enormously larger than hostorical crop yields, so even simple things like "crop rotation" move you much farther from subsistence farming.

Transactional costs also play into things. If you have bad roads, it doesn't matter how much food Farmer Fred grows; he still can't ship it to Potential Philosopher Phill, so Phill also has to farm.

Patronage, a la the Medici family, is a very, very efficient way of jump starting a renaissance. It doesnt magically get you social equality or anything, bug it does get you a technological and artistic revolution. (basically the same thing happened in athens, with crowdsourced patronage, and in Rome, Persia, and Egypt, with fiat patronage). For it to work most simply, you want a group of people who are FILTHY rich, and also decadent.

Vebyast · Post by **Vebyast** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:16 pm

Desdan_Mervolam wrote:Is there a way to create a post-scarcity economy in D&D? More importantly, is there a way to create a post-scarcity economy in D&D without building it on top of powerful individuals who haven't gotten bored enough yet to say 'fuck this' and port off to fuck summoned demon prostitutes?

I think that in the last thread we concluded that this would happen as soon as a chainbinder felt charitable for ten minutes at a stretch. That's approximately how long as it takes for his efreets to churn out enough magic items of Goodberry or Purify Food and Drink to feed every human on Earth indefinitely or to produce enough Decanters of Endless Water and items of Heat Metal to power an instant industrial revolution.

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:49 pm

rings of substenance for everyone?
They cost about 2500 gold. You're given one on your birth. Sleep 2hours a day, and never have to eat? Holy cow, more please.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:24 pm

One could conceivably incentivize one of those high level casters to take a bit of time out of his day by pointing out the sheer number of commoners who practically worship the ground he walked on for improving their lot in life... "possibly literally even..." and let him believe, or outright tell him, that it could be his path to ascension, for just a few minutes, or a few days at most.

K · Post by K » Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:33 pm

Desdan_Mervolam wrote:Is there a way to create a post-scarcity economy in D&D? More importantly, is there a way to create a post-scarcity economy in D&D without building it on top of powerful individuals who haven't gotten bored enough yet to say 'fuck this' and port off to fuck summoned demon prostitutes?

I think it would have to involve some sort of object, like the Sampo of Finnish legend but with grander scale.

I'd just Polymorph up some unintelligent creatures that provide basic goods and their own care as a function of their life-cycle. So pants-trees would grow pants for the people that could be picked and tailored in seconds and edible teacup flowers would grow wild in the fields for people who need teacups and/or were hungry.

This basically leaves humanity to produce unique goods like pornography and philosophy. Sadly, these things should probably not be handled by magically-transformed plant creatures.

talozin · Post by **talozin** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:37 pm

High-level spellcasters are sort of the equivalent of industry in D&D-land. So if I were trying to mimic "rapid industrialization", the obvious way to go would be "mass-produce spellcasters". And that sounds retarded, but I could actually see "find everyone capable of becoming a spellcaster and train them to do so" as a semi-plausible scheme. You'd have a lot of attrition in the low levels, but it wouldn't really take more than a couple of high-level wizards or clerics to get the ball rolling with extremely high-quality equipment for the new guys to tilt the odds in their favor, and eventually it just becomes one massive pyramid scheme where you're trained by a high level guy, go out and adventure with higher-level support available while being the high level support for lower level guys, and eventually train some new 1st level guys yourself.

You'd wind up adventuring your own local territory out fairly quickly, because you'd have a lot of low-level guys running around hitting the low-level adventuring grounds, so once it got off the ground you'd see the empire sending adventuring parties of low-level guys out to neighboring territories to "clean them out" and not coincidentally grab all the loot and experience to be found in them, kind of like imperialism except instead of gold and slaves, what you're importing from your colonies is the mojo that makes people badass adventurers.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:49 pm

K wrote:
Desdan_Mervolam wrote:Is there a way to create a post-scarcity economy in D&D? More importantly, is there a way to create a post-scarcity economy in D&D without building it on top of powerful individuals who haven't gotten bored enough yet to say 'fuck this' and port off to fuck summoned demon prostitutes?

I think it would have to involve some sort of object, like the Sampo of Finnish legend but with grander scale.

I'd just Polymorph up some unintelligent creatures that provide basic goods and their own care as a function of their life-cycle. So pants-trees would grow pants for the people that could be picked and tailored in seconds and edible teacup flowers would grow wild in the fields for people who need teacups and/or were hungry.

This basically leaves humanity to produce unique goods like pornography and philosophy. Sadly, these things should probably not be handled by magically-transformed plant creatures.

I totally want to put a grove of porn and philosophy trees in my next game...

Shatner · Post by **Shatner** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:01 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:Skeletons don't have any skills, so there are lots of tasks they won't be able to do whether you solve the hygiene problem or not. No skeleton weavers or food preparers, for example. And honestly, that's probably just as well.

Skeletons can make your royal post work really well because they can haul things from point A to point B without rest or shirk. They can also apparently dig trenches and harvest sugar cane from mosquito infested mires. Those are all useful things. But at some point in your economy you're going to need creatures who have actual skills, and them not being made out of decaying material is obviously going to be a plus.

-Username17

Skeletons are awesome but, as Frank points out they have their limitations. As others have pointed out, having a benevolent necro-topia doesn't sit well with some; these people call for narrative causality to come in and spontaneously cause the plan to fail via some handwaving about negative energy pollution or mindless undead going on poorly explained berserk murder sprees. While I don't agree with that mindset, that sort of push-back should be recognized.

I was always fond of using Formian Workers for all my "rapidly summoned, skilled workforce" needs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/formian.htm#worker). They each come with Skill Focus: Craft and are very orderly little workers. Groups of them can spam Cure Serious Wounds and Make Whole, they are immune to or have resistance-10 to all damage types except acid, and they are complete immunity to poison. This means there is almost no industrial setting that is inherently dangerous to them. Plus, they are small (3ft tall), have a move speed of 40, have a +10 climb check, and can each carry 150 pounds, making them mobile little workers. Just have some of your wizards contact a Fomorian Queen or three and offer them some useful items in exchange for a 10-year labor contract for (several?) hundred of her workers with the skills you specify. The hives have ludicrous numbers of the little guys anyway, and can always spawn more, so both sides feel like they're getting a good deal. Plus, these are lawful outsiders so the odds of insubordination or a contract breach are vanishingly small.

EDIT: This labor force could then be used to turn King Daxal's one-horse kingdom into someplace with actual infrastructure. Eventually you'll want natives to take over production, but it's a good way to get your bootstraps elevated without too much fuss. Plus, large forces of undead/elementals tend to make adventurers and neighboring kingdoms anxious, but a bunch of halfling-sized worker-ants are pretty explicitly non-aggressive.

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:09 pm

Shatner wrote:EDIT: This labor force could then be used to turn King Daxal's one-horse kingdom into someplace with actual infrastructure. Eventually you'll want natives to take over production, but it's a good way to get your bootstraps elevated without too much fuss. Plus, large forces of undead/elementals tend to make adventurers and neighboring kingdoms anxious, but a bunch of halfling-sized worker-ants are pretty explicitly non-aggressive.

What?!

They're Formians! Of course they're aggressive! They fully intend to conquer everything and make it their slaves!

At least skeletons will only try to do that if the wizard tells them to.

Korgan0 · Post by **Korgan0** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:30 pm

Formians are, but the workers are just mindless drones. If you have some way of stopping the Queen from stabbing you in the back, be it threats, blackmail, or even just a healthy trading relationship, then you're totally fine.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:03 pm

Thus begins the quest to magically enslave a Formian queen. That actually sounds like a pretty cool plot for a plot-arc.

There's something interesting and on-topic. What are some interesting general plot arcs or specific adventures revolving around taking an iron age hellscape and turning it into a post-scarcity magical utopia? Tippyversing is only a partial success at best; huge chunks of the world and population still live in constant terror of monster attacks even if the cities (whose self-sufficiency is never explained anyway) are basically free of all trouble.

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:15 pm

Plot arc 1: Conquer a City-State by hook or by crook.
In order to industrialize, you need a population base and existing infrastructure. Sure, you can have your minions build infrastructure for you, but that potentially invites attack. It's far faster to take a pre-existing infrastructure and improve upon it.

If it's one of those "Good" city-states, you can do it via politics or via seduction. If it's Evil, your job is a whole lot easier, since you don't have to worry so much about maintaining a facade of legitimacy.

The ideal adventure here is against an Evilstan ruled by the iron fist of a level five blackguard who got the job by murdering the previous iron-fisted dictator. You knock him off and people will follow your orders without question. The previous guy has already cowed the populace with mass impalings, so you just have to bluster and threaten a bit.

Plot Arc 2, Eminent Domain: Congratulations, you are now the Kings of Evilstan. Your lovely new domain is home of such features as the Troll Hills, the Fire Giant Mountain, The Black Dragon Swamp, and the Dyrad Woods. You have some excellent public works project in mind. You're going to build up your infrastructure, create roads, and all that good stuff. You just have to level the hills, drain the swamp, drill a tunnel through the mountain, and clearcut the woods. The only problem is that the people living in those places don't seem to get your vision, so you have to explain it to them in terms that they can understand.

Plot Arc 3, Job Creation: Excellent, you've gotten rid of those annoying freeloaders, and have a bitchin new pair of black dragonscale boots. Now you need labor. Oh sure, there are plenty of unskilled laborors in Evilstan, but not nearly enough for the sheer scale of your plans. You need many more. You could raise an army of the undead, but that's really a lot of work. Golems and summons take a lot of effort, too. What you really need are immigrants. Preferably Mexicans, but Mexico probably doesn't exist in your setting so that's a problem.

How do you get immigrants? That's easy. If Evilstan is better than all the other city-states around you, then immigrants will flock to your gates. But you need Immigrants to make Evilstan better, you say? Of course, that's true, but that's perfectly alright. You don't have to make Evilstan better right away. You can make everyone else worse.

Covertly sow plagues, economic devastation, political instability, and outright war amongst your neighbors. Soon, you'll have wave upon wave of desperate refugees flocking to Evilstan.

Plot Arc 4, Building up and Building Out: I'm reminded of a quote from one of my favorite films. It's totally wrong. Where we're going we will need roads, lots of roads. Build roads , form trade agreements, become a hub of commerce. Equip thouse roads with checkpoints and have them patrolled regularly. This protects travelers. It also makes it more difficult for enemies to move their armies along your infrastructure while letting you move your troops with ease. But you wouldn't use your road network to militarily dominate the region, would you? Of course you would.

Plot Arc 5, Constitution is more than a Stat: So now that you military dominate the region, there are some concepts that you need to explain to the primitive screwheads, like equal rights, universal franchise, and due process. Even the good guys really don't get that the King shouldn't be able to execute people on a whim, just try explaining bicameral legislatures to orks and goblins. You've got to clear-out the bandits and civilize the savages (or kill the savages. Kill, civilize, they're practically the same thing). Forcibly bring the barbarian tribes into your cities and introduce them to things like firewater and boarding schools. They'll thank you for it, really.

codeGlaze · Post by **codeGlaze** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:27 pm

Can we have a trophy, badge or some other 'award' system for posts?
Because this deserves one.

Enjoyable reading right here! xD

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:14 pm

I have at least one player who would love for a campaign to be "become Rome"